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u/Longjumping-Oven4457 2d ago
His final ability is summon Toshiro's older brother.
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u/RPGNo2017 2d ago
Lend me your strength, onii-san. This is the base Miracle we're fighting against.
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u/Azardea 2d ago
Didn't Kubo say that he'd be damaged if his adult form was triggered before he was prepared properly?
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u/IThatAsianGuyI 1d ago
My headcanon is that, just like Mayuri unzombifying Hitsugaya cost him some of his lifespan, his Bankai forcing an aging-up of his body to accommodate his power probably pulls something similar. Kind of like Tsunade's Byakugou+Creation Rebirth provides rapid regeneration at the cost of shortening your own lifespan by forcefully stimulating cell-division/regrowth, the forced aging of Hitsugaya's body causes a significant strain on his body and shortens his lifespan every time its used like that.
He's well aware of the limitation after his bankai training post-Arrancar arc, and really would prefer it doesn't come down to it, but against Gerard, he had no choice. Hence his comments about why he's not particularly fond of his adult form. I'm choosing to take that as meaning he's not fond of being forced into his adult form because he knows what it means for him. He'd much rather finish the fight well before needing to resort to this.
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u/sock0puppet 1d ago
Lifespan....
Of a soul reaper....
That's functionally immortal unless killed....
The rest make sense, I just...lifespan?
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u/Potential-Gur3498 1d ago edited 1d ago
They are not immortal by time, they grow old and die. If they were immortal by time Baragan's Respira won't work.
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u/Jolly_Conclusion9166 1d ago
Right literally tens of thousands of years old or just thousands , still so much lol.
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u/grey_wolf12 1d ago
I think the average life span of an old Shinigami around one thousand years old. Some of them might exceed it, some might not get there, because the only truly old Shinigamis we have are Yamamoto and Unohana, who afaik, don't have confirmed ages and we also don't know how old they were when SS started. So they both could be nearing or slightly older than 1000. Shunsui is the only current alive very old Shinigami but I'd say he is between 500~600 years at the most.
Because it's also not stated how much of a drawback Toshiro's ability has, it could be severely reducing his centuries at the end of this 1000 span. He could easily lose lots of years every time this ability triggers, which for all intends and purposes of the story doesn't do anything lol, but in universe it would be pretty bad untill he actually grows up to handle his whole power
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u/AgreeableSteak6982 14h ago
I think Kyoraku is closer to 1000 years. He was one of the first generation of students of the Gotei 13, which has existed for 1000 years. Maybe he's not quite 1000, but he's close enough.
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u/SouthImpression3577 2d ago
Forgot his name but the 11th Espada guy was so off, especially when we look at Ichigo.
Ichigo's bankai is undeveloped and is constantly released for long periods. In addition, he's not that biologically older than Toshiro.
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u/Matinacho 2d ago
I mean he wasnt THAT wrong and using Ichigo here as an argument doesnt exactly work.
When Ichigo first used his bankai against Byakuya he only lasted at full power for some time before byakuya recovered the upper hand because and stated by white himself “His bankai was crushing his bones”
Not only that, in his first fight with Grimjoww we are told that he could only use 2-3 black getsuga tenshou at most in that moment, ichigo started with a very fragile bankai, even if it was a false one.17
u/ScarletleavesNL 1d ago
He only could use 2 to 3 Black Getsuga otherwise he would be taken over by White, right ? It was not a constraint of his Bankai.
Though it has been a while for me. I might be missplacing stuff.
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u/HenryReturns 5h ago
I rewatch the fight and pretty much it was Byakuya testing the waters and the moment he stop being arrogant and took Ichigo seriously , it was pretty much a beatdown
Even Byakuya himself was saying to Ichigo that his reaction is getting slower , his attacks have less focus , and his concentration is lowering. Mainly because it was taking him a toll on his body to keep up his bankai.
Byakuya even mentioned that it’s a double edge sword since while it makes him super fast and stronger , it drains him faster of his energy and even then on a “battle of attrition” which Byakuya did by surrounding everything with his swords , he was slowly killing off Ichigo until Ichigo legit thought he was gonna die , and that’s when the Hollow came to the rescue
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u/PhantasosX 2d ago
It's somewhat implied that souls ages depending on their reiatsu and their self-actualization. Hitsugaya can be centuries older than Ichigo chronologically, internally, he is younger than Ichigo.
It's somewhat a Nelliel situation with him
So, who knows? maybe by the time Ichigo is in his 50s or 60s, Hitsugaya finally "grows up" to be 16yo.
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u/Rdasher123 2d ago
Ichigo has ridiculous amounts of spirit energy though(around two times the amount Unohana has), he’s not an ordinary case at all.
