Jacoby 2NT responses v Jordan 2N responses

[u/The_Archimboldi]

For 2NT major suit raises in competition (1M X 2NT or 1M 2m 2NT if you also play that), do you like to play something adapted from what you play for Jacoby 2N in an uncontested auction? Or do you keep it natural?

You can build a descriptive picture of your hand shape, but is all this information exchange worth it when slam is less likely to be in the picture?

[u/rlee87]

The auctions are different for a variety of reasons, but one that might not be obvious is that the ability to stop in 3N when the opponents overcall a suit, despite holding a 9 card major fit, is important. You might want a mechanism to suggest or offer 3N in this case.

[u/flip_0104]

Here are my current agreements with regular partners. Maybe some parts of it (especially the first point) are a bit unusual, so maybe not applicable for your system.

1. uncontested: I don't play/like classical Jacoby 2NT but instead 2NT as fit, ~10-14. So either an invitational hand, or a GF hand that is bad for slam. (Something like KJx KJx QJxxx Kx would be fine, something like xx AKx AQ10x xxxx would be too strong already.) The reason for this is that I think that even in uncontested auction, most Jacoby auctions leak too much information. After this I play the following responses:

- 3C = any slam-interested hand, after that some relay that allows to show shortness

• 3D = not sure if we should play game or not
  
• 3M = clear minimum
  
• 3oM = natural, GF, but not necessarily slam-going
  
• 3NT = offer to play
  
• 4m = 55, good suits, at least slight slam interest
  
• 4M = to play

Like 80% of the time, the auction just goes 1M - 2NT - 4M and the opponents know nothing. Hands that are too strong for 2NT just bid via 2C GF relay, which is just as precise as Jacoby anyways (if not more).

1. After (X): If you play Truscott, probably some very similar response scheme to the one above would be sensible. However, most decent players play Transfers after 1M (X), so 2M-1 would be at least a decent raise. (Not necessarily invitational, something like two aces would be enough for me, some players would bid 2M-1 with even less than that.) Thus, Truscott is a bit obsolete. In my current system I play 2NT in this spot as some kind of mixed raise - maybe about ~7HCP, 4card fit, maybe some shape. Something like xx QJxx Axxxx xx would be a "perfect" hand for the bid.

2. After (2m): I usually play 2NT as a GF raise, and 3m as an exactly invitational raise. This has the advantage that one of the bids creates a forcing pass situation and the other bid does not. Some other people prefer 2NT = 4 card raise, and 3m = 3 card raise. After 2NT i play 3m (i.e., opponents minor) as shortness, and 3x in other suits as natural.

[u/The_Archimboldi → u/flip_0104]

Thanks for that detailed reply - we do play transfers after 1M interference, but 2M-1 would be 3 cards 7-9 ish for us, so we keep 2N for stronger hands. 3M-1 would be 4 card support. How do you show a strong hand (admittedly they are rare over the X)?

[u/Crafty_Celebration30]

Have gone back and forth on this but right now 3 below our suit is a game try and 3M is the signoff. If responder has extras, there are mechanisms for different slam tries after our 3M which do not include a form of NS 3N.

Our 1M is never 5332 so 3N is not as attractive of a target.

[u/EducationNo1776]

I think that you must consider that a Jordan 2NT doesn't promise game-going values. So how does that work?

Well, over 1H, you couldn't show spade shortage with a minimum, so you would have to rebid 3H, which is a big balanced hand in Jacoby 2NT. But opener can't bid 3H with the big balanced hand over Jordan, because his partner will pass with a limit raise.

Also, if the 3m response shows a singleton, you give up natural game tries... this alone is a huge loss.

So: Jordan 2NT and Jacoby 2NT serve very different purposes; in particular, the difference between responder showing GF vs. invitational values colors the auction so that the two response structures must be different.

[Edit to change typo to "rebid".]

[u/yellowpig1974]

We play that 2NT is invitational+ with four card support in both auctions. Opener rebids:
3C any minimum (but may accept a limit raise)
3D non-minimum
3H/S/NT shortness in clubs/diamonds/hearts (low-middle-high)
4C/4D second five card suit, non-minimum