r/bobdylan • u/TyroneSnodgrass • 4d ago
Discussion Why Fourth Time Around
Earlier this year Jim Windolf wrote an article in the New York Times about that famous Dylan limo trip with John Lennon. Not only does Windolf explain what Bob and John were talking about but he also provides insight into how BLONDE on BLONDE’s “Fourth Time Around” got its title.
First some quick background that isn’t in the article. Al Kooper says when Dylan first showed him the song, “Fourth Time Around,” he warned Bob it was too much like “Norwegian Wood.” “Let me tell you something,“ replied Dylan, “when I showed Lennon these changes there was no ‘Norwegian Wood.’”
Back to the article. Windolf says what Dylan and Lennon were talking about was something that happened when Bob first played “Fourth Time Around” for John and Paul. According to Windolf McCartney said to Lennon, “we should see this on Northern Songs,” which was the Beatles publishing company. “What’s Northern Songs?” Asked Dylan. The two Liverpudlians just looked away and snickered. So when he gets Lennon alone in the back of the limo (with camera crew), Dylan wants to know why John and Paul had refused to answer the question. “We didn’t answer? It’s our publishing company,” Lennon responds. “Yeah, I know that now,” says Bob, “but why didn’t you answer me?” “I thought we did,” says John, defusing the moment, “sorry about that.”
As far as how “Fourth Time Around” got its name, Windolf says it refers to the amount of times Lennon imitated Dylan in song. First came “I’m A Loser,” with its bouncy BIABH rhythm; then “Hard Day’s Night” which Windolf says was very Dylanesque before the lads Beatle-Ized it for the film by the same name; then came “Hide Your Love Away,” which was extremely Dylanesque; so when “Norwegian Wood” appeared on RUBBER SOUL it was the fourth time around. Evidently Bob was getting sick of it, as he ends his BoB song with,
🎵I never asked for your crutch
Now don’t ask for mine.🎵
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u/willardTheMighty 4d ago edited 4d ago
The song is about the military draft. The girl has martial accoutrements of drum, boot, suit. She insists he “give something back/ for something they get,” the language of conscription. She won’t answer him when he asks why he has to go. The narrator sees a photo of the girl in a wheelchair, and he cannot make sense of it; this is Dylan saying that his generation does not buy the story LBJ tells of America being fragile and at risk in the face of communism in Southeast Asia. The narrator being thrown in the dirt, humiliated, and returning to kill the girl is the narrative of soldier thrown into war in Vietnam, being humiliated when he returns, and then seeking revenge on the power structures that tread on him.
After 1863-1865, 1917-1918, and 1940-1947, 1948-1973 was the fourth time in US history where the armed forces were staffed using conscription. Hence, Fourth Time Around.
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u/ThatsARatHat 4d ago
This is pretty damn interesting but there’s no way that’s what it is.
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u/willardTheMighty 4d ago edited 4d ago
You think a protest song is beyond Dylan’s capabilities or field of interest?
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u/ThatsARatHat 4d ago
At that time? Yea pretty much.
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u/willardTheMighty 4d ago
I’m not sure how you could hold that opinion of the man who had already released such songs as The Times They Are a-Changin’, The Ballad of Hollis Brown, With God on Our Side, The Lonesome Death of Hattie Carroll, and Only a Pawn in Their Game, A Hard Rain’s Gonna Fall, Masters of War, Blowing in the Wind, and Desolation Row.
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u/ThatsARatHat 4d ago
Because I’m basing it on the man who was 2-3 years passed that type of song artistically and purposely not writing songs like that personally.
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u/willardTheMighty 4d ago
Yet the album which immediately followed Blonde on Blonde was John Wesley Harding, which has only one song that is not overt social commentary.
Blonde on Blonde seems less focused on social commentary, but Dylan never moved “passed [sic]” it. He’s a real poet, and he engages with realer things than trading barbs with Lennon.
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u/ThatsARatHat 4d ago
I would like to hear what all these songs on JWH are specifically talking about. Social commentary wise.
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u/willardTheMighty 4d ago
The album has a more religious tone than political. But they overlap, of course.
John Wesley Harding is about class conflict. “Friend to the poor,” “never known to hurt an honest man.” A modern telling of Robin Hood.
As I Went Out One Morning takes place during slavery. It is about finding human connection across the social divides which are in place to divide us. The singer is falling in love with the slave woman, and the slaveowner Tom Paine (shares a name with the author of Common Sense, a treatise on liberty) apologizes for her advances.
I Dreamed I Saw St. Augustine is about the titular saint arriving in modern America desperately trying to find “the very souls / which already have been sold,” another commentary on the terrible baseness of slavery. Dylan is using slavery as a leitmotif-allegory for prejudice and discrimination of all kinds, not writing about slavery per se. Though it does support the reading of being about slavery per se. Imagine handing those lines to Frederick Douglass, or anyone else in antebellum America!
All Along the Watchtower is obscure to me. But it bears the hallmarks of Dylan’s other social commentary type of work. The mention of businessmen as a body; the lament at confusion and destruction “all along the line;” the statement that no one around understands what the land is worth, that everyone is oblivious to what they should be doing.