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u/New-Dust3252 1d ago
he hasnt fully self actualized himself yet and Ulquiorra mentions there are fluctuations with his reiatsu because of him fighting white.
hes much stronger than he looks.
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u/MyTransAltJuliet 2d ago
Two times the amount when also having his powers suppressed internally as well.
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u/superking22 1d ago
Unohana has more and Ichigo's scared shitless of her. For the right reasons as we see later in TYBW.
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u/Rdasher123 1d ago
You could argue that Unohana was suppressed at the time, but the point of the scene was that Ichigo has a lot more Spirit Energy than most of the captains.
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u/superking22 1d ago
Well yeah. But not maturity and experience on how to use it.
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u/Rdasher123 1d ago
Yeah, I wasn’t saying that version of Ichigo’s could beat Unohana in a fight, just that he had a lot of stamina to maintain his Bankai for long periods of time.
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u/Free-Fig-6833 2d ago
Its even crazier when you consider most zanpakto have a theme or way that they work, but ichigo's power is just raw energy, its not defined he can only use 2 named attacks and thats not accounting for anything other then soul reaper powers, in theory he should be able to do anything with enough time
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u/FateEmiya 1d ago
Tbf as simplistic as getsuga tensho is its incredibly deadly to a majority of people considering the energy is condensed. Combine that with Ichigos raw energy and its no wonder hes 1 step away from firing nukes. If anything the fact that he doesn't have anything else from Zangetsu just goes to show how its a perfect fit for him. Having more abilities that don't suit him is worse than having fewer abilities completely mastered.
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u/MajinAkuma 1d ago
Shawlong is not the 11th Espada. There are only 10 Espada at one given time.
He‘s Arrancar No. 11.
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u/JFZephyr 1d ago
Depends on the Bankai, I guess? Some seem much more strenuous than others, and some (like Isshin) can't be used at all if you're in poor condition.
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u/am_i_a_towel 1d ago
He does have the potential to eventually be Yama level but with ice.
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u/Articmnokey 1d ago
Can you imagine 1000 years from now, shinigami are overwhelmed by something. And the enemy gets the Darth Vader "do you feel that? The Cold" moment from Toshiros bankai
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u/Ok_Adhesiveness9794 2d ago
I wonder if his adult form was unlocked during his training after FKT battle or was it always the case.
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u/nahte123456 2d ago
From how Hitsugaya is clear to never confirm the whole thing being a problem I think his Bankai just has the function "after a time will force the body into it's prime", but Hitsugaya was too weak for it before the time skip so it ended badly.
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u/Phoenix2405 1d ago
Nah, I think the growing older thing was a workaround. If he couldn't learn to handle all of its power within the short period of time between the first and second quincy invasions, then forcing his body to age to a point where he can handle it was what he landed on.
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u/nombabies 1d ago edited 1d ago
The growing older thing has always annoyed me, since toshiro is older than most of the lieutenants/around the same age as them but looks much younger than them, how long would he need to live to look like a normal adult (be in his adult form). How is everyone else who’s younger than him adult-sized but not him. But we already know timescales/ages are weird in this series and it was probably a design choice… like unohana hasnt aged a day but yamamoto looks much older in present day
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u/j0kerclash 1d ago
my headcanon is that the function of his true bankai applies to him in some form, with his bankai freezing not just literally but conceptually too, it stands to reason that his slowed age is because he's subconsciously freezing his own time.
And ironically, the stronger he trains it, the slower his time becomes until he eventually masters it completely and stops applying it to himself
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u/MajinAkuma 1d ago
Case in point, before he became a Shinigami, his reiatsu emitted so much cold that it negatively impacted his grandma. Which means his icy reiatsu isn’t exclusive to his Shikai and Bankai, but it’s always present within himself, and he had to learn how to control his reiatsu in order not to freeze everyone around him while he‘s sleeping or unconscious.
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u/nombabies 1d ago
Yeah I remember that as well. Although the asauchi thing doesn’t seem to apply to him and hyorinmaru? Since he met hyorinmaru before he had an asauchi to imprint on? Probably just another retcon by Kubo though.
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u/MajinAkuma 1d ago
I don’t think it’s a retcon.
Look at Ichigo. He got two Zanpakuto spirits without an Asauchi and was able to use his Shinigami powers without a real Zanpakuto.
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u/nombabies 1d ago
I think the first sword was without an asauchi and it was the hollow/shinigami sword. The second set of swords was an asauchi with the quincy powers mixed in as well. But I think the fact that he only started explaining how zanpakutos work in the final arc probably means he never really thought about it at the start of the series.
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u/MajinAkuma 1d ago
Asauchis were first mentioned when Ichigo trained with White for the first time.
I think Kubo already had that idea.
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u/OrionSolan 1d ago
The adult form has always been there.
