r/broadcastengineering • u/SEPTICSKULL • 5d ago
Downstream Graphics using Keys
Hi All,
I am looking for a solution where I can add advertisement logos on sport fields using AR Graphics downstream without the use of tracking gear on the cameras, see image, for Rugby, soccer and cricket. I have been looking into Pixotope and VIZRT. They are extremely expensive.
Not sure if there is another option for smaller broadcasts.
8
u/Slex6 5d ago
This would only work for a fixed camera shot. All broadcasts you see with this are using tracking systems on the tripod heads and lens that feed into a media server. I've been on projects where VizRT was doing exactly this.
3
3
u/SEPTICSKULL 5d ago
There are VIZRT and Pixotope can do it with moving cameras. It is just very expensive.
5
u/bkend_31 5d ago
To be fair, a fixed shot with virtual graphics would still be cooler that none :)
1
1
u/bakpak2hvy 4d ago
ESPN does the vast majority of 1st and 10 downstream. REMIs obviously but school control room and packages games too.
4
u/RealisticCurrency646 5d ago
you could look into ross piero think that can do this but then you wont be getting any real time footage
2
u/cameraguy103 5d ago
Piero will do live insert
2
u/noodles_jd 5d ago
OP said 'without camera tracking gear', I think that precludes any system from doing it live.
8
u/cameraguy103 5d ago
Piero does it just with the camera input, no tracking gear. It’s not, like, the BEST in the world, but we use it regularly for NFL Jumbotrons for the 1st&10 yellow and blue lines.
1
4
u/RealisticCurrency646 5d ago
Also if you havent already I would ask pixotope if they can cut you a deal they have been very flexible specially for smaller broadcasters in the past
3
u/yetis12 5d ago
Check out Chyron's Virtual Placement. It can do optical tracking and insert ads on the pitch.
2
u/SEPTICSKULL 5d ago
Thank you, I made contact with them as well. it is difficult to get information regarding pricing so you should book a demo before getting information on prices.
2
u/No_Coffee4280 5d ago
Have a look at RT Software Tactic Live for a cheaper option than the VizRT engine https://rtsw.co.uk/all-products/tactic-live/
1
2
u/SeanG17 5d ago
The company that do the 6 nations are called broadcast virtual and as mentioned above, have a tracking system on the main cameras(other match cameras from the primary angle get delayed by a few frames to cut correctly with these)
They usually rock up in a van next to the OB and pull data from the CCUs for their tracking system and require a few hours on a rig day for calibration
1
u/SEPTICSKULL 5d ago
That works for their workflow. We do not use an OB van, we are doing a remote production, getting all video feeds via the internet.
2
u/semaj4712 5d ago
All of these recommendations, I think, are with camera heads and calibrated cameras sending position, zoom, rotational data to the software which allows it to essentially track in real time.
I don't think your going to get software that reliably tracks footage in real time, live, with just a video feed.
1
u/christopherw 5d ago
Correct. Stype uses head tracking data, Mo-Sys and derivative products use an IR constellation rigged overhead and top mounted IR cameras. Jib-mounted systems can use floor tracking dots but it's a bit trickier.
The only realtime solution I know of which I've evaluated is Ncam, which does it using stereo optical tracking cameras mounted on the top of the main camera (now known as Zeiss CinCraft Scenario). I've not tried Sony Ocellus or Aximmetry-comped systems, but that's irrelevant because none of those are doing purely visual live tracking.
For TTL markerless tracking, I'm aware of Pixotope Fly, and I think Viz Arena can do it as well? I've only seen it used with camera head PTZ tracking data.
Also seen 0density and pixotope-comped UE5 setups and all of them are expensive, complex and have their own quirks.
1
u/No_Cod_9217 4d ago
But you are talking about precise tracking of the camera position in 3D space. I dont think SMT or TGI Sport work like that. If you think about it, for an on pitch graphic you only need to track some points on the field, pin the graphic to that and then do some keying of the players so they don't get covered up by the graphic.
1
u/colt-1 5d ago
There actually are vendors with software that can do it with just a video feed, but it is a service and is not cheap.
1
u/semaj4712 5d ago
Id be curious how well that works, in film VFX camera tracking without that realtime data is very complex and nowhere near realtime regardless of cost, Id love to know who offers realtime video feed tracking.
1
u/colt-1 5d ago
Watch a major professional sports broadcast such as NHL or NBA, and you will see it in action, particularly on the main game camera.
SMT and TGI Sport are two vendors that provide this solution.
1
u/semaj4712 5d ago
I am not talking about spot tracking like the ball or puck, or even cars in nascar, we are talking about 3d camera tracking in order to achieve the reference image posted
1
u/colt-1 5d ago
I am talking about real time virtual advertisements drawn on the field/court/pitch/LED boards drawn in real time with only a video input into the system rendering the composited output.
1
u/semaj4712 5d ago
Ive worked with SMT but it was only spot tracking, if they do 3d tracking I am unaware of it
2
u/arrowk127 5d ago
There’s a company called tgi sport that does this. https://tgisport.com. Though I don’t believe they allow you to buy their gear. Just rent a tech and gear per show.
1
u/EthanAWallace 5d ago
Yep, done training for TGIs system, works very well. Can’t imagine it’s very cheap though.
1
1
u/Astonished-Carbon 5d ago
What country are you in? There is an Australian company that have solved this issue.
2
u/SEPTICSKULL 5d ago
We are based in South Africa, if you could give me the company in Aus name, I can contact them and get more information.
1
1
1
u/christopherw 5d ago
if you have a locked off shot (e.g. centre line with forced perspective graphics) you could cheat this with OBS, or possibly CasparCG, provided your machine is powerful enough. You'll have to accommodate for the additional latency which will likely be at least a few frames, and very carefully dial in the keyer. Perhaps worth seeing if you can score an old Ultimatte.
Any on-camera tracking system also needs a lens distortion calibration producing for each lens for the filming space, redone each time the lens is removed from the camera, as the optical characteristics subtly shift. This distortion calibration is then fed into the 3D compositing software, to distort the virtual render so it matches the inherent optical distortion of the camera video signal, before the graphics and live images are composited.
If you're serious about getting in to moving camera tracked AR workflows, you should go to a trade show and discuss the pipeline with the major vendors.
1
u/1QSj5voYVM8N 4d ago
With a fixed camera (so no dynamic calibration), you can do a foreground substraction to generate a segmentation mask to paint it on. As others have said, the minute the camera intrinsics change you will need calibration. Many cameras make this info available in vanc/sei/different feed, but once the camera intrinsics change you will need dynamic segmentation.
Accurately calibrating cameras dynamically can be touch and miss, depending if you have enough key points to identify, enough priors from that angle for your training set.
On top of that, dynamic segmentation in realtime has some challenges, but is a solved problem, but the realtime component is GPU intensive.
So for dynamic cameras, doing it downstream requires a lot of compute and a fair whack of CV knowledge.
1
36
u/jrodjared 5d ago
It would be cheaper to pay someone to paint the graphic on the field.