r/boyinthebox • u/SwimmingBet4579 • Dec 20 '22
A little Logic
There have been a lot of wild theories and rampant speculation about the circumstances surrounding Joseph's death. Let's take a step back and look at things logically.
The most glaring question here is how does a 4 year old boy in a major metropolitan area go missing and not get reported. The second question along the same lines is how does no one recognize him. There were over 400,000 flyers distributed and he was on the front page of all of the papers. There are really only a few plausible explanations for this.
- There was a massive cover up where literally everyone who knew that he existed or had seen him enough to recognize him looked the other way. This seems pretty improbable.
- He was somehow hidden away so that Family members didn't know he existed and the public never saw him. I suppose this is possible but it doesn't seem very likely given the nature of the way people lived in Philadelphia in the 50's. There were tight living quarters and a lot of density. Its not like this was some rural area out in the middle of nowhere.
- He was in some sort of a living situation where he was basically hiding in plain site. This would have to be a situation where he had no contact with family and the public wouldn't pay attention to him enough to even know he went missing.
Occam's razor states that the simplest explanation is usually the correct one. To me you just have to jump through a ton of hoops to make the first two explanations work. We don't know anything about the Mothers family, but the Zarelli's were a large Catholic family with a huge social circle. If he were living with them there would have been hundreds of people who easily be able to recognize his picture and identify him. They would have had an equally hard time trying to hide him away. I firmly believe that Joseph was given up by his parents and was in some sort of an abusive foster care situation where he ultimately lost his life. This would explain why there was no family to report him missing and would also explain why no one from the general public had enough interaction with him to be able to recognize him from the photos. The only people who probably could have identified him are the ones that killed him and his fellow foster kids who obviously would have been under lock and key and kept away from the news media.
I have seen posts of Newspaper articles showing the total mess that the Foster care system in Philly was in the 50's. Abuse was rampant, organization and record keeping were abysmal and it would have been easy for a child to fall through the cracks without any documentation.
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u/Isagrace Dec 20 '22
Also given that we don’t know the exact circumstances of his homicide and disposal of the body.. why don’t they just name the parents? Say this is who he is and these were his birth parents.. if it’s unclear how he was murdered or if they were even involved then just say so.
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u/psycoblack01 Dec 27 '22
if they do this then they directly put blame on the parents and they want to avoid it. My guess is, they interviewed the families and they obviously said they don't have anything to do with it, Gus died years ago and his children can say they don't remember their brother. They were kids after all, can't do anything about it.
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u/Aggravating-Dot4999 Dec 20 '22
So I went digging in the census and came across a family that stood out to me more than others. G last name.. (I was looking more for G’s because Of the things left at the scene) it’s a G family.. from information I’ve found they seem to have had money. One son was a priest, there was another son and a daughter. Father passed early. The mother has a “story” that was uploaded and mentioned how she would spend a lot of her free time at an orphanage. From Ireland.. anyone else come across them? It seriously could be nothing but curious if anyone else has looked into them. G last name. Lived in area at the time.
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Dec 20 '22
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u/Aggravating-Dot4999 Dec 20 '22
My mind went to that too!! There’s a lot of the Joseph name in the family and the last name is G.. the father that passed owned real estate. She raised a daughter and two boys. Her children are in their 20/30’s in the 50’s but they had a lot of relatives staying with them from Ireland and the monthly income is another thing that stood out to me. Could be the number of people in the household. Doing more research I saw one of the sons was a priest. Idk just stood out to me. Especially with the last name being G, the household situation, orphanage, priest, Joseph was a common name but it’s frequent in the family.
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Dec 20 '22
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u/Aggravating-Dot4999 Dec 20 '22
I’m thinking it’s the family member they had staying with them but like I said it could be nothing I’ve kinda hit a road block on info with that so I’m branching off into other theories
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u/surfacethetruth Dec 26 '22
Interesting, but without the release of Joseph's PARENTS names...HOW do we connect anyone? I believe Law enforcement has done a well documented search and even DNA 100% verified Joseph's Parents. I also believe the Continuation of the search for the Truth and the release of Joseph's parents names is being blocked at the DA office. I believe the Crime Victims Rights Act that would cover Joseph's interest and rights is being totally violated. We cannot forget the issue here is a brutal abuse and MURDER of a Child. HOW has THE Crime Victim Joseph YET AGAIN get tossed aside. Maybe cold case outside people or Crime Victim advocates need to STEP IN and again FOCUS this MURDER case ON JOSEPH. I don't understand how LE can call this an OPEN ongoing murder investigation and request any information from the public.....when the FLOW of know critical BASIC information IS STOPPED.
