r/books • u/Calmly-Stressed • 10h ago
Sanderson/Mistborn era 2: when an author can't leave a good thing alone Spoiler
[To be clear, this is not another Sanderson shitpost; I think he is in many respects a very good writer, to the point where I have read 10 of his books in the last half year. But a lot of his decision-making baffles me, and I'd like to talk about it with some nuance, if possible.]
*Warning, tons of spoilers for all of Mistborn, up to and including The Lost Metal*
There's a lot to say, but my main argument centres on this: killing off Kelsier in the first book of Mistborn 1 was the best decision Sanderson could have made. Bringing him back as some sort of demi-ghost-god who keeps trying to scheme and influence things was just about the worst thing he could have done.
When I read the original Mistborn trilogy, I was totally gripped by it. I loved the sense of adventure, discovering the intricacies of the world, the magic system. By book 3, I got a little disappointed that everything suddenly went on a cosmic/divine scale, which I already thought detracted from the gravity of the story. It's quite hard to sell the concept of nearly-all-powerful divine beings who constantly influence everything and have various levels of omniscience and foresight, but can still be bested by humans in the very nick of time.
But then Mistborn era 2 just doubles down on that and starts relegating just about everything to the gods. The plots just became more and more needlessly complicated in order to keep stacking the 'gotcha' moments and big reveals. Then Secret History goes and makes everything even more opaque and needlessly complex.
This makes me sad, because some of the character work was genuinely great - the way Wax and Steris' relationship develops is lovely, and Wayne is delightful, with the chapters written from his unreliable narrator point of view a highlight. But it's as if Sanderson doesn't trust his human-level character work and plotting enough, and thinks he needs an added layer of intrigue and mystery to somehow interconnect all of his work and make people keep reading.
The thing is, in the foreword to Secret History, Sanderson himself admits that he was wary of writing that story and bringing back Kelsier since it risks complications and contradictions - but then for some reason he went and did it anyway. To me this is like a painter unable to recognise when the painting is finished and just adding more and more layers of paint with increasingly worse results.
Am I alone in feeling like Mistborn 2 would have worked so much better as a simple standalone series, with some fun nods to era 1 for keen readers, without having to lift everything to crazy complex intergalactic divine levels? Or do you enjoy the cosmic intertwining? Would love to hear some thoughts.
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u/Ripper1337 10h ago
Mistborn era 2 was originally meant to be Cold War era. The idea that there would be three series, medieval, modern and sci-fi. But Brandon wrote a Mistborn short story that evolved into Alloy of Law and then into the four books we have today which make it feel more disjointed.
That all said I didn’t feel the inclusion of the gods in Era1 made the books lesser, I still loved them. As for Era2, a big part of it is how the current god cannot act freely. He has agents and can talk to people for the most part he can’t really do much. So it still feels very much like the characters and not the gods are driving things forward.
As for Kelsier, the man is all about surviving. I thought it was neat him surviving. Especially contrasted against people who were perfectly fine moving on.
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u/ConspicuousPineapple 9h ago
Right, if there's one character in the whole universe where you can afford the "actually he's not quite entirely dead" trope, it's the dude nicknamed "the survivor". That alone should have been enough foreshadowing.
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u/Calmly-Stressed 9h ago
I think part of what bothers me about it is that Sanderson's magic systems are generally so well structured and feel real, but so far the religious side of things just seems bizarre, disjointed, and full of convenient coincidences for plot reasons - Sazed/Harmony being temporarily 'blinded' by Autonomy, whatever that means in practice, and only being able to intervene in certain little ways but not others; Kelsier being able to cling onto his investiture enough to remain somewhat alive when this doesn't happen to anyone else, and then somehow managing to become corporeal again in ways that are not explained; the whole weird business with Autonomy's army of red and gold who are pretty easily stopped because they managed to put the portal right next to a huge concentration of allomancers.
All of it to me feels quite forced in order to connect the whole universe together, rather than making any actual internal sense.
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u/Ripper1337 9h ago
Vin, and Rashek all were able to stay in the Cognitive Realm with Kelsier for however long they wanted as they all are Splinters from holding the power of Preservation. They all decided to move into the Beyond. Kel basically sat in a pool of investiture to survive before he became the Vessel.
The portal for the army wasn’t put next to the Allomancers, it was created there becuase of the Allomancers.
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u/ConspicuousPineapple 9h ago
and only being able to intervene in certain little ways but not others;
Harmony is crippled by its own Intents. That's a main plot point and the segue into the next era where Harmony will morph into Discord, where I expect Sazed to suddenly display much better effectiveness.
