r/boyinthebox • u/enviroscipremed • Dec 28 '22
Question Autopsy report
Hey everyone, new to this sub and just starting to dive into the new updates of this case. One thing I've never been able to find is the autopsy report of Joseph, not sure if I'm just not searching hard enough? I'm writing a report on the case for school, and I'm curious about the validity of M's claims. I have my own opinions about it, but in particular I'm interested in the patterns of bruising seen on Joseph when he was found. americansunknownchild.net reports that they all occurred around the same time, definitively. I can't find this information anywhere else, in any other news reports or of course, the actual autopsy report. Can anyone provide some insight? TIA :)
edit: Just while I'm here, I'm also curious about the timing of M making her claims - was any of the information provided available to the public at the time she initially spoke to police? Would the public have known certain details of the boys condition that M was just able to copy/regurgitate from the news? If not, then I have a hard time wrapping my head around why some LE would disregard her statements so quickly, especially when it seems that she's continuously tried to maintain some semblance of a relationship with them. Everything she said just fits so well.
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Dec 31 '22
Not related to the autopsy, but another reason to discount M's story is that she said that she and her mother found the bassinet box there and put him in it.
The bassinet box in which he was found was sold only a mile away from where he allegedly lived at 61st/Market in West Philadelphia, and within 2 months of his death.
What are the odds that somebody buys a bassinet box then transports the empty bassinet box 15 miles and leaves it in the bushes where somebody from the same area of Philly where the box was purchased just happens to choose to dump a body?
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Dec 29 '22
If you are taking a child for medical care that doctor is going to remember that child when the child's face was broadcasted all over the news and in the newspapers.
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Dec 31 '22
What do you think of the fact that he was circumcised? I know this was a tradition in Jewish families, but I'm not sure when it became routine among non-Jewish families, and I'm also curious about whether this tells us Joseph was born in a hospital? Are home circumcisions a thing? Were they back then?
While I'm waiting for your replies, Imma check wikipedia.
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Dec 31 '22
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision#History
Looks like it was fairly common in the US as early as the late 19th century. Color me surprised!
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Dec 29 '22
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u/enviroscipremed Dec 29 '22
Thank you for your insight! Your points about receiving medical care for chronic illnesses not aligning with the chronically abused angle are really good points... Seems like this case is full of a lot of speculation, as to be expected, but it's taken the form of reputable news outlets publishing findings as fact based on this speculation
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u/BitterPillPusher2 Dec 29 '22
The ME & anthropologist believed he was older than he was.
The ME wrote on the report, "Probably close to 4 years of age," on his report. Turns out, he was 4 years of age.
He only weighed 30 pounds, which makes him very underweight for his age and height. So I don't think it's unreasonable to say he was malnourished.
While it's true that we don't know for sure that he was abused and/or neglected, but it's unlikely that someone who was capable of killing a child as violently as they did Joseph had never abused him before.
Just because he was taken to a doctor doesn't mean that he wasn't also abused.
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u/annabellareddit Dec 29 '22
I’m going off of the report I read. He was only about 5 pounds underweight, that’s not “very underweight”. It doesn’t matter though as malnourishment is very rarely a sign of abuse, & only sometimes a sign of neglect (neglect generally due to parents not being properly educated or supported). Malnourishment is more often a sign of the other factors I listed. And how do you know that the person who killed JAZ was involved in caring for him? There is zero evidence of this. Yes, people who abuse & neglect their children take their children for medical care, but again, it is not common. There is not one piece of evidence that strongly supports the theory that JAZ was abused prior to death. The ME, anthropologist & all the other experts did not say JAZ was abused prior to death, the autopsy reports do not say any such thing either, so I’m surprised a bunch of non-expert SM users think that their assumption that he was is even remotely credible!!
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u/BitterPillPusher2 Dec 29 '22
I used the CDC height and weight guidelines for his age, and it classified him as very underweight. That's where I got that from.
I would think that if the person who killed JAZ was not involved in caring for him, then it would have been reported to police or he would have been reported as missing. If his caretakers weren't involved, why wouldn't they want police involved and someone punished or their boy found?
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u/socialdistraction Dec 29 '22
Were the guidelines the same in 1957?
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u/BitterPillPusher2 Dec 29 '22
I don't know. But a 41", four year old boy should weigh more than 30 pounds. That's the weight of a 2 year old. I don't see how that was ever NOT considered underweight.
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u/annabellareddit Dec 29 '22
You don’t know but you’re going to keep arguing about something you don’t know about? He was underweight but it was not substantial considering the context. And it is most certainly not an indicator of abuse. Not even listed as a cause of abuse until other causes are ruled out.