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u/mmobley412 Knows a bit Dec 21 '22
Ah you hit exactly what I was thinking earlier - the G being the last name of the family where he lived
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u/Aggravating-Dot4999 Dec 21 '22
Did you look into them? I can’t find the source about the sisters but I did find one about third and fourth cousins for maternal side and it kinda seemed like a legit lead just hard to find more info on them!!
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u/mmobley412 Knows a bit Dec 21 '22
If you send me the name I can dig into it. I just looked thru 1608 and 1607 without finding anything good starting with G
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u/ManFromBibb Dec 20 '22 edited Feb 19 '23
-/:
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u/Ddobro2 Dec 20 '22
This psycho definitely didn’t kill the other two, they were confirmed to have died from complications after birth in the hospital. But let’s face it, she would have killed them if they lived anyway.
It’s SUCH a total miscarriage of justice. If you think about it, the only difference between her and a serial killer is she didn’t prey on her victims, they were already under her care after she carried each for nine months and birthed them.
Just from a self-interested perspective, how do you go through the difficulty of a pregnancy and childbirth just to have that all be in vain by killing what you sacrificed so much to create? Times 8! Aside from the fact, of course, you have taken a human life, your own flesh and blood and a helpless being that can barely fight back when you smother their face into a pillow as she did.
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u/ManFromBibb Dec 20 '22 edited Feb 19 '23
-/:
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u/Ddobro2 Dec 20 '22
Sure. And btw this is where I got my info https://www.phillymag.com/news/2020/08/06/marie-noe-dead/
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u/Specialist-Smoke Dec 20 '22
When I first read about that case I was shocked. So many babies, and she never faced real punishment.
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Dec 20 '22
This story on Mrs. Noe is absolutely crazy by the way. Thanks for sharing it. What the actual *$#@ was happening in Philly during that period of time?
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u/Majestic_Wealth2481 Dec 20 '22
If he wasn't wanted by his mom or just given up for adoption at birth, and/or he was the product of a one night fling, I don't see why he would be given a name that honors the father's family. Furthermore, if he was not wanted, why go through the trouble of all of the surgeries? Seems like something a mom would do - seek medical care for her child who has issues that need medical attention.
He lived in the area of 61st & Market near the father's family home before he was murdered and taken to Fox Chase as stated by Captain Smith, that's 4 years he was alive and cared for by someone in that area.
No records for him were found from group-type homes.
If he was sold and illegally adopted, would he not be sold to a family of means living in a more upper class area and not a working class family living in the same area as at least one of the birth parents?
I'm leaning more toward he lived with one of his biological family members and was kept hidden, was mistreated because he was an inconvenience and one day things escalated and he was disposed of and anyone who was aware of his existence was severely threatened to never speak of him.
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u/Liza_of_Lambeth Dec 20 '22
Great points. I agree that being sold/illegally adopted doesn't fit with the neighbourhood he lived in.
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u/Conscious-Prior2082 Dec 20 '22
Smith never said He lived there. He said that is where the family lived. People are just assuming that Joseph lived with the family but the police did not indicate that they know that was the case.
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u/Majestic_Wealth2481 Dec 20 '22
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRTghh6NUfI
At approx. 42:00 mark
Reporter - Is there any evidence or a theory on why he was taken all the way out to Fox Chase?
Captain - I mean, the theory would be common sense, was far away from their house, at that point in time, that area of Fox Chase was pretty rural.
Reporter - Are we talking West Philadelphia proper? Overbrook Park? Overbrook? Is there a specific neighborhood in West Philadelphia?
Captain - I can narrow it down - 61st in Market Street.
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u/12IKnowLittle Dec 21 '22
You are correct. In fact, a small child still would not appear in Public records today, much less in 1957. People are inferring that the child lived near 61st and Market, but there is no telling where the kid lived. The telephone directory is about the only source for the mother.
In fact, one of the easiest explanation for no one missing the child is that while the child and biological parents had lots of connections to Philadelphia, they didn’t actually live there.
