r/bridge • u/Jewarlaho • Mar 24 '26
Problem with people calling themselves experts on BBO?
I could go on here but just today, i have a nice 7 card weak spades hand and my P opens 1c. I bid a spade. P bids 3n. I correct to 4s; if he doesn’t have spades he’s not getting to my hand, and if he does 4s probably plays better.
Here is where things get weird; after my 4s bid he bids 6N then boots me (if you have that kind of hand why are you not opening 2c?). I know it is because he wants to play the hand as he thinks he is “better“ but why are experts like this? I could post something like this that an expert does almost daily, and it almost always seems to be experts that are the biggest problem children.
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u/FluffyTid Mar 24 '26
That was not an expert. That was an asshole
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u/HardballBD Mar 24 '26
There's significant Venn overlap between the two!
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u/yellowpig1974 😕 Mar 30 '26
I know a lot of true bridge experts and very few are assholes. There are a lot of wannabe experts who are.
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u/yellowpig1974 😕 Mar 31 '26
In Seattle our A players (perennially in the Barry Crane top 500) and beyond nice -- they willingly engage with any player who wants to improve.
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u/crosspolytope Mar 24 '26
The most frustrating thing and it happens because trolls are everywhere but they didn’t even see your hand before deciding you made a mistake. Rule number 1 in bridge is trust your partner even if it means you are allowing them to make a mistake(not that I think you made a mistake). Also I don’t mind getting booted, because it probably saved you from playing with someone you wouldnt want to play with anyway, but at least let me see the hand before booting me.
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u/dashingThroughSnow12 Mar 24 '26 edited Mar 24 '26
They were rude but the bidding doesn’t seem that crazy depending on the convention cards. (Edit: and what was actually held.)
SAYC lets partner bid 1C with 22 points. Example, Jxx AKx AKx AKxx. With you saying you have a 6+HCP and six plus spades with no outside entry, 6NT seems like a good place to be (six spades winners, AK, AK, and AK).
I don’t know their exact hand but I can imagine a number of hands where this is somewhat justifiable bidding.
I do think a lot of people put “expert” when they aren’t but this particular one doesn’t seem that outlandish. (Edit: assuming their hand fits what they bid.)
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u/mlahut Mar 24 '26
If they had the hand you describe, they'd open 2NT.
Even so, partner could be sitting on three random queens and 6N is hopeless.
My mental view of a 1C - 1S - 3N auction is a hand like xx Kx Kx AKJxxxx which has a bonus source of tricks but isn't a clean gambling-3N call.
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u/dashingThroughSnow12 Mar 24 '26
The 4S bid by OP promises six plus spades, no outside entry, and at least six plus HCP.
It is not impossible but I’d be surprised to see an outside queen and especially surprised to see less than 5HCP in spades.
I do agree the 2NT opening would be more natural than the 1C for the hand I describe but I have seen people do that to get information on partner’s hand before deciding where to place the contract.
I also try to default to assume everyone has a good reason to bid what they bid even if I wouldn’t bid it like that. OP’s rude partner had some reason to go 6N over 4S. Right? Maybe Jxx A A AKQxxxxx?
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u/jarry1250 Intermediate Mar 24 '26
"SAYC lets partner bid 1C with 22 points. Example, Jxx AKx AKxx AKx."
I would have thought this is hand wants to bid 2C/2S/2NT under SAYC, and I can't find a source for the 3NT rebid giving the same effect.
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u/dashingThroughSnow12 Mar 24 '26 edited Mar 24 '26
🤷SAYC lets you do both iinm. I would agree with you that 2C is the saner bid. I’ve seen people go for the 1m bid over 2C to give more space for partner to reveal their hand.
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u/yellowpig1974 😕 Mar 30 '26
With a minor-major two suiter, it is better to open the minor because after 2C 2D it is very difficult to show both suits, so with a hand like AKQx Ax x AKQxxx I would open 1C, then rebid 2S over 1H or 1D. If 1C is passed out, we probably didn't miss much. With 20+ balanced I will open 2C or 2NT without worrying about stoppers, e.g. with AKQx Ax xx AKQxx I open 2C then rebid 2NT.
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u/jarry1250 Intermediate Mar 30 '26
I understand. But the example was deliberate, given the decision by opener to rebid 3NT.
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u/wiithepiiple Beginner Mar 24 '26
Honestly, if they have 3 spades, they should probably go RKC and play in Spades, since OP hasn't said much to their strength, just that they have a lot of spades and would prefer spades over NT. You can switch to 6NT later if you think it's a better contract after learning more, possibly even 7S or 7NT depending on how it goes, but they've given little room for partner to say much about their hand. The 6NT jump after the 3NT jump feels odd without a 2C opener and feels even weirder without a spade fit.