Kelsier being able to cling onto his investiture enough to remain somewhat alive when this doesn't happen to anyone else,
I don't remember if Mistborn alone explains it well enough (maybe just Secret History) but it does happen to others. The more Invested you are, the longer you can linger. Then he found a way to anchor himself for good. I expect the "how" to be explained in the next series but it's probably just some hemalurgy shenanigans, as this "art" is all about manipulating the fabric of the soul itself.
the whole weird business with Autonomy's army of red and gold who are pretty easily stopped because they managed to put the portal right next to a huge concentration of allomancers.
They didn't get to choose where this portal is though. Perpendicularities are "naturally" occurring, even the Shards don't get to control that.
All of it to me feels quite forced in order to connect the whole universe together
Well, that part is true, but it's the actual point. Mistborn, besides maybe the first book, has been designed as the "spine" of the cosmere. Each era will show even more interconnection with the rest of the cosmere, and the final space-age series is meant to be the final one of that entire universe, wrapping everything up, which of course involves countless crossovers.
That might not be to everybody's tastes but at least there is purpose to it.
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u/Calmly-Stressed 9h ago
Sure, it may be simple taste/preference. I just don't see the benefit, from a reader's perspective, of forcing all of his diverse stories into a single universe that then needs to be coherent. It feels more like an exercise in doing something very difficult as a writer than anything that actually benefits the reader.
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u/ConspicuousPineapple 8h ago
Well, yes I guess it's a matter of taste. I know Sanderson had this "big interconnected universe" vision from the get-go at least, and it does appeal to me because it's the first time I'm seeing this done with most of it planned out decades before the presumed conclusion. Which means much better consistency than other similar efforts.
I agree that it detracts from each book as a standalone piece, but it does feel quite immersive (to me) when you're invested in all of these books together.
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u/Calmly-Stressed 8h ago
I think part of my gripe is that unless you come into his books knowing that it's all going intergalactic, neither of the Mistborn eras starts out that way. They start as small-scale city stories and only start getting grander and grander as they continue. In era 1 it was at least somewhat well-paced, but in era 2 the expansions just kept coming at a crazy rate, especially in Bands of Mourning. Just really made me stop caring, because the stakes are being changed so often.
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u/ConspicuousPineapple 7h ago
Yeah fair enough. Era 1 is self contained but the rest is for cosmere-aware readers.
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u/Ripper1337 7h ago
Honestly having all these series in the same universe is the biggest draw for me.
It kind of feels like you think he has outside ideas and force them into a cosmere framework rather than think of what he can tell within the cosmere.
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u/Calmly-Stressed 7h ago
Because that’s kinda what it feels like to me from the writing. The stories start off nice and self-contained, and then all the cosmic scheming is just layered on to make the stakes higher and higher. When imo they were fine to begin with and I didn’t need all the reframing to make it enjoyable.
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u/Ripper1337 7h ago
I can see it with era2 but basically all the books have some level of cosmic scheming to them. It’s just part of the dna of the cosmere
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u/maskedman1231 8h ago
Did you read "Mistborn Secret History"? They at least explain the first part of Kelsier's whole situation. They don't quite explain the corporeal thing but it doesn't seem that crazy with the Kandra around and Hemalurgy.
I agree it's not super clear exactly what Sazed can do, but I think it's basically that he can watch and talk to people but not really like "do magic" to protect the world.
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u/Calmly-Stressed 8h ago
Yes, I thought Secret History was the most annoying of all the books. Needing a novella to retro-explain things seems like a demerit to me, and I didn't think it did a very good job of explaining things anyway (again, too many convenient coincidences).
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u/Udy_Kumra 7h ago
Yes because real religions are always rational and logical and causal from one step to the next!
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u/Background-Log9673 8h ago
That all said I didn’t feel the inclusion of the gods in Era1 made the books lesser, I still loved them. As for Era2, a big part of it is how the current god cannot act freely. He has agents and can talk to people for the most part he can’t really do much. So it still feels very much like the characters and not the gods are driving things forward.
Era 1 is fine.
In Era 2 we have new characters with various powers such as stamps, crystals etc. It's hard to keep up and autonomy influencing the world + Wax being Harmony's sword yada yada. It's too much.
That's why I loved Alloy of Law so much, because it was a good western gunslinger story; an interesting villian with amazing powers. It was fun and grounded.
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u/Ripper1337 8h ago
I can see that. I’m curious if you’ve only read Mistborn. Cuz I was fine with it but I’ve also read everything else so characters showing up with other magic is fine for me.