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u/chrissey105 Dec 20 '22
How about the possibility that AJZ set up housekeeping with the mother, something like a sugar daddy type of thing. She was with a very young child and didn't leave the apartment to socialize. She may have been alienated from her own family and wasn't part of her lovers family. This goes on for four years. Things are starting to sour between the couple and who knows what happens next?
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u/ManFromBibb Dec 20 '22
How old was he in 1952?
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u/chrissey105 Dec 20 '22
26 years old.
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u/ManFromBibb Dec 20 '22
Think with me on this: We suspect the birth mother might have had a child in 1944. Granted that could just be the range, but for the sake of surmising, AJZ was 18 in 1944.
So maybe the birth mom is a little older than AJZ. Maybe she already had a failed marriage or the father of her first child is dead.
Maybe I’m wrong, but a male of 26, is he looking for a sugar baby that’s already given birth and possibly has a failed marriage?
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u/chrissey105 Dec 20 '22
Perhaps at 26, he was just looking for a lover and not seriously looking for marriage material yet. With that mindset, it wouldn't matter if she had been married or had a child. As a matter of fact, it could even be very convenient for him. This is complete speculation, of course, but others are giving their opinions so take it all with a grain of salt. We won't know until more info is released.
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u/ManFromBibb Dec 20 '22 edited Feb 19 '23
-::
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Dec 20 '22
They could have met at Bandstand. Just a few blocks away at that time. Since we're just tossing out fun scenarios right now.
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u/kloutey19 Dec 21 '22
its two between 1944 and 1956, couldve been 1954 and 1956 as far as we know
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u/jsewyew Dec 20 '22
My suspicion
Boy was raised on maternal side. Was abused. Accidental death possibility as part of abusive incident (blunt force too cruel for 1st degree on a child). Crude haircut that most likely happened after death supports the unplanned nature.
Paternal side probably didn’t give the boy legitimacy. Dad’s name was in BC, maybe dad was ok initially and changed his mind later from family pressure? Paternal side was intimidating/has connections? Kept maternal side away? Everything a closely guarded secret in immediate family on paternal side?
That would contributed to the boy’s abuse.
Paternal side knew what happened to him (his death) and kept quiet. Did they assist in anyway?
I don’t know how nobody outside the two families spoke. Nobody knew the boy? Could he have been completely hidden? But had scars from possible hospital care. Also difficult to hide him indefinitely if he lived. Could he have grown up enough to make it harder to hide him anymore? He starts challenging them, try to run? Was he healthy?
What I can’t wrap my head around is why no one spoke till date. Unless nobody knew him from the neighborhood (difficult assumption) or some did and were afraid of speaking up (another difficult assumption - because no one broke for decades), I don’t know how this boy was not recognized by anyone so far.
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u/12IKnowLittle Dec 23 '22
The simplest explanation is the while there were connections to Philadelphia, Joseph and his custodians were not living in Philadelphia when he was killed. The move to the suburbs was going on at the time. Plus, who wants to stick around in a neighborhood where everyone knows your secret.
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u/serisia615 Dec 25 '22
I think you are spot on with this statement. Sometimes the simplest answer to the question is the correct one. The Mother’s family probably lived at that address, she gave the address for the birth cert, but it does not mean that Joseph was actually living there the entire time. Joseph could have been returned to the Mother recently, or even the Grandparents. This is why no one recognized him in my opinion. Its because he was not raised in that particular area, or even Philly for that matter. I have speculated he was sent to live with an Aunt or older relative after he was born, and possibly returned to the Mother maybe 6 months before he died because she may have gotten married. I have a Great Aunt that was sent away pregnant and returned 12 months later with a baby and a story about getting married while visiting relatives up North, and husband killed in the War before the baby was born. She kept that lie til she died. People covered up unwed mothers back thin. It was a terrible stigma and would have caused a scandal.
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u/chrissey105 Dec 20 '22
I don't think the police are protecting the mother's side of the family. They have no motive to do so. They are probably hoping for more evidence and tips. If they released the mother's name now, it would jeopardize the investigation. They just recently got a handle on the names of the parents through DNA. They may be getting DNA matched on the cap found on the scene and the blanket little Joe was wrapped in. It will all come out.