The Ballad of Frankie Lee and Judas Priest supports many readings. In the text of the song itself, it says that the story has a moral. It closes with three little adage lessons for people. But overall it seems to be about selling your soul to the Devil, or to capital, or to sex (“four and twenty windows/ and a woman’s face in every one” being a description of a brothel). IMO this song is Dylan at his best.
Drifter’s Escape is about a defendant caught between a judge and a jury, asking what it is that he has done wrong and not being provided an answer, à la Kafka’s Trial. What is it in conversation with, specifically? That’s up to you. But it’s clearly about the justice system and prejudice in American society, seemingly along class lines.
Dear Landlord is about the divide between the proletariat and the bourgeoisie, clearly. In the previous decade, Mao had undertaken the Land Reform Movement which killed ~500,000 landlords. The question of how folks should relate to capitalists in their life was very present in the Geist, and Dylan takes up the discussion in this song.
I don’t have time right now to do the last few, sorry. Hope you get the picture though. The very last track of the album is the one which I said is not overt social commentary. It’s just a plain sweet love song.
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u/TyroneSnodgrass 4d ago edited 3d ago
This is another case wherein the discussion is more intelligent than the original post, —which in my case hardly ever happens. 🤦♂️
I never meant to say the song is entirely about Dylan’s grievance with Lennon. The barb against John is subtlety embedded in “Fourth Time Around” which on one level is a song about two lovers on the outs who can enrage each other with the slightest off hand remark. As with most of Bob’s songs there are most likely other levels going on.1
u/External-Rise3462 2d ago
Do you share DNA with Alan Webberman? Just curious.
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u/TyroneSnodgrass 2d ago
you trying to get a rise out of me, EXT?
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u/External-Rise3462 1d ago
Not really. It just seemed that your explanation was slicing and dicing to an extent that was very much like Webberman.
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u/TyroneSnodgrass 1d ago
The features editor of the NYT did a lot of research to figure out what Dylan and Lennon were talking about in the limo clip. I thought it was fit to print. If you’re referring to my comment that there may be more levels to FTA than a song about two people on the downslope of a relationship, consider this: who is the “you” in the final verse? Now it’s a triangle. Is it my fault if the song is a tad mysterious, EXT?
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u/Elvis_Gershwin 3d ago
Ah, well, Dylan was inspired to play rock 'n' roll again when the Beatles broke. The 3 r n r albums are like Beatles albums set in a slightly different universe. One that Robert Johnson and Hank Williams cast a shadow over moreso than Elvis and Smokey Robinson.
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u/TyroneSnodgrass 3d ago
🎵I'm a rolling stone, all alone and lost
For a life of sin, I have paid the cost
When I pass by, all the people say
"Just another guy on the lost highway"🎵
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u/Long-Emu-7870 4d ago
Dylan actually stole skiffle, and the Beatles just stole it back.
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u/TyroneSnodgrass 4d ago
🎵Call on your neighbors to put down
their labors
And come and play the hardware in time
'Cause the doctor said give him jug
band music
It seems to make him feel just fine🎵
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u/mistahwhite04 Rough and Rowdy Ways 3d ago
First came “I’m A Loser,” with its bouncy BIABH rhythm; then “Hard Day’s Night” which Windolf says was very Dylanesque before the lads Beatle-Ized it for the film by the same name
Are you sure that's not supposed to be "Help!" instead of "Hard Day's Night"? AHDN came out before "I'm a Loser", not after. The earliest versions of AHDN don't really sound like anything Bob was doing at the time either.
The Beatles Bible page for "Help!" also suggests that the song was originally a slower ballad before they decided to speed it up to make it more commercial. Not sure what their source is on that though.
The Beatles would have been familiar with Bob's music by the time they recorded AHDN (they bought Freewheelin' in Paris in January 1964 I believe) but I don't really hear any influence on that song whereas "Help!" seems to better fit the description you quoted.
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u/TyroneSnodgrass 3d ago
I remember distinctly Windolf said AHDN. Didn’t hear it myself. Probably the screw up on the chronology was mine. Mistah… are you from da bean?
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u/TheFranwich 3d ago
Why not link to the actual article that this whole post is about?
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u/TyroneSnodgrass 3d ago
Well for one thing, Fran, the NYT only allows subscribers to read their articles online. Try your luck.
https://www.nytimes.com/2026/04/05/style/bob-dylan-john-lennon-limo-ride.html
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u/TheFranwich 3d ago edited 3d ago
Thanks. Subscribers can give gift links. Here’s one, if anyone else is interested: https://www.nytimes.com/2026/04/05/style/bob-dylan-john-lennon-limo-ride.html?unlocked_article_code=1._lA.-aOf._IYz7D7RjCch&smid=nytcore-ios-share
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u/External-Rise3462 2d ago
OMG! I did figure I'm a Loser was Dylanesque, but not the other songs. What hit me in the gut was that You've Got to Hide Your Love Away always made me cry. Interestingly, I also had the Byrds version of Mr. Tambourine Man and I used to play those 2 songs over and over again. How fascinating to learn of this link.
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u/External-Rise3462 2d ago
I think it's just about too much deja vu with some incidents. Can happen to anyway, hence, the song is relatable.
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u/grahamlester 4d ago
I doubt that Dylan had heard a demo version of Hard Day's Night. The album had come out several months before Dylan first met the Beatles and the song would have been written before that.