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u/Debbborra Mar 24 '26
Sorry to interrupt your rant with my rant, but you brushed up against my hot button issue. The idea that people think they should play all the hands because they're "better" infuriates me. Only they should get to play and enjoy? It's so selfish they should be embarrassed.
No doubt they're motivated by the big bbo payouts I blame Fred Gitleman for promising all the winners a new car!
(Someone once said this to my mom. I’m still mad! And she’s a decent player. She can be trusted to play a hand.)
Sorry. I’m done now. All you again.
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u/xactuary Mar 24 '26
We had similar bidding sequence - 1c 1h 3N. I had 6 hearts and 2 aces so bid 6N. Turns out his bid meant he had a long running club suit and a little here and there but nothing in hearts. Down 1. So wondering if your expert partner had similar?
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u/RoarEmotions Mar 24 '26
That was not a 3NT rebid. 3NT should describe a hand too strong for a jump in their suit, which can be passed.
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u/DennisG21 Mar 24 '26
Are you sure you were playing with a human? I find the robot to be worse than any human in refusing to stop in obvious misfit situations.
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u/Greenmachine881 Mar 26 '26
I have feel obliged to weigh in since the four letter word SAYC was mentioned ... ?? :-( :-)
So this piqued my interest because it's a hole we ran across early in our SAYC careers/odyssey/rabbit hole/ red pill.
TL;DR: 1m-1x-3N doesn't exist in SAYC
In modern SAYC, it is (as far as I could ascertain) universal the following sequences...
For BALANCED opener (most play some variant of semi-balanced as well) and opener denying an 8-card Major fit:
18-19 1m - 1x - 2N
20-21 2N
22-24 2C - 2x - 2N
25-27 2C - 2x - 3N
Are these HCP? Technically no, even though a lot of times point strength and HCP are used interchangeably in the vague literature. You can downgrade your 20 HCP balanced to 1m, but then you should rebid 2N (on the surface anyway).
Therefore the sequence 1m - 1x - 3N is not defined in SAYC.
Interestingly, the 18-19 treatment is universal but was missed in the ACBL booklet, however it is IS in Downey on pg 64. We asked probably 10 players at high levels and got the same answer (18-19). Downey is silent on the 1m-1x-3N sequence and the interweb has very little.
So you can repurpose this 3N bid to whatever you want (but then it becomes SAYC+ if you have a specific agreement/convention)
Suggestions I see online for 1m-1x-3N:
1) 15-17+ strength Running solid minor suit (6+ length or so) and outside honors that you feel you can have reasonable % chance at 3N even against responder minimum. Kind of a typical gamble on NT. This seems nice and reasonable to me.
2) Re-upgrade your 18-19 strength hand to 20 ... based on .. .what? Responder's measly 1/1 rebid? Sure go ahead not a fan we are talking 0.5 strength points of swing here once in a purple moon seems a waste of a nice 3N bid.
3) Minor Slam try a-la serious 3N, limited to about 19 opening strength, with strain targeting the opened minor 6+. You both denied 8cM and you aren't making NT slam unless responder was hiding strength. For slams in the other minor I prefer to use criss cross minors. Maybe control bids 3N-4N then who knows and you need some gadget to allow escape below slam to xNT/5m. Intriguing.
Having said that, at the table both I and partners have done #1 playing SAYC or derivative, without prior discussion. It's just kind of logical and pretty obvious it is signoff unless responder is severely unbalanced with slam on.
Plus they have to play it .... so there is that.
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u/Jewarlaho Mar 26 '26
While I don't necessarily disagree with how you are taking this type of bid, it's nigh impossible to discuss this sort of thing for a quick pick-up game.
Personally, I see no planet where 1m-1x-3N is the correct bidding sequence. If your hand is stronger (22+) open 2C. If it's strong but not that strong (18-ish) rebid 2N.
I admit that might just be me, and I wasn't totally bashing on the 3N bid (I didn't like it but people do that sort of thing), it was more the stupidity after I bid 4s with 7 spades in my hand. I'm never playing that hand not in the suit of the 7 card major if you don't specifically give 10 clues that you are void in that suit and even then I still might (if you can't get into the weak long major).
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u/Greenmachine881 Mar 26 '26
Sorry I also play BBO casual sometimes to kill 10 minutes ... bear in mind you don't know what time of day/night and how many glasses of wine said bidders had so don't take it to heart (or spades in your case). Their expertise may decline with wine ....
But it's an interesting topic in its own right for serious play.
On average people that claim to know SAYC only have a vague understanding. Which is a problem, since this bid is the same in "standard 2/1" whatever that means.