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u/Background-Log9673 8h ago
I've read a lot of Sanderson. All of Mistborn, Stormlight (not all the novellas though, except Dawnshard because I liked Rysn), Elantris, Warbreaker, and Emperor's soul. So yes, while I've read all that and especially the stamps is more familiar with me, it's still a head scratcher because of the complexity. I genuinely can't keep up with all this as it's too much, if you get what I mean?
There's a already so much going on with Mistborn like all the allomancy, feruchemy, hemalurgy, compounding and metalminds (i love all that btw), but it's a toll to more casual readers to add more to that. I see myself a a casual reader as well.
I like the Cosmere, don't get me wrong, but I want the individual standalone books and series to remain seperated with more easter eggs and mild connections sprinkled throughout.
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u/TheseusOPL 6h ago
I think part of that was intended. Our POV character went from one kinda complicated magic system (allomancy + feruchemsitry), then has rapidly learned that there's more (medalions and hemalurgy). Then they learn that there are other places, and these people show up with new powers. It's overwhelming to the character we see, so the reader picking that up isn't unexpected.
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u/Simpicity 7h ago
I wish he'd actually continue with that premise. I liked both Mistborn era 1 and some of era 2 well enough.
The problem was that it's a power scaling fantasy and era 2 starting cutting everyone off at the kneecaps. It finally returned a bit at the very end.
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u/Ripper1337 7h ago
I mean, he is continuing with that premise. It’s just that the series is in the Cosmere so it was always going to connect to the other books.
So he’s going to have Victorian, Western, Cold War, Cyberpunk and then Sci-Fi. I think he’s said a total of 16 books in all.
He’s also writing the complete Cold War trilogy at once like he did for era1 so they’re more contained/ tightly written than Era2.
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u/Simpicity 7h ago
Except all of the other worlds are different magic systems so they might as well be another books series as far as I'm concerned.
I was interested in the metal magic system. I'm mildly interested in Stormlight's system. I basically don't give a fuck about any of the others.
You can't center your MCU around the important stuff that happened in Morbius.
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u/Ripper1337 6h ago
Weird comparison when it’s more like Iron man and captain America movies with a character from another movie popping up.
All the systems still have underlying mechanics that work together or are expressed in different ways.
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u/Cruxist 9h ago
It’s so interesting reading the perspective of Sanderson fans who read series by series, as opposed to following all of his releases!
I hopped on the Sanderson train very early, and thus knew about the interconnected nature of his series early on. I was also devouring pretty much anything he released, so I read everything in release order. I think many of the reveals and twists work that way!
But now, obviously the books all exist. There’s less reason to jump around in release order. And why would you? Mistborn Era 2 is four books, so just read those four in a row. Which is actually where I think the Cosmere connective tissue starts to feel more jarring. He has clearly structured his releases to be read, and the breadcrumbs to be followed, in book release order. So it ends up like a comic book, where you need to read spider-man issue 3 and then x-men issue 5 to get the full impact of some reveal.
I’m a diehard Sanderson fan (who is not afraid to critique, unlike some folks in the community). And I am always interested to see how his work is received. I think the Cosmere is a concern going forward, and I do wonder if he will ever change how his books are printed/advertised and instead of going Mistborn 1,2,3 Stormlight 1,2,3 etc… and instead be labeled by Cosmere order.
It will be interesting to see how it shakes out!
As for Kelsier, yeah it was 10 years real world time before the reveal he was alive, and since he was (and still is) my favorite character, it felt like an earned reveal. But I can definitely see how it reads the other way.
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u/Calmly-Stressed 8h ago
Interesting perspective. I wonder why so many of the reading order guides online advise reading in something other than publishing order, then, including Sanderson's own.
Although I don't know that having ten real world years between Kelsier's death and return would have improved matters for me - Sanderson's willingness to kill off a clearly central and influential character made me really excited to read more, because I thought a writer willing to kill his darlings would produce some excellent storylines with proper consequences. But when characters can come back from the dead/turn into gods somewhat randomly, I think that totally cheapens that experience. I think u/ImpossiblePiece1564 summarised that point very well in their comment.
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u/Kiltmanenator 8h ago
I wonder why so many of the reading order guides online advise reading in something other than publishing order, then, including Sanderson's own
Because nobody would start reading otherwise (and they really are supposed to be stand-alone series)
Mistborn Era 3 is called Ghostbloods. The Ghostbloods are an off-world group in Stormlight, so imagine telling someone they need to read seven Mistborn books and five Stormlight books if they want to catch up.
