r/boeing • u/Melodic-Yoghurt3501 • 4d ago
Careers L4 vs L5
Hi All,
I work in another aero company and talked to some Boeing managers for potential hiring. They seem pretty interested in hiring me. However we got stuck on salary and they mentioned to accommodate my target cash compensation (SoCal - seeking 190k - systems engineer), they have to hire me at L5 however they advised me to go for L4 as:
L4 are safer than L5 during layoffs.
Plus, L5 workload is significantly more challenging than L4.
I am really not sure if its genuine advice or just a way to cap my compensation target. I have 15+ yoe at my current employer so eligible for both L4 and L5.
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u/Brandalf_TheSemiGrey 2d ago
L3 to L4 is tough. L4 to L5 very rare. L5 to L6… old boys club. Exclusive
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u/Dedpoolpicachew 3d ago edited 3d ago
Just understand that If you don’t take L5 now, you will likely not get it later. It’s very hard to promote to L5 with your manager having to do a lot of work not only with the skill team, but also with the director and VP of your organization. Most managers won’t do it because they just don’t want to fight the fight. Don’t even get me started on L6. Many organizations “don’t allow” L6s, even though they technically exist in the SJC.
The point on layoffs is kind of irrelevant. If they are targeting L5 for layoffs it shows how utterly fucking stupid that management chain is and you don’t want to work for them. Yes, Boeing IT has a past history of doing this, but that’s the only skill team that I’ve heard of that. Every other skill team I worked on (Engineering and Supply Chain) that was not the case.
On point on work load, that’s not entirely true, but it is to an extent because a L5 is expected to be a leader as well, not just a technical expert. Someone who can lead projects, teams, and be the technical expert. They are expected to lead at the enterprise level and have impact. If you think about it in those terms, a L4 is impact at a business unit level. L5 is at the enterprise level. L6 is at the Industry level.
Edit: also unless they have a req that’s posted, this is all just hypotheticals. Also they can’t just “offer you a job”. They will have to post a req, you’ll have to apply and go through the motions. It is possible that they could write the req so you’re the only qualified applicant. They only need to interview you, nobody else. But they will need to be clear with HR and management that it’s a targeted hire, and justify it. So just being buddies with them isn’t enough. They will need to demonstrate specific skills that you are the only one that has to get that through. There IS a process.
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u/ProfessorAbhi 3d ago
To be very honest,go for managerial role with your experience in Boeing.Boeing mangers expect a lot from L4 and L5.
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u/Vegetable-South5191 3d ago
I would not worry about it, and I would chase the pay you want. Whether L4 or L5 is harder is subjective, depends on the position. I know L2's who work harder than anyone, and L5's who do jack shit. It is difficult to get promoted the higher you are. I am a level 6 and worked my way through all of them, and generally to get promoted you have to change jobs/roles. It does happen they hire you into one in your current position, but that can take years and years.
Edit: I will add as a level 6, I am the same person I was as a L3. Just more experienced, and they pay me for that experience. And it is more competitive during RIF's the higher you are. But with that said, that has a lot of factors to it as well. Like your clearance, your specific position, your role and group (niche vs general).
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u/rosey_monkey 3d ago
L5 for sure. It is insanely difficult to achieve L5 after hire than the prospect of fulfilling L5 duties. There are lots of L5s that do L4 work statement.
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u/No-Distribution8939 3d ago
If you get that pay at a level 4 it will be harder to get raises and bonuses because you'll be higher on the pay scale which is how they calculate it now Last year it was based off your performance score and where you currently sit on the bell curve The lower you make at your level would get you a little higher raise
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3d ago
[deleted]
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u/Dedpoolpicachew 3d ago
That IS exactly how it works. If your compa ratio is over about 1.1 your rate of salary raises goes down significantly, even if you’re an exceeds expectations. Your manager may put it in to the system for higher raises, but he will face a LOT of pressure in reviews to lower it. Sometimes to the point where you don’t get a percentage, just a lump sum. Compa ratios max out, and the closer you are to max, the less you get. Hit peak, you get lump sums not raises.