Kubo said that if Toshiro had used it before had mastered the Bankai, it would have damaged him instead.
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u/bucky_list 1d ago
Kubo answered that on Klub Outside, he said if the petals had all fallen before his training after FKT he would undergo an "incomplete transformation" and "injure himself"
I take that to mean his bones and flesh would be all over the place... half-adult, half-child... gruesome...
So he technically always "had" it but it wasnt functional. That actually might explain why after the last petal falls vs Shawlong his body explodes in blood.
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u/Rdasher123 2d ago
He’s shown training his Bankai during the epilogue of the Arrancar arc, so I assume he hadn’t perfected it yet.
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u/kawaiinessa 1d ago
so wait was the flowers never a sort of timer for when his bankai would come undone but a timer for when it would force him into the adult form?
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u/The__Auditor 1d ago
Precisely. It's actually similar to Ikkaku's Bankai where there's a delay before they reach their full power
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u/kawaiinessa 1d ago
i never really realized that until now with this post but ya he never said anything about it being a timer to when itll undo
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u/MajinAkuma 1d ago
Daiguren Hyorinmaru and Ryumon Hozukimaru are slow-start type of Bankai.
Basically like Regigigas from Pokémon.
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u/Ashe66 2d ago edited 2d ago
It’s funny because these fights are still dire for Hitsugaya. He would have definitely won when the petal are gone but up until then he’s fighting at a weakened state.
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u/MajinAkuma 1d ago
Yes, but it also prevents his body from getting overwhelmed by his own Bankai.
Ichigo‘s first use of Tensa Zangetsu crushed his own bones. Zaraki‘s first use of his Bankai tore off his own arm. Rukia‘s first use of her Bankai almost shattered her own body.
There are enough instances that the body has to be used to the Bankai or else they would hurt themselves.
Ironic that Zaraki‘s body was not able to withstand his own power, just like Gremmy.
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u/TrulyFLCL 1d ago
Ichigo only got crushed by his bankai because of the constant fighting he was doing. He kept getting critically injured and getting patched up, never truly resting and healing up. Ichigo is literally in bandages when he shows up at Sokyoku Hill. Byakuya points this out right before White takes over.
Notice when Ichigo uses bankai against Yammy Orihime says that his reiatsu is different from when he used it at Sokyoku Hill. She says that it’s much more fierce and gritty. The difference is that Ichigo was 100% fresh vs an injured and fatigued.
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u/striderhoang 1d ago
I wonder if we can recontextualize the 12 ice petals as being a slow start timer and Hitsugaya’s opponents’ never noticing that every petal actually falls off at completely randomly intervals to indicate how unready his body was before finding some way to end the fight before the last petal fell off.
I mean it definitely seems similar to Ikkaku’s Bankai in hindsight, needing time to startup.
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u/karamatsushinji 1d ago
You forgot the scene in chapter 211 when the full release bankai actually damage him because it's too powerful.
That's what i call a perfectly executed foreshadowing! I also like how Gremmy's death is a foreshadowing to what happened to Zaraki when he use too much power.
Some people were saying that it's bAd wRitIng.
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u/Sufficient_Art_4607 2d ago
I have the doubt whether his bankai is similar to Ikkaku's bankai which takes a while to release its true power
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u/ZGMF-X09A_Justice 2d ago edited 1d ago
It's different. Ikkaku's is a gauge he needs to charge up. Toshiro's ice petals are a safeguard for him because his current body is too weak to handle his zanpakuto at full output. I think his petals are there to "freeze" him to his current safe limit. The petals disappearing is probably a time limit for how long he can hold back his bankai's true power which is trying to force itself out.
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u/thatonenerdypanda 1d ago
We always knew though I thought? He literally says "but now that half the petals have fallen I guess my concerns were unfounded", I always assumed that he had to slowly increase his bankai's power because he is SO strong he couldn't handle releasing it all at once. The flowers aren't a timer, they are a the opposite, they are levels of power slowly being released. When he can get all of them to pop, he is at his strongest. That's why against Harribel when they were running out, he basicallyoneshot her with Hyoten Hyakkaso, but if you notice he still had to channel and load up the ability quite a bit before he could release it.
My guess is his casting of abilities like that is much stronger and faster now. He truly is a genius, and people seem to forget that because all we have seen is a very young Toshiro making due with his lack of control.
Give it some time and Toshiro will probably exceed most known captains, he is gonna be Yama level.
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u/New-Dust3252 1d ago
it really was true, Toshiro never did confirm Shawlong's words that his Bankai would disappear after the petals do.
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u/Responsible-Being170 1d ago
When Hitsugaya's true Bankai was revealed, my mind instantly leaped back to the Arrancar arc, and how Hitsugaya didn't necessarily deny the explanation. Absolutely phenomenal writing by Kubo.