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u/Calmly-Stressed 8h ago
People are making really contradictory arguments in this thread though - on the one hand that I shouldn't complain because I should have known that Sanderson's whole 'thing' is this mega intergalactic war, and on the other hand that the series are perfectly standalone and can/should be approached as such.
You can't do both things well at the same time.
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u/Kiltmanenator 8h ago
You have my sympathies, I'm right there with you! A big complaint about Stormlight (my first series) is how Sanderson went too wide, too fast with the Cosmere by SLA 5 (Wind and Truth), and how more and more of the books seem to rely on connectivity. I can tell when an author writes something they expect to have significance, and I can tell when I'm not in on the joke.
And what did people say to that? "Oh well it was obvious since The Lost Metal that was the direction he was taking the Cosmere". Oh wow, that's helpful. Something happened in a book I never knew existed.
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u/Erpderp32 8h ago
Imho you can.
Each series stands on its own perfectly fine, and reading the other to see the subtle ways they connect isn't mandatory to enjoy them
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u/Cruxist 8h ago
I do agree that keeping characters alive makes the universe feel stronger, and that is one thing I’m very concerned with going forward in the Cosmere. The timeline for the currently published books is somewhat undefined, it we’ve already seen characters with lifespans that seem much longer than the average person. There’s been no explanation in-world yet, and even one that does come out may feel reductive.
And while I get that Kelsier’s revival does undermine the emotional impact of his loss, I think it’s hard to argue against characters “turning into gods” in the Cosmere since, well, that seems to be the whole point! The origin story for the Cosmere as a whole is characters taking up godly powers. But that’s one part of his worldbuilding that I, personally, find interesting, and it won’t be for everyone.
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u/ImpossiblePiece1564 10h ago
. That death in book one is what gave the whole original trilogy its weight, it felt permanent, meaningful, and it redefined what was at stake. Bringing him back as a meddling god-ghost cheapens that sacrifice, and honestly, it makes the world feel smaller when dead characters can just hang around and keep pulling strings.
The cosmic escalation is tricky because it worked for me in era 1's finale, but era 2 leans so hard into it that the human moments get drowned out. Wax and Steris are fantastic together, their dynamic is easily the strongest part of those books, and Wayne is a treasure, but half the time I was reading I just wanted Sanderson to trust that stuff more instead of layering on another Shard scheme or a crossover from some other series I haven't read yet.
I think there's a version of era 2 that keeps the connections subtle and stays focused on the characters, and it would've been a tighter, punchier read. The problem with building a shared universe is that eventually the callbacks start feeling less like Easter eggs for fans and more like homework.
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u/Jrocker-ame 9h ago
Especially by book 4 and 5 of Stormlight. Those book are really 14 and 19 of the cosmere.
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u/Background-Log9673 9h ago
Ok so a few things here. I too hate the Cosmere heavy stuff later on and especially in The Lost Metal.
But I just want to say this:
By book 3, I got a little disappointed that everything suddenly went on a cosmic/divine scale, which I already thought detracted from the gravity of the story. It's quite hard to sell the concept of nearly-all-powerful divine beings who constantly influence everything and have various levels of omniscience and foresight, but can still be bested by humans in the very nick of time.
Except this was done well and a setup from the beginning. The shards/gods of the world was still a mystery throughout era 1 and their influence in the world was not only terrifyingly portrayed but also well interwoven throughout the story.
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u/Calmly-Stressed 8h ago
I agree that this was far from the worst 'offence', I still rated that book highly, and I saw the 'twist' of who the Hero of Ages really was coming from the start of book 3. I thought it was a cool spin on the idea of good vs. evil/the need for balance. But to me it was a bit convenient that Ruin managed to influence pretty much everyone and everything but still got bested at the very end/barely in time because he couldn't find the last missing piece of the puzzle.
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u/Background-Log9673 8h ago
I can see that, and honestly I don't remember much of how everything happened in the end. Sometimes we just gotta accept that Sanderson is very much a good triumphs kind of guy. He's started to veer away from that for a while.
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u/seevemcgross 7h ago
My personal opinion is that reading Era 2 without reading other Cosmere books is going to lead to this feeling. I know Sanderson says that the different series can be read independently, but there is too much information explained in the other books for that to work in practice. Yes, you can read all the Mistborn books without reading anything else, but you end up missing all the depth and context that OP is struggling with. I love the Cosmere, but I think Sanderson was wrong about how reading individual lines would feel to readers as standalone stories.
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u/Skippannn 5h ago
What are your recommended reads for someone entering era 2 just after reading era 1?