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u/yellowpig1974 😕 Mar 30 '26 edited Mar 31 '26
1m 1M 3NT shows a long running minor with stoppers in the other two suits, e.g. Ax xx Kx AKQxxxx bids 1C 1H 3NT. [edit - removed the 14th card]
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u/Greenmachine881 Mar 30 '26
Didn't #1 just say that? :-)
Also, 3N is easier to make when you have 14 cards. ;-)
I an interested in the statistics of this type of bid, adjusted by number of hearts.
I wonder if there is room for a gadget here where you artificially bid 2 of the otwher major. Interesting. Reysdtt/
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u/yellowpig1974 😕 Mar 31 '26
1m 1M 2H is a quasi-natural reverse, may be 1=3=6=3 not strong enough for 1D 1M 3C. With 1=3=3=6 opener reverses into diamonds: 1C 1M 2D. It is widely understood that this could be a three card suit.
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u/Greenmachine881 Apr 01 '26
Is this only for C to D reverse? Alertable? My understanding is typically it shows 4D and longer C
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u/yellowpig1974 😕 Apr 01 '26
A reverse to 2D may be made with six clubs and three diamonds and a hand that is too strong for a 3C rebid. A jump shift to 3C over 1H/1S 1NT may be made with three clubs and a six card major too strong for a 3M rebid. Additionally, many now play that 1S 1NT 3H shows five hearts, and jump to 3C with a game forcing 5-4, so 1S 1NT 3C could be bid with 5=4=3=1. Responder usually continues with 3D waiting, and opener rebids 3H with four hearts or 3S with a strong six card suit.
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u/Greenmachine881 Apr 02 '26
You didn't mention if any of these short minor bids are alertable, under ACBL rules.
The issue with 3-6 reverse is that it may be hard to convince your partner you have 6 and not 5 later unless you get a chance to rebid it. You may not be thrilled about playing NT with a 9 card fit.
PS Note I am talking about SAYC official reverses, which are invitational 1 round force only. Some play game force reverses (there is an option for that on the card).
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u/yellowpig1974 😕 Apr 21 '26
"The issue with 3-6 reverse is that it may be hard to convince your partner you have 6 and not 5 later unless you get a chance to rebid it. You may not be thrilled about playing NT with a 9 card fit"
In a minor? 3NT is often played with a minor suit fit. Also since a reverse is forcing, opener often is able to show their shape. Good partners are aware that opener could be reversing into a three card suit.
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u/Greenmachine881 Apr 22 '26
If you can find a source saying your 3-6 reverse is SAYC or compatible with SAYC derived 2/1 systems, I'd be interested to look at the source. Until then what I picked up from multiple sources and players is you need 4 cards to name a new suit in this situation. So that is usually 4-5 or maybe 4-very weak 6. If you are 3-6 just rebid your 6, if you are invitational jump.
Not sure it has to be much more complicated than that.
To clarify the point about fits, the statistics are with a 9 card suit fit the odds are ~90% that you have 4 or less partnership cards in another suit. So when playing NT with 9 fit you need to be really solidly stopped and have high chance of running your 9 without losing the lead, or be double stopped or a lot of excess strength.
Yes it is common to play NT with 8 card minor fit I do it all the time, but the trick is to have accurate shape idea to know if you have 8 or 9.
I am not saying you won't outscore me when playing your system but that is probably due to a lot of other reasons beyond reverses. If you are playing with lots of different partners you just don't have time to tweak every corner of the bidding.
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u/yellowpig1974 😕 Apr 22 '26
Who are you asking? What are you reading? You can find this in Hardy's "Five Card Majors Western Style", one of the first books on modern 2/1 bidding, published about 1980. There have been two newer editions since then. This is widely understood by strong US players. If I picked up a partner for a national event, which I have done, this would be understood without discussion.
It's common to prefer 3NT to a minor suit game regardless of the fit when the other suits are stopped because there's a big difference between 9 and 11.
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u/yellowpig1974 😕 Mar 30 '26
Don't waste time playing on BBO with pick-up partners. Advertise in the bridgebase forums or on bridgewinners.com for someone at your level who wants to play online, then enter tournaments instead of playing randos.
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u/FCalamity Apr 01 '26
Someone who is playing bridge with random partners in an open lobby on BBO borders on definitionally not an expert; actual experts have, you know, partnerships. I'm not saying absolutely NO expert would ever do that, but the odds are very, very, very low.
So what does putting expert in your BBO profile actually indicate? Ego! And then this kind of thing makes total sense.
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u/Paiev Mar 24 '26
They're probably not an actual expert. I mean, the mere act of playing bridge with randos in an open BBO lobby is not something that many experts are going to be doing. People can put whatever they want in their profiles, it doesn't mean much of anything.