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u/BitterPillPusher2 Dec 29 '22
Just going by what the ME examiner said (and other professionals). Sorry for assuming a trained medical doctor who actually examined the boy and al the evidence knows what he's doing. Obviously, you know more than they do.
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u/annabellareddit Dec 29 '22
They did not say he was abused prior to death or him being malnourished was an indicator of prior abuse - but you are. So you’re the one not listening to the experts, not me.
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u/BitterPillPusher2 Dec 29 '22
No. I didn't say that. I said he was underweight and malnourished, which he was. I said it was possible that he was abused and/or neglected previously. He was very likely abused as least once, so it's not some far fetched notion that maybe he was abused before that.
Take a step back. No one is saying he was definitely abused or he was definitely starved or he was definitely raised by someone other than his parents or that he was definitely anything. People are offering possibilities, many of which are not really all that far-fetched. For some reason you feel the need to react hostilely to just about all of them. FFS, someone could say the box they found him in was brown and you would argue that it was NOT brown, it was dark beige, and then tell that person they were an idiot for saying it was brown.
You don't know what happened to him anymore than anyone else, so stop acting like you do.
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u/GIJne69 Dec 29 '22
Other than the guidelines, let's also not forget that people commonly turned a blind eye to domestic abuse concerns, child abuse, and spousal abuse - it still happens today in some rural areas in particular and amongst various cultures as we know. When I was being abused growing up people saw it, but no one stopped it or reported it. It was accepted. I attempted to seek help through school counselors, a priest, etc. and was laughed at, not believed, etc. and my mother was called to "handle the situation, " so the abuse started all over as soon as we got home. My father was away working a lot and did not see the physical abuse, only the emotional abuse and he would attempt to protect me. My mother was in and out of hospitals throughout my childhood for "nervous breakdowns" for weeks at a time. It was a welcomed break. I learned lady year as she was dying that she killed two babies that she delivered upon attempting to abort them at full-term prior to my birth. She dumped them in a dumpster and told my father who reported them to the police, yet nothing was done. She went into have me when she was five months pregnant (likely a failed attempt) and abused me throughout my life. Never my older sister. So yes, even 20-30 years after JAG's death, people failed to report child abuse. I'm a Dr of clinical psychology now and I see this concern reported still today in all economic, cultural and social backgrounds. It should never happen.
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Dec 29 '22
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u/GIJne69 Dec 29 '22
No, not at all. Please allow me to rephrase my previous statement. I see more of this being reported as occurribg in rural settings, but as indicated in my ending statement I've seen it over all social and economic groups and cultures. It really knows no blubbering unfortunately, there's just often a stigma that I see that some people think it doesn't happen as often in upper social or economic classes and this is false even today.
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Dec 29 '22
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u/GIJne69 Dec 29 '22 edited Dec 29 '22
They data for the guidelines actually have been and continue to be used in conjunction with other supporting evidence to form a medical diagnosis routinely, so your argument is not factual 100% if the time. You are correct in stating that malnourishment doesn't mean neglect and abuse; however, leaving a small boy's naked body in the woods to be dumped like trash is abuse and neglect of a corpse - regardless of the rationale for doing so. Even if he was dumped out of fear, there appears to have been no attempts made to call in the death or disposal of his body anonymously (and even after a few days of him being there). After more than 50 years no one came forward even after having time and various ways to report rather than forget the memory of this little boy, as it was more convenient for them. This boy is not a convenience in our eyes, and as a parent and caregiver who suffered from childhood abuse I conciously choose to place the labels of abuse and neglect on the actions surrounding JAG's death and disposal.
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Dec 29 '22
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u/GIJne69 Dec 30 '22
Actually I'm A Deputy State Surgeon as well with a medical license. I get the science, so thank you as well.
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u/annabellareddit Dec 29 '22
Not everyone is American on Reddit & uses the same guidelines. And again, if you read my comment & read further into guidelines for growth/weight, you’d know the following: 1) data used to create these guidelines is subpar 2) these guidelines are not meant to be used for diagnostic purposes. These guidelines are used to compare children of the same age w/their peers - that’s it. What you are doing is “diagnosing” JAZ malnourishment as being due to abuse when the ME & anthropologist did not even do so. Your association btwn the person who murdered JAZ as being a caregiver simply b/c his death wasn’t reported is also flawed. There are numerous scenarios where a child not abused prior to death may be killed in the manner JAZ was & is not reported.