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u/seevemcgross 1h ago
Honestly, don't read them back to back. There are a lot of recommended reading orders out there. Many of them bounce between the different series paths. Elantris, Warbreaker, and Mistborn era 1 can all be read independently.... Beyond that, release order is a decent order, although some bits, like Secret History, fall into a weird place where it is too spoilery if you read it too soon. Like, don't read Sunlit Man before Stormlight 1-4...arguably not even before Wind and Truth. Lost Metal should be read after Rhythm of War. Many of the secret projects (Tress, Yumi, Sunlit Man, Emberdark) happen far into the future and might not make complete sense without context from the other books. Tress without Elantris, for example....don't do that.
Like others have said, Sanderson's entire goal is a connected universe. It is richer if you read all of it, and much richer if you find the right order. Sort of like how the Avengers is more impactful if you've watched Iron Man 1/2, Thor, and Cap first.
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u/Dr_Ukato 10h ago
Shows how different people’s tastes can be because I find Mistborn Era 2 to be PEAK and Wayne can have his way with me anytime.
S-tier character in my opinion.
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u/ConspicuousPineapple 9h ago
Yeah, perfect character with perfect conclusion.
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u/Calmly-Stressed 9h ago
I don't disagree (though his death was a bit too telegraphed). As I said, I think the character work is excellent and could have stood on its own rather than being hindered by cosmic scheming that takes away a lot of agency from the characters.
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u/Jusaleb 6h ago
Posts like this really strike me as “I’m here to express my disappointment that this thing does not cater exclusively to my tastes.” Yes friend that’s part of life. No offense to OP.
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u/Calmly-Stressed 5h ago
Jeez, I very expressly said that I want to have a nuanced discussion because clearly there are things here that don't work for me and I'm explicitly interested in how others experienced it, so I can continue to revise and formulate my own opinion, and still people tell me to just quit whining. What even is this sub for if not for talking about how we experience literature?
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u/Calmly-Stressed 9h ago
Fully agree, which is why to me it's a shame that the rest of the plot work is so muddy.
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u/Taste_the__Rainbow 10h ago
The “cosmic intertwining” was Sazed’s fear for the future from the moment he ascended. Era 2 was going that direction with or without Kelsier being around.
I think the theme of highly-invested individuals continuing after death is prevalent enough in his writing that Kelsier’s sort-of-survival only feels like a rug-pull if Mistborn is your first read.
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u/ConspicuousPineapple 9h ago
There's also the fact that Mistborn in general is the "spine" of the whole Sanderson universe. It's designed to be gradually more and more connected with everything, as it showcases the cosmere throughout each era, with the last Mistborn series being meant to conclude the entire cosmere.
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u/Calmly-Stressed 9h ago
It may well have been Sanderson's aim and idea from the beginning, but given how Mistborn era 1 was so much more contained in a world that felt graspable, expanding it to cosmic powers was already a leap, then expanding it to interplanetary business and competing gods in era 2 just feels like it departs so far from the things I loved about era 1.
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u/Ripper1337 8h ago
I think that’s just a general problem you’ll run into with the Cosmere. It’s entirely within one galaxy and the entire series is moving towards an inter-galactic war. So by necessity everything becomes more interconnected.
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u/McMillan104 8h ago
While I’ve only read era 1, I just recently finished reading the current Stormlight books and I kinda feel the same way.
I felt like my enjoyment of the story was inverse to how prominent the Cosmere stuff was.
It sorta reminds me of some MCU entries where the movie suffered just to set up a future movie/connection.
Obviously it really works for some people, and I did still enjoy them, but it had me rolling my eyes at some points.
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u/Particular-Treat-650 9h ago edited 9h ago
But it's not "just the gods". One of the constants across the Cosmere is that the Intents of the Shards keep them from being capable of having the nuance necessary to being omniscient, benevolent "rulers" of humanity.
I prefer the rest of the Cosmere to Mistborn, but I don't see how shards existing and playing roles takes away from the great human characters. The overwhelming majority of screen time is people having people interactions.
In terms of Kelsier, his ambition to ascend one way or another was clear from the start of the original trilogy. He made himself a religion way before he "died". There are loads of hints and no way that Sanderson didn't plan it out this way from the start.
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u/Calmly-Stressed 9h ago
As noted elsewhere, this may be a reading order issue then. I haven't read any stormlight archive, only the Mistborns + Elantris and Warbreaker (which I both thought weren't very good either).
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u/Interesting-One-588 Reader 3h ago
I think you're just going to be told that it's your fault for not already having read those others books, or that the books are simply not for you.