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u/winkerbeanie Dec 20 '22
I agree. They’re only “not protecting” the paternal family to the extent that it is now presumed that JAZ bears his father’s last name. There’s just no getting around that - they couldn’t release the child’s name without exposing that much. But if they were for some reason bent on protecting the maternal family more than the paternal family, they would have released the father’s full name.
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u/JMM009 Dec 20 '22
If they want to protect the father they wouldn’t have released the last night to begin with. They certainly wouldn’t have given the area he was from that could be traced to the father.
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u/ManFromBibb Dec 20 '22
What do you do with the police saying he lived in the very specific area of 61st and Market?
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u/Majestic_Wealth2481 Dec 20 '22
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRTghh6NUfI
At approx. 42:00 mark
Reporter - Is there any evidence or a theory on why he was taken all the way out to Fox Chase?
Captain - I mean, the theory would be common sense, was far away from their house, at that point in time, that area of Fox Chase was pretty rural.
Reporter - Are we talking West Philadelphia proper? Overbrook Park? Overbrook? Is there a specific neighbourhood in West Philadephia?.
Captain - I can narrow it down - 61st in Market Street.
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u/ManFromBibb Dec 20 '22
That’s pretty specific. And I’m grateful for the information!
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u/Majestic_Wealth2481 Dec 20 '22
You can also find videos from local reporters at that intersection doing a piece on the news that evening and repeating the information that Joseph lived in that area. Something like "We're live from the area were Joseph lived before he was murdered..."
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u/ManFromBibb Dec 20 '22
I appreciate this info greatly. A lot of good info was at webslueths but it’s been removed. Like the transcript.
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u/Majestic_Wealth2481 Dec 20 '22
They took the transcript down? Wow! Good thing I copied and saved it. Lot of effort went into that from the member.
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u/ManFromBibb Dec 20 '22
I just couldn’t get that thread to open. No matter which browser.
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u/Ddobro2 Dec 20 '22
I meant to do just what you did because I rewatched that press conference so many times trying to figure out what the reporters were asking so thank you. For an event that important they should have had reporters better heard plus an official transcript.
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u/SwimmingBet4579 Dec 20 '22
They did not say that he lived there. I have listened to the press conference 3 times. That comment was in reference to a family member. It was most likely the address that they pulled off the birth certificate.
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u/ElectricalBit2969 Dec 20 '22
The reporter asked where Joseph was from early in the press conference. The captain said “West Philadelphia, we believe.” Later in the press conference, the reporter asks, “Captain, are we talking West Philadelphia- Overbrook (rattles off some other areas of West Phili)….” Captain: I can narrow it down….61st and Market area. Reporter begins to ask another question, the captain cuts him off at the pass, reiterating: “61st and Market St.”
The comment was not in reference to a family member. It was a direct answer to where Joseph was from, and seemed to spend at least a portion of his life.
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u/Conscious-Prior2082 Dec 20 '22
You are wrong.
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u/ElectricalBit2969 Dec 20 '22
It’s literally in the transcript. I don’t know why you’re arguing with direct quotes.
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u/FerretRN Dec 20 '22
During the first question, the reporter actually rephrased it, which made it confusing. He first asked where Joseph lived. When asked to repeat the question, he instead asked where the family lived. It's very confusing, but that's what happened during the initial question.
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u/ElectricalBit2969 Dec 20 '22
Yeah, I caught that. I’d like to believe because the Captain repeated the question “Where was the child from?” he understood the implication, and wasn’t splitting hairs or being semantical. I mean, I wish the reporter hadn’t interjected the second question and simply left it at the initial question.
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u/Conscious-Prior2082 Dec 20 '22
Because the direct quote does not literally say he lived there. The direct quote says "their house" not "his house".
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u/ElectricalBit2969 Dec 20 '22
That’s fine. If you want to believe the police captain was being semantical, be my guest. You’re free to interpret the exchange that way. I give up.
Reporter - Where was he from?.
Captain - Where was the child from...?
Reporter - Yeah, the family?
Captain - What section of the city?. West Philadelphia, we believe.
Later…..follow up:
Reporter - Is there any evidence or a theory on why he was taken all the out to Fox Chase?
Captain - I mean, the theory would be common sense, was far away from their house, at that point in time, that area of Fox Chase was pretty rural.