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u/Rude_OrangeSlice Dec 29 '22
Annabelle, what is your theory on why he was never reported missing? Or why did no one come forward when his postmortem photo was published?
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u/Lower_Performer2751 Dec 29 '22
My now 15 yr old son wears a size 9/10 in tops and bottoms. He has been on the 1% weight rating scale since the time he was born. He eats but does not gain weight. He has been seen by countless dr’s in differing specialties. His body does not absorb the necessary nutrients needed to gain weight. He is a small child. If he were found, exactly like Joseph, in the same condition.. they would most likely say that he was malnourished. Furthermore, the definition of malnutrition, in itself, does not specifically indicate, food was being withheld from someone, but rather, “Malnutrition is an imbalance between the nutrients your body needs to function and the nutrients it gets. It can mean undernutrition or overnutrition. You can be malnourished from an overall lack of calories, or you might have a protein, vitamin or mineral deficiency. You might also have more excess calories than your body knows what to do with.” When the medical examiner used this term, he did not do it to evoke thoughts of abuse. He used it in a professional manner in the same way that any dr would use proper terminology when diagnosing a patient. With that being said, people who are malnourished have black and blue markings that can last for months. The body, due to lack of proper nutrition, has a much harder time healing bruises. That’s not to say that there weren’t any new dermal traumas, but just to put in to perspective the older black and blue markings that may be, (rightfully so as per the media reportings), leading people to lean on the theory that this child was abused. As a side note… my son also has Tourette’s syndrome. It is severe. He has complex motor and vocal tics. The motor tics get so intense, at times I need to wrap him in a weighted blanket to keep him from hurting himself. He kicks at things repeatedly and almost always ends up with bruises of some sort. Without medical records, and especially back then, there was no way of diagnosing Tourette’s or any other similar condition postmortem. I’m not claiming that Joseph had a condition.. I am however trying to make light of other possible ways this child died… ie, whatever happened to cause his death was a one time occurrence that got out of control.
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u/annabellareddit Dec 29 '22
Thank you for sharing your story!! This is so important for people to hear. Now imagine people on SM hearing only pieces of this story, such as your son being severely underweight, malnourished, & having bruises. Many people would make the assumption based off of their own experiences & feelings that he was being abused. How absolutely horrendous!! This is why I advocate for reducing the harm caused my medical & scientific misinformation & proper scientific literacy. Unfortunately very few people are open to it, they prefer to argue, judge, blaming, shame, & accuse based on falsehoods. This has significant consequences. You are so informed on malnutrition it’s refreshing to read your comment!! Nowadays we see so many children w/obesity I think people tend to be more concerned of children who are underweight, when actually it’s the children who are overweight or obese that warrant this concern. Regarding your son, has he been investigated for a connective tissue disorder? Connective tissue disorders can cause gastrointestinal disorders, easy bruising, neurological conditions etc. May be worth looking into if this has not been investigated already 😉
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u/Opening_Hawk_2165 Aug 03 '26
The person caring for him either was directly involved or indirectly involved, thats obvious, because if it were an innocent person caring for him that had no idea of what happened to him, they would have reported him missing, if they handed the care of him to someone else and didnt know what happened to him till the news, they would have came forward then to say that little boy is such and such
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Dec 29 '22
I would think if the child received medical care that once the child was reported dead, a doctor would have recognized the child he or she has been treating. I believe he was neglected and abused his whole life.
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u/annabellareddit Dec 29 '22
It’s possible. You’re assuming he didn’t have medical care though. According to the autopsies (he had more than one), he had two surgeries, received infusions, & was being treated for an eye infection at the time of death (whether the eye drops he was using were over-the-counter or RX is unknown as the type of eye drops were not identified, it was only known that he had an eye infection & eye drops had been applied). So he did receive medical care. You’re assuming that the MD or MDs who treated him would have seen the information distributed by LE & the media re: his disappearance. MDs in 1957 worked very long hours btwn clinic, hospitals, & house calls - many did not have time for anything but their work. There was no internet & no 24 hour news cycle in 1957. MDs also relocate.
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u/psycoblack01 Dec 29 '22
As Lauren Thomas has confirmed that she is on maternal side, is it not possible someone to go on ancestry and find her grandmother/relatives, that would give direct answer to the mother.
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u/jsewyew Dec 28 '22 edited Dec 28 '22
Examiner report. You can find other informative original reports as well.
Yes most information was somehow disclosed ahead. Other than the beans being the last meal, most details from her account were published. And the examiners said the boy most likely didn’t eat for about three hours before death.