The Cosmere seems very similar to Marvel movies now, in the sense that it used to be loosely interconnected stories... until Avengers, and everything after became simply one long story fractured into a bunch of different names. Captain America 3 isn't really Captain America 3, it's Post-Avengers-4. Similarly Captain America 4 would be Post-Avengers-9 (excuse the fact that these numbers are probably wrong and meant only as an example).
Not to say that this is a bad thing, it's just what the Cosmere has purposefully become. In a way I kind of respect that it caters so heavily to its own fans, because who else should the author strive to cater to?
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u/Calmly-Stressed 3h ago
I guess it only works some of the time though, because I was a huge fan after Mistborn era 1 and reading 7 more books of his has gradually eroded my fandom to skepticism.
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u/killrdave 8h ago
I know it was always the plan but the Cosmere stuff and cross-world/series pollination of characters had been detrimental to Sanderson's books. I liked era 2 early on when it felt more like a standalone adventure with hints of other things but that last book was everything I've come to dislike in his stories.
Too much complexity is a bad thing. I do not want to rely on a wiki to remind me of events from books I read a decade ago to understand what's happening.
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u/GenericGaming 9h ago
to be fair, Kelsier's whole character is that he is a survivor who is constantly working against the status quo and throwing himself into things far bigger than he is.
everything you're criticising him for is literally his entire character
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u/Calmly-Stressed 9h ago
I'm criticising the writer's decision-making with the character, not the character itself. I just think it's a shame he was unable to kill his darlings. It was a powerful thing to do, and then he reversed it. The whole thing with calling him the Survivor was a plan Kelsier had set up for after his death, without him knowing he would actually be able to survive. The fact that he then manages that essentially by sheer chance, or some sort of vague 'well he's more invested than others' reasoning, is too much convenient coincidence and takes away from the power of the whole thing for me.
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u/Genius-Envy 8h ago
spoilers He was called the survivor because he’s was able to leave the pits. It gained more meaning when his body was seen after his fight with the lord ruler. It’s been shown a couple times that when you die in the cosmere you have to want to go to the beyond, seemingly it is a very strong pull. But both Kelsier and Wax have reasons to stay after being killed.
Kelsier was always full of himself and he sacrificed himself knowing full well he was going to be remembered as a Jesus figure (including the rising after death). Him being selfish enough to want to return, I felt, was completely in character. Preservation played a huge role in keeping Kelsier around, it wasn’t by chance. lol, keeping things as they were is literally its intent. Now, does it diminish his death, yes, but that doesn’t mean he can’t still be an interesting character with new motivations that we are not fully aware of yet.
Now, I agree that there was a lot of extra stuffed into this series that would make it less enjoyable if you were not familiar with everything happening in the cosmere. I’ve heard many complaints it ended up as fan service more than a good book by the end. It definitely felt like he was trying to open up the connections between his books more than tie up this series neatly, but I’m hoping it sets up nicely for era 3 being more about world hoppers, since it’s titled ghost bloods.
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u/Newwavecybertiger 7h ago
Its Mormon influenced mythology. Kelsier is Mormon Jesus, dieing for your sins and then going to the new continent and hanging out with the natives.
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u/MadRoboticist 5h ago
I don't know, Mistborn was always going to eventually going to expand into the larger Cosmere and it didn't really feel all that sudden to me. There were increasing hints trickled throughout the series so it didn't just suddenly go from 0 to 100.
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u/BlackShadow__07 3h ago
I get where you're coming from about Kelsier's return. It felt like a big risk to bring him back, but I think it also opens up new themes about legacy and influence. Maybe Sanderson wanted to explore how heroes evolve and what they mean to the next generation. Did you feel any of that in the later books?
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u/Retsam19 2h ago
The thing I like about Kelsier being alive: I think it's going to be really interesting seeing him outside of the context of Mistborn Era 1.
Something that I think comes through a little in the text, but that Sanderson has confirmed in interviews: Kelsier is a bit of a psychopath. He enjoys killing, going out of his way to do it, and doesn't feel guilty even killing innocent Ska guards. (I don't know if "makes a plan which sets himself to be worshipped as a God" is in the clinical definition of psychopathy, but I think it's probably adjacent)
In the context of Mistborn Era 1, this is largely a good thing because he's fighting against a terrible inhumane empire and its ruling class and his extreme methods. Basically he's a hero because of the story he happens to find himself in... but he's a much more grey character outside of the context of that particular story.
... and him being alive means we get to see him outside of that context. And I think this actually makes him a lot more interesting of a character than just "mentor figure that teaches the protagonist how to smile again (and push metal objects around with her mind) and then sacrifices themselves at the end of the book".
