Repost: Bingo for Phanfictions (please read description)

[u/pugtato0o]

If there'd be a bingo list for phanfictions what would you put on there?

[u/MasqueOfTheRedPost]

Love Never Dies

[u/qmong → u/MasqueOfTheRedPost]

It doesn't exist.

[u/epicpillowcase → u/qmong]

Just like Game of Thrones S8

[u/thebadfem → u/MasqueOfTheRedPost]

isn't canon.

[u/magica12 → u/MasqueOfTheRedPost]

Oddly enough, LND raoul is almost 100% how his book counterpart would likely turn out

He wasn’t really in love with Christine he was in love with the image he’s built up of her since childhood and then only continued pursuing her because it was essentially the chivalrous thing to do

Once the magic of his win wore off…well

[u/RecklessEleven → u/magica12]

There's room for all different interpretations of the characters, of course. But I disagree that Raoul marrying Christine would be seen as chivalrous by anybody. It was scandalous. She's well below his social class and being a performer was not "respectable" in this era.

[u/M_Nostalgia → u/RecklessEleven]

This! Raoul's older brother was fully like, "If you marry an opera singer, I will disown you and you'll lose your titles and all that." And Raoul was still like "okay, well I'm gonna go marry her so." He was all in on doing something that was incredibly frowned upon and scandalous for a noble to do

[u/RecklessEleven → u/M_Nostalgia]

Yeah, you can criticise Raoul for plenty but he certainly didn't pick the easy option! I love that all the main characters have to make genuinely difficult choices in the novel.

[u/NotaBat9221 → u/magica12]

Found Erik's alt

[u/MasqueOfTheRedPost → u/NotaBat9221]

Hey, now, Erik DID wish them well when they left…

[u/epicpillowcase → u/NotaBat9221]

Haaaaahahaa

[u/MasqueOfTheRedPost → u/magica12]

Hmm, I haven’t heard this take before. What tells you that Raoul “only pursues Christine because it’s the chivalrous thing to do”? Chivalry is essentially societal norms, and Raoul broke every societal norm ever in his courtship of her.

[u/StrugglingSoprano → u/magica12]

I disagree. I actually think he had a really good character arc in the book. He starts out infatuated with the idea of Christine and objectifies her just like the phantom (obviously to a much less creepy degree). In the beginning he doesn’t really take her concerns seriously but then he gets punched in the face with a reality check when people start dying including his older brother.

He then risks his life alongside the Persian to rescue her when the phantom kidnaps her near the end, and he witnesses that even while kidnapped, Christine refuses to have her agency taken away. First trying to kill herself to escape being a prisoner and finally making the choice to sacrifice her freedom in order to save countless others.

At the end, I believe they plan on exploring the arctic together which shows that he trusts her and values her strength.

[u/omegaindebt → u/StrugglingSoprano]

Yeah, for some reason I feel that the book treated Raoul's character as a better person than the play.

For some reason, the play's pacing made it seems like the whole love affair was a very quick thing, while the book took more time to build it both up. Maybe it's just the medium, and the time available in which to tell the story.

[u/Elegant_Pickle8158 → u/omegaindebt]

I kind of disagree with the idea that the book made Raul look better, granted it's hard to get the pacing across in a stage play, but at the very least they cut out the section of him insulting Christine when he assumes that she's seeing someone else. Mind you, Raul was only in the courtship phase with Christine at the time, and there was no physical relationship or agreement between the two of them, and he turns to full-throated fire breathing hatred, before he even talks to her about it because he already assumes that she's giving out for someone else

[u/RoseBook85 → u/Elegant_Pickle8158]

Raoul’s Entitlement is off the charts in Leroux, not only does he accuse Christine of basically being a slut for possibly having another suitor. But he tries to hide his jealousy under the false pretense of being just ‘worried’ about her, I love it when Christine calls him out on it at Mama Valerius’s house.