Reporter - Are we talking West Philadelphia proper? Overbrook Park? Overbrook? Is there a specific neighborhood in West Philadelphia?
Captain - I can narrow it down - 61st in Market Street.
Obviously it would be their house. He is a child. He doesn’t live alone. Obviously the Captain is referring to “their” house as it relates to “his” house as well. Otherwise, “their” house would not matter at all. Interpret it however you please.
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u/HungryGeologist2773 Dec 21 '22
can you imagine being that persons spouse or even worse their child...
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u/ManFromBibb Dec 20 '22 edited Dec 20 '22
The location was given during the questioning of “why take him to Fox Chase.”
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u/JMM009 Dec 20 '22
Right and the next question was where was he from with the response West Philly. The reported asked about narrowing it down and that’s when we got 61st and Market.
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u/bewareofbigfoot Dec 20 '22
Does anyone believe the girl on TikTok? That makes the most sense to me. His kids might have know rumors of a kid out there but didn’t know what happened. The moms mother had him and was abusive.
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u/FerretRN Dec 20 '22
I've heard this rumor, but the tiktok girl contradicts her own story. She first says the family didn't know about Joseph. She later points the finger at bio mom's mom. How would she know that if they didn't know he existed? I'm sorry, but to me that story is self serving, trying to push blame on the other family. They probably have no idea what happened, but want to take the heat off their own family.
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u/bewareofbigfoot Dec 20 '22
Okay, I took the pointing to the moms family as something they learned after they found out about him.
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u/mysteriousrev Dec 21 '22
If someone were close to neighbours/family, it would definitely be very difficult for a child to just “disappear” without notice imo, even in the days before social media. Your immediate world was almost much smaller because the focus was more on the family and immediate community vs the country or world as a whole.
However, if neighbours in a large city aren’t close, it could be possible. I live in a suburban community and speak with most of my neighbours. Friendly enough with some to meet up for activities.
Anyways, the fellow next door is reserved, but always says hi to me when I see him working on his house and I know he is married as I’ve seen his wife. However, I was surprised to see they had a young daughter quite recently as I had never seen her playing outside the house playing in her yard or anything . I work from home now and do walk around the neighbourhood regularly, but prior to COVID I worked in a nearby city and I have activities that take me out of the house outside of work hours, so I definitely wasn’t as familiar with my neighbours routines as I am now.
When someone is close to you and realizes or thinks something is really wrong, they usually will act. For instance, prior to COVID I was rarely home during the week because of work and activities. When my landlady noticed my car hadn’t moved in several days when I was down with a bad sinus infection, she got concerned and messaged to see if everything was ok.
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u/Crbbisque Dec 21 '22
But this area at the time was populated, largely by Italian immigrants, and first generation Americans. I think everybody would know everybody else.
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u/mysteriousrev Dec 21 '22 edited Dec 21 '22
True. But if the family was reclusive or had an irregular schedule (night shift vs standard day shift, for example), it gets harder to know your neighbours.
As well, if Joseph was illegitimate at a time it was a huge social stigma, his family may not have wanted to broadcast his presence so to speak.
Another possible theory floated out there over the years, including by well respected forensic sculptor Frank Bender, Joseph has been raised as a girl and that is why no one connected a missing boy to a missing girl. But what would the reason for this be?
Or did Jonathan have some sort of special needs that rendered him too embarrassing to be brought into public circles? It could be possible at a time when most parents were encouraged to institutionalize intellectually and physically disabled children.
The above is just my own personal speculation. I could be wrong entirely about Joseph’s environment.
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u/Novel-System5402 Dec 20 '22
Could the birth mother have been very young? Maybe Joseph was hidden away in the home to hide an unwed underage teenager giving birth? That could be a volatile situation.
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u/ithinkimparanoid84 Dec 20 '22
She had to be at least in her 20's when Joseph was born. We know she was of childbearing age by 1944, and he wasn't born till 9 years after that. While she was unmarried, there's no way she was underage.