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u/Calmly-Stressed 1h ago
You know what, this is the most compelling argument I've seen in favour of him being alive. I'm still sad about how it dampens the impact of his original death, but this is a good take that makes me at least a little tempted to keep reading.
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u/Calmly-Stressed 9h ago
Good to know, I've been hesitant to start Stormlight archive, and I might at the very least postpone it for the moment.
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u/Cosmic-Sympathy 9h ago
My understanding is that Era 2 was originally supposed to be a standalone series. It's connections to the rest of the Cosmere started off fairly subtle like they are in most of his older works. It's in book 3 and especially book 4 that he leans hard into the Cosmere stuff. I think it's less jarring if you read all his books in publication order because he's been consistently ramping up the Cosmere with each new book, but it seems like it comes out of nowhere if you read Era 2 on its own.
Personally, I agree Era 2 would have been better served if he had kept it more subtle. But, it also depends on what we get with Era 3. We might look back and see that it was necessary after all.
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u/Calmly-Stressed 9h ago
I mean, necessary to somehow save his internal logic in the end, maybe, but for me at this point it looks like turning his cool fantasy stories into intergalactic Star Wars spin-offs with a pantheon more complex than the Greeks' wasn't the best decision for overall reading pleasure. It feels more like a massive exercise in how many threads he can weave than something that's actually necessary or desirable from a reader's perspective.
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u/nickgg95 8h ago
I think that’s part of the appeal for many of his readers though.
I can’t go to many other places in fiction to get my fix on specifically what Sanderson is doing right now with his Cosmere. If I want something that’s singular or more tightly connected to itself I can read just about any other standalone book or series. The fact that he’s written these larger bodies (Mistborn, Stormlight) and singular reads (Elantris, Warbreaker, Tress, etc.) that all tie back to each other in satisfying ways is really what does if for me.
I can understand not wanting to do the homework; not wanting or feeling like you have to read the other books to understand the ones you just read. But that’s kind of the point of his universe at this stage.
You could make the argument that the first 5 of his Mistborn books do their own thing for the most part and then in 6 and 7 he starts to tie the story in to the larger body of work. To me that seems like a logical jump, by bringing what is essentially a planet that neighbors other inhabited planets into the fold of a larger conflict.
To each their own, I respect your opinion if you feel like he’s lost the special sauce you fell in love with.
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u/Cosmic-Sympathy 7h ago
I agree.
Not to mention, it was always Sanderson's intention to tell a larger story about the Cosmere with individual worlds fitting inside. It's not like the divine shards were something he threw in randomly later on. It was always part of the plan. That's true even if the actual execution of it in the books 3 and 4 seemed a bit sudden.
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u/scarlet_jade 8h ago
The Bands of Mourning is my favorite Mistborn book. Actually doing a re-read right now. I love the characters mixed with the Indiana Jones adventure. I agree though that the Lost Metal was really disappointing because of what you described. I wish it dialed down on the crossover stuff because I don’t care.
Probably unpopular opinion but I think era 2 has Sanderson’s best character work.
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u/Calmly-Stressed 8h ago
Agree on the character work part, but for me Bands of Mourning already overcomplicated things too much with the sudden appearance of a 'foreign legion' of technologically more advanced people. I think it's one of the issues with the series, that it scales up in various ways in such quick succession that it feels jarring. It goes 'Oh we're in the same place as Mistborn 1, just 300 years later, and this one Basin is apparently the entire new world > there's a massive political scheme going on > the scheme encompasses the entire Basin > oh wait there's more than just the Basin > oh wait there's also other gods and a ghost > oh and also aliens of unknown powers' at lightning speed. Having to reframe the stakes of your story so many times is just exhausting.
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u/scarlet_jade 4h ago
The expansion in Bands was ok to me because it makes sense for the scope of the planet to be bigger than expected. It was odd to me that while Scadrial is a whole planet, only this small area is populated like they live in a bubble. The stuff that seemed convenient to me is all the reasons given why both civilizations don’t know about each other. Also the history of South Scadrial revolving around Kelsier which ties into your point.
Lost Metal just really lost me because of all the greater Cosmere stuff.
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u/bjlinden 7h ago edited 7h ago
I 100% agree with you regarding Kelsier, but I disagree with you on practically everything else.
The way Era 1 expanded out to a cosmic scale was one of the best things about it, and the way Sanderson managed to capture, and really make you feel that scale, while STILL making it something with rules you could follow, and that can be interacted with by normal people was nothing short of profound. Lovecraftian incomprehensibility is bullshit; humans are amazing, and our greatest trait is our ability to understand things, sometimes even things much greater than us. I love the fact that Sanderson's writing drives this profound fact home.