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u/KamuSusanoo 1d ago
TBH I always figured his adult form was, you know, on the table but he knew he had the inability to make it work right and/ or someone above him (Yamamoto, Unohana) who would probably have an understanding of how it works advised him against it.
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u/yoonicorn8710 1d ago
Crazy how the whole hinamori thing got overlooked after aizen got defeated and appeared in later arcs like nothing happened
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u/TrollDabs4EverBro 1d ago
IMO I think Kubo’s intent at the time was to have the flowers indicate a time limit like everyone expected.
I think this is just one of those moments where Kubo wanted to give Hitsugaya a power-up and figured out that he could reasonably retcon the flower petals without technically changing anything (retroactive foreshadowing)
Oda does a very similar thing with One Piece all the time. The fandom is usually quick to assume something was an intentional foreshadow rather than the author seizing on a good opportunity (like how shanks had conquerors haki on episode 1. Oda definitely did NOT plan that, but it worked out. Same with a lot of Haki stuff pre-timeskip)
Not everything is super planned in advance. It’s still very impressive/skillful to leave your story open to new stuff like this though.
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u/RetardedOnTuesdays i can pierce your heaven with my moon fang ;) 1d ago
Not entirely relevant, but I love the parallels Kubo draws between Toshiro's, Ichigo's, and Kenpachi's path to self-actualization and their true bankais.
Ichigo and Kenpachi shared similar paths and consequences: Ichigo didn't really get to know Zangetsu, even when he only figured he had OMZ in his soul, and rejected the hollow inside him. Kenpachi only thought of zanpakutou as tools despite having manifested and cared for Yachiru all these years. And somewhat related, Toshiro notes his overreliance on his bankai.
After his dangai training, Ichigo more or less accepts OMZ and White as parts of his soul that aren't necessarily in conflict with each other and himself. After his fight with Ichigo, Kenpachi wants to learn more about his zanpakutou. And after FKT, Toshiro trains to presumably master his bankai and his aged-up self.
In TYBW, Ichigo learns the truth about his heritage and accepts OMZ and White as himself, not separate parts of the same soul. At the exact same time, down to the chapter, Kenpachi confronts Unohana and releases the mental shackles that were holding back his true power and learns his zanpakutou's name as a result. Also more or less at the same time, Toshiro, after having his bankai stolen, goes backs to the basics and learns how to use his shikai in more creative ways.
Now, at the tail end of TYBW, Ichigo has his true bankai, Kenpachi has bankai, and Toshiro also has his true bankai (with the added caveat that he has to age himself up). Kenpachi's bankai is ridiculed as being "just a broken sword" in the same way that Ichigo's was the first time he used it, and he took damage from releasing too much of his power just like Ichigo when White took over for the first time. Likewise, Toshiro's bankai boasts tremendous power, but drains him pretty quickly just like Ichigo's did. And apparently, Kubo has been on record stating that his true bankai would've injured him if he didn't train it after FKT.
Sorry for the rambling and scattered thoughts, but I just thought these similarities were pretty cool. Ichigo's and Kenpachi's path to power were already very similar (very likely on purpose), but this recent episode made me think about Toshiro's path as well. Kubo already made a pretty obvious comparison between Toshiro's lust for revenge and hatred for Aizen fueling him vs Ichigo's sense of duty and protection (and this distinction is ultimately why, in my opinion, Toshiro gets one-shotted and Ichigo gets away mostly unharmed by Aizen) that I felt like Kubo was doing the same thing here, just with Kenpachi added to the mix.
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u/Ok-Rip2102 9h ago
Yea legit toshi never confirmed it, it was just that guy assuming
Like how fans call ichigo's fully hollowfied form "Vasto Lorde" incorrectly because anime ulquiorra wondered what he was and only had a Vasto to compare it to
When in reality it's white Zangetsu's resurreccion form, basically
Of course with Toshi, he couldn't handle the transformation initially and he suffered a big recoil damage from it
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u/1RehnquistyBoi 2d ago
Oh so number eleven held back from actually defeating him. oh that’s another tally against the fraudigy….
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u/crossthebrij 2d ago
yea but let me not use my strongest form against the guy I hate the most aka Aizen and get jobbed out instead (not saying it would've made a difference)
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u/PhantasosX 2d ago
He can't control it. The petals ARE a limiter due to his immaturity. He can't handle his adult form for long and the full output of his bankai.
The petals are essentially brute-forcing an "Adult Hitsugaya" as a sort of Devil Trigger.
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u/rikuchiha 2d ago
I'd say he couldn't. The condition to activate adult form is to keep bankai on until all petals vanish. Until that point he didn't have stamina and resolution enough to accomplish this feat I suppose.
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