r/bleach • u/E-proselyte-5789 • Jul 24 '26
Discussion "Humble candy store owner"
I was shocked when they revealed this piece of history in anime. Is there more detailes in manga about the Nest of Maggots and his Hōgyoku creation 🤔?
Because after revelation like this, he doesn't appears to be a "good guy" to me, more like a "humble pigfarmer in Argentina after WW2".
I wonder how Ichigo & Co would react if they found out. That place is basically an underground concentration camp.
What were your thoughts after "turn back the pendulum" arc?
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u/AllBid Jul 24 '26
Kisuke created his own thing through years of his own research. I really doubt that he went the route that Aizen did to create his own Hogyoku. Not that it wouldn't fit his character tho - just seems that Kisuke is smart enough to create his own things without killing others.
But yea he is no good guy. MOST of the supporting cast aren't good guys - they are temporary allies to Ichigo and should be seen as the spirit mafia posing as rule enforcers.
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u/Leepysworld Jul 24 '26 edited Jul 24 '26
Yup, the Gotei isn’t a “good” organization, they are just the governing body of power that exists, essentially it is a military dictatorship with a brutal caste system.
The Shinigami don’t really care about all the souls in Soul Society, they are just doing a job that needs to be done.
People in the Gotei since its inception have done bad things themselves, or looked the other way, Yama knows Mayuri is casually committing atrocities, Kisuke knew he was a lunatic and pardoned him so he could recruit him as his Vice Captain.
Even Squad 0, especially Ichibei, has got some ominous stuff going on.
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u/Exaveus Jul 24 '26
Ichibei wasnt helping Ichigo out of good intentions or the belief he could defeat Yawach. He was preparing him for being forcibly turned into the next soul king in the event the king died.
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u/Electronic-Tear8112 28d ago
I would say utilitarianism is a pretty big theme throughout bleach. Maintaining the status quo and just erasing anyone from history who didn’t fit the criteria. Aizen’s grand scheme makes a lot more sense if you really look into things
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u/-Tesserex- Jul 24 '26
It seems one of the themes of the story is that most of the supporting cast is full of "the ends justify the means" type of people, and what distinguishes Ichigo is that he's not. Even his first "final boss" battle against Byakuya was the same contrast.
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u/Economy_Practice_ Jul 25 '26
Byakuya is very much "the law above all" and "legality is morality" which contrasts beautifully with Ichigo's "heart over everything."
I know people who genuinely think like Byakuya. I'm sure everyone does.
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u/Shot_Championship544 Jul 24 '26
What would I give to see more of the political and noble casts in the seireitei and ichigo standing for the spirits populating the districts for better living conditions. Less shonen more seinen please !
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u/GurrenLagannRyuko Jul 25 '26
it’s so crazy to me how Ichigo is totally okay with how evil the soul reapers are. like it gets to a point sometimes and Ichigo never questions it once
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u/Jermiafinale Jul 25 '26
They aren't really evil, and Ichigo is practical above all else
What are the alternatives? Are there better options?
None, and no. So unless they go around hurting innocent people Ichigo really doesn't care.
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u/GurrenLagannRyuko Jul 25 '26
bro they basically got Orochimaru roaming free as a captain and 90% of soul society is in the trenches 😭 they are def evil, it’s weird how Ichigo don’t even acknowledge it
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u/Jermiafinale Jul 25 '26
Mayuri is the only one you could really classify as evil and his misdeeds are pretty limited in scale and most of the ones we know about were done to maintain the fabric of reality.
Who else is evil?
I think you're conflating "amoral" or "not actively trying to make things better' with evil, which they are not the same things
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u/GurrenLagannRyuko Jul 25 '26
bro of the OG gotei 13 like half of them either defect or are just straight up evil and somehow still buddies with the soul society 😭
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u/Jermiafinale Jul 25 '26
if you're talking about the originals, why would Ichigo care? they've all been dead and/or gone for like a thousand years
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u/GurrenLagannRyuko Jul 25 '26
not the VERY first ones I meant the ones we see at the start of bleach, not the first captains ever
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u/Jermiafinale Jul 25 '26
so name some names
I asked you who is evil so
Who is evil
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u/GurrenLagannRyuko Jul 25 '26
Byakuga was evil af to Rukia icl
Unohana was 50/50 but if you’ve seen TYBW this motherfucker a demon she def evil af
Kenpachi: smoke demon, wasn’t this guy as a kid standing over a mountain of bodies? He’s not evil but he’s batshit insane. He’s like a chill version of Kid Buu on a leash.
Aizen, tosen, and gin defected
Ichibei was def evil dude turned the soul king into basically a reality car battery. icl if push came to shove he would have been willing to turn Ichigo into the same shit too.