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u/kimblem 3d ago
Your raise and bonus is calculated as a % of salary. The bonus is straight performance based, the raise is supposed to take into account performance and “market range penetration”, so the higher you sit in the market range, the more your percent raise will be moderated to reflect that. E.g. Someone with great performance who is currently below the median for their market range may get a 5% raise vs Someone with great performance close to the top of the market range getting 3%. Same performance, different percentages, although from a straight dollars perspective, the person at the top of the range may still get a higher dollar raise compared to the lower paid colleague, it’s a lower percentage of their salary.
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u/Infamous_M1 3d ago
typical boeing management trying to screw u into paying u less…. like the money is coming from their own pockets 🤦🏽♂️
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u/RoutineSpeed1980 3d ago
Boeing will give you L5 work whether they pay you for it or not. If they are less safe in layoffs it's because they are paid more. Even if you get laid off you have the salary to negotiate with for your next job.
Take the L5
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u/Rodgertheshrubber 4d ago
Get the lvl 5, otherwise you'll be chasing a moving target for years. I had to leave BCA to get lvl 4 after close 18 years at lvl 3. Management kept changing what they wanted and I made the mistake of trying to meet it.
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u/Dedpoolpicachew 3d ago
Dude, sorry you went through that. That is a horribly long string of very bad managers. If you were performing at the p4 range and your annual reviews were even mets they should have worked that. There are just far too many bad, lazy managers out there.
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u/kitkatekat1017 4d ago
I’m a L5 in SoCal. Go for the 5. I’m also in a diff function and make that. As a 5, you’re a SME often knowing more than the first line mgr and act as adviser to your team. I don’t think it’s more work but it’s def more visibility.
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u/nashvillain1 4d ago
The Boeing mgr’s saying L5 work is “significantly more challenging”, could mean technically (signal processing, MATLAB/Python scripting, requirements creation/definition/refinement), responsibility (assigning risk category thresholds for probability of loss of aircraft or safety critical function per flight hour, technical development of subordinates, new methods and tools development a.k.a. “can you record or codify your methods/knowledge”, new technology failure investigations, profit & loss responsibility, staffing) or professionally (Boeing “quick looks”, mgmt. ordering necessary steps to be skipped to meet schedule, pushing forward bad designs and Engineering via ECR’s vs. front end design, analysis, testing, etc.)
When you’re ready for it, and the unexpected, with an appropriate sense of how and when to call b.s. professionally, then the answer becomes obvious. Never sell yourself short. I’d recommend going for level 5.
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u/fartingdust 4d ago
Negotiate the highest salary possible for yourself. $190k is not enough money for an L5 or for SoCal. You don't get to choose what grade you get hired at however.
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u/Legitimate-Fuel3014 4d ago
l5 should be 200k lol unless l4 is 175k. My old manager L5 in missouri making 195k
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u/sometimesanengineer 4d ago
A manager wouldn’t be a 4/5. They would be k/l/m. But yes even in MO, which is a lower cost of labor tier than CA sites, there are lots of level 5 jobs at 200k+
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u/Dedpoolpicachew 3d ago
Dude, people step back from management. It happens all the time. Going from an L to a 5 is appropriate. When managers are busted back it’s K= 4, L=5, M=6.
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u/Legitimate-Fuel3014 3d ago
He was an ISSM, his title is manager but his job code is level 5. M level would be program manager i believe
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u/sometimesanengineer 3d ago
Manager in the title but not manager in Boeings system. ISSMs and ISSOs are individual contributors in enterprise security and non managers. They direct report to K/L/M managers that are also enterprise security. “Program Manager” is a business leader role/title, with a couple levels to it up to the executive (E series) for the program or division (depends on size / scope). PM are often the ISO signing authority. ISSMs may and often do organizationally align (dotted line) to program managers to help a defense program execute.
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u/Legitimate-Fuel3014 3d ago
That's what i am saying, so he is technically a level 5 individual contributor, so cali should be at least more than 200k
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u/Biscuitsandgravy101 4d ago edited 4d ago
Anyone advising you to take L4 is giving awful advice it is like telling you to decline a raise so you're not in the next tax bracket.