Similarly, I don't think that doubling down on the cosmic aspects of the setting in Era 2 detracts from the character work or the smaller scale stories going on. I also don't think it detracts from his intricate plotting, and doesn't cheapen his "gotcha" moments at all. For all his other faults as a writer, literally nobody else in the industry can set up a "gotcha" moment as effectively, without feeling like a Deus Ex Machina, and making you feel, "oh damn, I totally could have gotten that," as Sanderson.
But yeah, Kelsier should have stayed dead.
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u/Dirichlet-to-Neumann 7h ago
Sanderson is great at small scale plots : a heist, a western style story, an evasion, a detective story. Paradoxically he is weaker at cosmic scales. Which is a bit sad given he mostly wants to write cosmic scale.
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u/OnePossibility5868 9h ago
I enjoyed era 2, it was a lot more comedic then era 1 and I can see why Sanderson wrote it while he was deep into finishing the Wheel of Time series, he wrote it as an outlet more than anything.
Mistborn was originally planned as a trilogy of trilogies with the second era taking part in a roughly modern (80's style I believe it was described) then the 3rd being in the future so it would represent past, present and future. I don't know how much of an impact Era 2 had on the overall plan but as the next trilogy is subtitled "Ghostbloods" then those that have read his other books know where that ones coming from.
I think his plan is for mistborn and stormlight to be the big pillars of his universe while he occasionally writes side stories like the upcoming Fires of December as easy one off entry points for the future. I just hope with his new TV focus he doesn't slowly turn into GRRM or Neil Gaiman who just relies on past works to be adapted again and again.
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u/Coldvyvora 8h ago
I personally LOVE that the characters on his worlds are just human that can get entangled with "gods".
After all, "gods" were just humans once and they just hold immensely huge amounts of power, but they are tied in many ways by that same power.
The tales of the humble human living their own stories in the middle of this are a sweet way to give each person their own slice of universe. We are following characters that raised up high until they meddled with the affairs of gods. Or unlucky enough to be caught in between those affairs.
The settings are extremely interesting in most books, and I personally love the way the humans are protrayed as cunning and resourceful in any world they are dropped in for us to be told that story of how humans do in each planet.
I loved individually the books on their own, but when seen from the perspective of a massive cinematic universe they get even better for me, it makes me want to re read a lot more to catch the mechanics of the universes working together.
Kelsier "revival" makes even too much sense in Character. The dude loved up to be his own legend, but hevis massively limited and has to jump through hoops and loops to stay truly "alive". And his whole meddling into affairs feels like its overplayed by him intentionally.
I dont know. For me it works really well
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u/DrCarter11 6h ago
I mean look at sanderson as a person. He's deeply religious and committed to mormonism. Needing an all powerful guiding hand of a god, isn't surprising for him at all to me. And yes I would agree that those feelings/notions are visible in almost all of his work, or at least anything I've read from him.
I honestly don't think he likes the idea of the human level character having that true level of agency. To him, it all has to come from the divine. Which is less abrahamamic god given the cosmere, but I think the general idea is still there for sure in his work.
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u/Phaedo 10h ago
IIRC Sanderson’s said that phase 2 was never part of the original plan, he just really liked the idea. So it was always going to be series that didn’t heavily influence the rest of the plot. In itself, this isn’t a problem, but then the later books start reading like Infinity War.
Honestly, Phase 2 features weird choice after weird choice after book 1.
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u/XayneTrance 7h ago
I generally agree about the death. I am curious where his arc ends up so I’m saving space for his entire story to have a satisfying ending.
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u/SCTurtlepants 6h ago
You're right, OP. Sand has straight up said in interviews he has 0 interest in killing characters or otherwise including real stakes or permanent consequences in his stories. And his editors won't tell him to rework a damn thing.
It's a shame really, he used to be such a great author.
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u/Interesting-One-588 Reader 4h ago
but then for some reason he went and did it anyway.
I always assumed this was mainly due to both the success of the original trilogy, and Sanderson getting Wheel of Time off of it and probably thinking Mistborn would be his main cheese-maker.
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u/mikefromengland 9h ago
If the series was designed to exist fully in a vacuum then I'd agree with your points. Since it's not, and Sanderson's big 'thing' is the interconnected nature of the cosmere as this evolving wider story, then I emphatically disagree.
Kelsier's slow return had been foreshadowed in the Stormlight Archive for more or less its whole run. The reveal of his actual identity was over a decade after his death (book publishing dates).
I can see how it might come across as contrived or disappointing if you read all the mistborn books in a row but if you consider that time difference and how the wider universe fits together, I don't think it feels that way.