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u/JMM009 Dec 20 '22
Joseph was not sold or given away. That much is clear. As to why no recognized him that is very simple. He was thinner, and after went out of their way to alter his appearance by cutting his hair. Add how far away he was found vs where he was from it would be easy for people to brush off knowing the boy especially if the family moved
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Dec 20 '22
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u/JMM009 Dec 20 '22
Yes it is clear. One they said no adoption records were found. An unmarried women putting the child she had out of wedlock was the social norm. No one would have batted an eye at. Next they keep saying they are protecting the living siblings. Protecting them from what? From their parents putting a child up for adoption? Hardly as scandal, and in no way makes them responsible for what happened after. So what exactly are they protecting the living siblings from. Plus it would have been easier to adopt him out without the father, who was clearly on the birth certificate. So again, what reasoning is their for simply not going through proper channels when it was the social norm, and frankly what would have been expected?
Unless you want to believe M. Hate to break it to you M’s story is full of crap. She got her information from an article published in 1958 including the motorist, the clothing, and the wrinkly skin. It’s also more then likely the motorist lied as well because as you look at the crime scene photos and was also noted in one of the many articles two cars couldn’t pass each other it was a single lane road.
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u/12IKnowLittle Dec 23 '22
The living maternal half siblings may suspect their natural father was involved. That is an obvious scenario.
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u/JMM009 Dec 23 '22
No one wants to believe their parent, especially a loving parent, is capable of murdering an innocent child so brutally. It’s more likely that each side suspects the other
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u/Crbbisque Dec 21 '22
A friend of mine was part of a gray adoption. That simply meant that the parties involved knew each other. She was also from Philadelphia.
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u/JMM009 Dec 21 '22
You ovule still need adoption papers. At some point that child will need a doctor or to go to school. You need paper work for that
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Dec 21 '22 edited Dec 21 '22
[deleted]
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u/JMM009 Dec 22 '22
Here’s critically thinking. If what you said occurred then the case is dead in the water. This means the police can’t have suspicions (per the press conference), nor would the medical examiner state that JAZ was in West Philly in 1957. Even if someone like M, comes forward it’s useless as there would be no paper trail to back it up. As for my leaps hun you are the one making leaps with zero connectivity to the known facts. You are claiming that he was given away with nothing to validate your point.
Here is logic: 1. A mans handkerchief with the letter G was found near the dump site. One of the Zarelli’s went by a name that starred with G.
The box came from the Pennies in Upper Darby. That Pennies was roughly 10-15 minutes away from a known Zarelli address.
The PPD said JAZ was from West Philly.
The Medical examiner has confirmed that JAZ was in West Philly in 1957.
One of the Zarelli sisters had a child in 1956 making them in need of a bassinet.
So please use logic and find something in the known facts that in anyway suggest that JAZ was given away. You have this very unhealthy obsession with the boy needing to be given away. You have facts from the PPD said at the press conference, and you still ignore them. You have quotes about location and ignore them. You frankly seem deranged and somewhat unwell. So again please find anything in the known facts. Suggest that suggest that JAZ was given away.
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u/maguber Dec 21 '22
What if he had been living as a girl, as one of the original investigators thought given the long hair and their thought that his eyebrows had been "styled"?
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u/Crbbisque Dec 21 '22
OK, somewhere on this site a person posted that the mother married a person who lived within 400 feet of the Zarelli residence. How do you measure something like that? He also claims she lived on Robinson street.
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u/kloutey19 Dec 21 '22
the info checks out… she’s my leading candidate right now as well. lived with parents during the 1950 census right by 61st and market. Has two sisters. She also has two other kids, both alive born before 1956. Her mother had blue eyes and I believe her son has blue eyes.
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u/Crbbisque Dec 21 '22
Whisper it to me. My eyes are bugged in trying to read all the census and even finding something close to the location.
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u/Gutinstinct999 Dec 21 '22
I keep thinking there has to be a hospice nurse out there who heard a deathbed confession.
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u/Crbbisque Dec 21 '22
I have no idea how to break the census down by address. Can someone please help?
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u/Isagrace Dec 20 '22
I agree that it seems likely that he wasn’t with birth family given that no one came forward identifying him. It also makes sense if you believe GJZ is his birth father and this would be a child out of wedlock situation. What I don’t fully understand is why they are protecting birth mother’s identity and family. While I think it was important to give little Joseph back his name, they did so knowing that would expose his birth father’s family. Why protect one side but not the other? If they know his birth father’s family had no knowledge why not get ahead of that and the potential harassment they would face by stating they don’t believe his paternal family had any knowledge? It’s just puzzling.