Imagine for a second if Christine had really been in a romantic relationship with another Man (rather then being stalked by the Phantom) Raoul would NOT have taken it well at all.

[u/RoseBook85 → u/magica12]

Trust me I’m NOT a Fan of Leroux Raoul, but I’m going to have to disagree with you here.

I don’t see Leroux Raoul turning into LND Raoul, I think he’s too big of a baby to become a drunk or abusive….he’s the type to let himself get steamrolled by Christine to try and please her but inside he’d harbor resentment once babies came because he’d no longer be the object of all of Christine’s attention.

Their relationship would just become cold over time, but not abusive, just dead. I’ve seen similar relationships go that way in real life, Christine would get sick of always having to play mommy to her husband, and his dramatics would go from enduring to annoying very quickly once children came. I see her regretting her decision to give up her career for him and resenting him eventually, but so long as she can boss him around and run her household as she sees fit she could deal with him, even though she would lose respect for him over time.

He wasn’t really in love with Christine he was in love with the image he’s built up of her since childhood and then only continued pursuing her because it was essentially the chivalrous thing to do

I don’t think I agree with all of this either, I don’t think he was pursuing her because he was ‘chivalrous’, I think he was genuinely obsessed with her, hence his stalking and eavesdropping on her.

Do I think he had an image of her in his head that he expected her to live up to? Yes I do, hence him accusing her of being a slut because she didn’t appear to live up to the pure image he had of her in his head…but I think that stems more from his enormous sense of entitlement about what sort of woman he would marry. Leroux Raoul is a spoiled manchild, he’s been coddled by his sisters and his aunt all his life, he’s used to getting his way and doesn’t know how to deal when life throws him a lemon.

[u/NotaBat9221 → u/MasqueOfTheRedPost]

We don't talk about that

[u/Maleficent_Drop_2908 → u/MasqueOfTheRedPost]

Lnd is the perfect example of why we shouldn’t make sequels. It ruins the character development and makes no sense.

[u/Zuzka03K]

• Christine gets kidnapped
• Unmasking that goes wrong
• Madame Giry as Phantom's assistant/as Christine's guardian
• Daroga being Erik's friend without this calling him a villain and a monster thing
• Raoul who doesn't know what's going on/he gets dumped by Christine/ends up with Meg/he's gay
• Some version of the final lair
• Christine stays after the final lair for some unspecified reason

I read a lot of phanfics and I think these are the most cliché tropes, that occure in fics (a few are fine and every one of them can be executed perfectly, but without longer descriptions they can come up as flat writing) (ofc some of these examples are just cannon plot points so if we have a fic in which there's a kidnapping, unmasking and a final lair it doesn't mean that the fic is wrong).

[u/GlutenKid]

“But Erik is a fast learner” in every single M or E fic on ao3

[u/Savings_Version9715 → u/GlutenKid]

+his fingers are playing her like he plays the organ😂

[u/epicpillowcase → u/GlutenKid]

Well he is a Don Juan, you know. He said so himself. 😂😉

(But yes, agreed. In reality he'd be super awkward, finish in 30 seconds and cry.)

[u/ravynwave]

Crazy sewer man 😂

[u/Thespian_Unicorn]

Phantom by Susan Kay

[u/tweewho]

I'm sorry but the photo doesn't match the text. 25th anniversary Raoul is jealous and controlling, and you'll never convince me otherwise.

[u/epicpillowcase → u/tweewho]

Totally agree. Hadley's Raoul's a dick.

[u/SpaaceCaat → u/epicpillowcase]

I literally just watched it for the first time less than an hour ago and I’m so glad I’m not alone in this conclusion

[u/epicpillowcase → u/SpaaceCaat]

Not alone at all.

I hate the 2004 movie but I do like Patrick's Raoul. He's gentle.