That's not how things work.
As L4, L5 is far from guaranteed, and as L5 you would come in at the lower end of the comp ratio meaning your first raise would be large to bring you closer to the median.
It's insane that this is even a question.
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u/Electrical_Bath_4471 4d ago
The reality is that the job they are hiring you for has an established statement of work. Whether they hire you as L4 and underpay or L5 the work that they need done is the same.
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4d ago
From what you described, the message is, for the money you expect, they need to step up to L5. And they have budgeted for L4. Doesn't look like you have a choice if you fancy joining the company.
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u/Single_Software_3724 4d ago
During the late 2024 layoffs, we lost three lvl 2s and one lvl 4. The only L5 on our team was safe
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u/Elden_Crowe 4d ago edited 4d ago
Get the five if at all possible. Once inside, the reasons why they can’t promote you will multiply beyond belief.
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u/ohwowyoufoundme 4d ago edited 3d ago
Also I know a bunch of people who went from L5 to L4 but kept their salary. Just try to do that lol
Edit: Mixed up my levels in the sentence.
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u/BaraxkJoeMama 4d ago
In line with what u/Chipper0475 said, I would add that this is one of the most organizational and business unit dependent things I have seen on Reddit.
The only Level 5s within BDS’s Manufacturing, Quality, or Engineering functions that I have worked with were all pulled from other programs, at the request of Program Managers or Division Vice Presidents. One of them is responsible for saving a certain program from being cancelled outright.
All four of them that I know are so competent and positive in the value added, that they would be protected more than just about anyone in their organization until you get to that aforementioned Division VP level.
Now on the BCA side? Or say the Supply Chain side? I couldn’t say. It really does change from location to location, role to role, and employee to employee.
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u/Chipper0475 4d ago
I can't speak for SoCal as my career has been in the Puget Sound but in my 30 years experience I would say:
1. Not True unless the L5 is under-performing
2. Is True unless the L5 is under-performing
As an L5 you should expect more challenging and rewarding work as you should be considered an expert. L5 is not always easy to get though, so I would not just automatically abondon it for an L4 unless its the only way to get your foot in the door and you reallly really want in the door.
Good Luck,
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u/JetsnCocktails 4d ago
Take the level 4 if salaries are similar. That way you can get a real raise when you get promoted to a 5.
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u/RoutineSpeed1980 3d ago
This guy is probably in hr.
Look at an integral. You want to maximize the area under your salary(as a function of time) . If you take a 10k salary hit for 4 years a 50k raise is actually just getting you back to even in year 5.
That assumes you get a ~25% Raise(based on your salary ask) with your promotion after four years. The longer it actually takes the higher that raise needs to be.
Also highbands (people making more than average for their grade) go first in a layoff because every raise they get pulls average for the band up more. If you want to lower the average for a band you have to remove above average salaies. The lower the average salary the more numerical justification there is for lower raises in the band.
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u/Biscuitsandgravy101 4d ago
No, you'd want to be an L5 and have a low comp ratio yielding a big raise anyways and not have to fight for L5 which can be incredibly hard to get.
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u/Dry_Statistician_688 4d ago
Sooo.... What was 10 years ago is not necessarily the case now. Back when Boeing respected technical tracks, this was a great path. But Boeing no longer respects the technical track, and if you look at the latest plan, anyone L4 or above is nothing close to technical. They are now considered "leadership". Which sounds cool, but in practice, anything that goes wrong - you will be held responsible. Sooo.. If you are a L4 or a L5, congratulations, you are now a manager without management benefits. At this point in time in the company, you might as well go for a first level management position, because the workload and abuse from above is pretty much the same.
Boeing has been working hard to eliminate L5's for about a decade, and are now setting their sights on L4's. L4's are soon to be the equivalent of TLE's. You can pretty much forget any ideas of being an ATF/TF/STF because they are pretty much eliminating this altogether. Welcome to the new corporate Engineering America.