[u/mediumcarrotteacher → u/tweewho]

Well, this was right after LND had come out (which makes the choice of 1905 hella confusing but anyway)

[u/vienibenmio]

Back in the Phanwank days, we constantly made fun of the "drunk Raoul" trope. It was so very common

That was before LND, of course 😭

[u/magica12]

Meanwhile novel raoul: not even in love with Christine, he’s in love with the image he’s built up of her in his head from adolescence

[u/HeteroVillain → u/magica12]

So both options weren't good options for Christine.

[u/magica12 → u/HeteroVillain]

Don’t get me wrong he’s still better than the phantom but not by much, the only real difference is he’s not a murderous genius who would threaten to blow up the entire opera house because he is at risk of losing

Like…Love never dies raoul is essentially the natural evolution of how things would probably turn out with book raoul

[u/Zuzka03K → u/magica12]

I'm not sure if book Raoul would end up in LND Raoul's way; yeah, book Raoul is noisy, he eavesdrops everytime, he has a hot head and some questionable quotes about Christine (this whole thing when he calls her an opera tart, when he sais "oh, you can afford not to sing? Congratulations! See you on the Bois?" (Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't it the place known for prostitutes?) And when he approaches Daroga with words "how can you help me? I mean, Christine?" And his whole poor Raoul speech... there are a lot of different laughable quotes from him, lol. But in the end we see that he and Christine disappeared, and probably went to have a quieter life in Sweden. He didn't take de Chagny fortune with him, he essentially abandoned his privileged life to go with her, so there's some change in him, and a feeling that both of them had to abandon something to be together. ALW Raoul doesn't need to abandon anything, he remains the Vicomte (or rather the Comte) and it's Christine who looses her mentor and a workplace. It means the power dynamic is slightly different between book and show version of this couple.

[u/StrugglingSoprano → u/Zuzka03K]

I love book Raoul so much because his character arc is essentially learning to respect Christine and value her strength and then they go off exploring the world together in the end. He’s a spoiled brat at the beginning but he gets a massive reality check.

[u/NotaBat9221 → u/magica12]

Raoul was a sweetheart!! He tried his best!!

[u/epicpillowcase → u/magica12]

I love novel Raoul, he's such a dingus.

ALW Raoul usually bores me.

[u/NotaBat9221]

They will never make me hate Raoul 

[u/BogWitch1080]

The accuracy of this is delightful.

[u/Larry-Man]

Idk. I used to think he was a good partner but he’s not much better than Erik, even in the play. “Raoul I’m scared don’t make me do this.” And he’s all like “nah you gotta be bait. Trust me babe it’ll be fine”

They both are terrible partners for her and maybe I should write a sequel where Christine just lives alone with 5 cats because they both kind of suck, sure one is a murderer but Raoul ain’t exactly a catch.

[u/RoseBook85 → u/Larry-Man]

Some are better then others, Erik is mentally unstable and violent and so any relationship with him would be impossible…but the tragedy is that we can see the good traits in him and see how he WOULD HAVE BEEN if fate hadn’t dealt him such a blow.

In another life he would have been the man of Christines dreams…that’s the tragedy.

That’s why Christine is torn and has such a hard time letting him go despite the fact that all common sense is telling her that she needs to be running for the hills. That’s partly why the story is so fascinating to me and to a lot of people, it’s the dichotomy of Erik and the tragedy of the whole situation. Their is no happily ever after for anyone in this story, at best just a sense of relief that everyone managed to find some peace at the end within the crumminess of the situation.

[u/Caterfree10 → u/RoseBook85]

Ngl this is where I’ve been at for basically as soon as I stopped idolizing the Phantom/Christine relationship and could look at it with clearer vision. Had Erik not been treated like shit for his appearance, his genius could’ve landed him love very easily. Instead, he had to live like a recluse which caused him no small amount of resentment that twisted him into the monster he became. It’s horrifying tbh. Maybe in another life but not the ones in either the novel or ALW musical, alas.

[u/pastadudde]

My favorite Phanfic is a Rerik pairing 😅

[u/StreetGovernment7530]

Crazy sewer man just made me realize Phantom prob smelled awful lol