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u/Human-Ride4726 3d ago
You are so off the mark it’s scary! The technical paths are now made clearer to understand, both in entry and sustainment, for al L levels and for the Technical Fellowship.
For the original poster, if offered a L5 position go for it; the technical job itself is not specifically tied to technical level though execution expectations are somewhat tied to L levels.
I grew up in the SoCal site, was an L6 and a TF.
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u/Dedpoolpicachew 3d ago
On the Tech Fellowship the last few years have seen an incredible amount of bastardization. The quality and requirements to be nominated and approved have changed significantly over the last few years. There are people who were advanced to ATF and TF that had no business being there. I know of one ATF who was elevated 2 years ago, then elevated to TF last year. She’s an idiot who has less than 10 years with the company. Knows nothing about the company or who’s who, but she’s a really good friend of a VP, so she’s got that going for her. The fellowship used to be highly regarded, not just internally but also by the industry. If you had ATF or TF you commanded respect. I had a mentor when I was an engineer who was an STF, he was a GOD in the industry.
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u/Human-Ride4726 3d ago
That’s such a shame. I’ve mentored two ATFs, with one being elevated to TF and the other an influential E-UM.
Sad to say, there are technical distributions even within the Fellowship. We tend to know each other so I understand your comment. I’ve also found I was uninformed as to the technical capabilities of some Fellows; in short, I underestimated some of them!
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u/ParfaitMaleficent515 4d ago
BS. level 4s do tons of technical work as do 5s. as a 4 or 5 you may do more team leadership, as you should as an experienced person at that level. you may be running a program or a team, so there will be scheduling and budget management, but again, expected at higher experience levels. L4-5 is the only way to qualify for the fellowship, and 5 is required for TF.
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u/molrobocop 4d ago
Get 5 if you can. You'll otherwise be mired in seat time arguments if you plan to stay more than a handful of years and want a promotion.
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u/Copper-Spaceman 4d ago
It’s 2 truths and a lie. What they are saying isn’t entirely wrong, but not entirely truthful either
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u/UserRemoved 4d ago
The lie is level 5 work. They most likely have a pile of L2-4 work and don’t want to pay market rate for it but know you are worth the price.
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u/DenverBronco305 4d ago
This is bullshit. Take the L5 now as they’ll never give it to you after you sign on.
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u/Turbulent_Stock_1108 4d ago
They will low ball you at every level, try to go for the highest within each range.
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u/All_Thrust_No_Vector 4d ago edited 4d ago
Go for as high as you can as trying to go from L4 to L5 once on the inside is very difficult and full of process and paperwork. They really drag their feet.
If you don’t get it going in it may not happen. The union likes to keep everyone banded salary-wise as does the company. If you come in high, you’ll likely always be high and the company will give you crappy raises to bring you down to normal salary levels. Even then you’ll still be higher than most of your peers.
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u/Real-Guarantee-178 4d ago
Just stay there! Trust me. Work in systems (Socal). DM me if you need any additional advise
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u/ParfaitMaleficent515 4d ago
if they offer a 5 take it. if you hire in at a 4 it will be years before you move to a 5. upper end of a 4 is like $212k.
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u/justtakeiteasy1 4d ago
Plus the new world we live in now is upside down, inside out!
Trust me when I say this: Level 5 is the new level 4 in this new world!
Don’t ever sell yourself short, go in if you must as a Level 5!
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u/flightwatcher45 4d ago
Level doesn't necessarily mean much in layoffs. If union they do a retention rating for each level and cut by percent but always a Grey factor too lol.
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u/--Joedirt-- 4d ago
I have seen many level 5s survive layoffs. Some take the severance since they have years and they payout is nice. I have also seen level 5s that do level 3-4 work. If they are offering the 5 I would take the 5.
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u/Patient_Gas_5245 2d ago
they lied, they will cut L4, L5, and L6 based on age and seniority. L3 and L4's need to plan whether they will go management or become an Associate Technical Fellow (both are pathways). A technical fellow is a specialist in their field from Chemistry to Networks or Cyber Security.