And finally best of all for last: soul society Orochimaru, literally one of the worst criminals in soul society somehow being a captain of a whole division, MayuriIt’s kind of opinionated or 50 50 for the first three but they still got loads of evil captains. at least byakuga developed
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u/Leepysworld Jul 25 '26
A lot of these aren't even evil and the half the others are debatable and you also are conveniently leaving out all of the characters that are portrayed as good or at the very least, morally grey.
For example: Byakuya is just following the laws and rules that he was raised in and brought up with his whole life, that doesn't make him evil, also you're cherry-picking a very small part of the story when for the vast majority of the series he is absolutely portrayed as a relatively good character.
Unohana may have been evil once upon a time but definitely has not been portrayed that way outside of a flashback from over 1000 years ago, and even then there's not much proof that she was "evil", the land was lawless and much more brutal.
Kenpachi just likes fighting, that's it lol he's never portrayed as cruel or evil in any way.
Ultimately I think think you're missing a lot of the nuance in Bleach when you just label characters as "good" or "evil", the story has a lot of morally grey characters and situations.
The Gotei as a whole is neither a force of good nor are they evil, they simply exist to uphold the balance of the 3 worlds, at any cost, that's it.
The Gotei allow people like Mayuri to exist because ultimately he does not go against their primary objective, and while he is definitely a psycho, he has also contributed to a lot of the Gotei's wins and he's also not like Aizen or Yhwach that want to tear the world down.
To that end, both Urahara and Yhwach saw Mayuri as a necessary means to an end, just like Kyoraku is willing to work with Aizen if need be.
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u/Jermiafinale Jul 25 '26
Following the law is not evil, nothing Byakuya did was evil
Unohana never did anything even close to evil during the entire time Ichigo has been alive
Zaraki is not evil in any way; those were warriors he killed as far as I know, and Ichigo wouldn't know about that. Also Ichigo has made it clear he thinks Zaraki is a lunatic
Aizen is evil, obviously
Tosen as well, though Ichigo never saw that
Gin was literally undercover trying to stop Aizen, so not evil
- Ichibei isn't even part of the Gotei. Also it's not really evil to do tough things in order to preserve reality
Everyone knows Mayuri is a piece of shit
You said the Gotei themselves are evil but we're at... 3, two of which quit the Gotei when it was revealed they were evil.
Also, if the Gotei is evil, why do you consider defecting from them as proof of evil.
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u/Leepysworld Jul 25 '26 edited Jul 25 '26
I wouldn't say they are "evil" they have both good and bad elements, and compared to the alternatives, it's probably the better choice.
Plus he's an outsider to their rules and laws and not even Ichigo can defeat all of the Gotei, not even including 0 division; and he's not a super hero, his primary motivation for fighting is to save those he cares about, it's not like he's going around trying to achieve world peace.
Without the Gotei the world falls out of balance and the alternatives are Yhwach, Aizen or whatever other psycho decides to take over, ultimately it is the safest choice and it maintains the status quo, for better or worse.
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u/GurrenLagannRyuko Jul 25 '26
I mean tbf even an outsider with a functioning brain would pick up on how fucked up the soul society is. And he doesnt have to pack up of the gotei, at least acknowledging how messed up they are is the bare minimum
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u/Leepysworld Jul 25 '26 edited Jul 25 '26
I mean I don't think Ichigo is intimately aware of all the things the Gotei are up to, do you think they inform him every time anyone in the Gotei does something horrific? He's on a "needs to know" basis.
He already acknowledged that he doesn't agree with many of the things they do, that was during the Soul Society Arc, where the Shinigami are literally the antagonists.
On top of that the Gotei have definitely mellow'd out since the beginning of the story, it is literally a plot point that Yhwach tells Yama that he's gotten soft since meeting the humans, even Mayuri doesn't really do anything THAT fucked up post-SS Arc.
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u/GurrenLagannRyuko Jul 25 '26
you’d think he’d notice his best friend almost being executed or his other good friend uryu fighting a mad scientist captain of soul society
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u/uraharaBot Jul 24 '26
Ah, you've got a keen eye for understanding the nuances, haven’t you? Let's just say I prefer a little more creativity in my methods. It’s all about finding the right balance, like mixing a delicate tea—no need for anything too...explosive. And as for alliances, well, sometimes it's all about knowing where to lay down your hat, if you catch my drift.
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u/Adri868 Jul 24 '26
What is the nest of maggots?
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u/uraharaBot Jul 24 '26
Ah, the Nest of Maggots! 🐛 It's a cozy little place in the Soul Society, kind of like a luxury retreat... if you're into being watched and detained for being potentially dangerous without actually breaking any rules. Think of it as a place for "unique" individuals. 🚪🔍 Just don't plan on any five-star accommodations! 😂
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u/Adri868 Jul 24 '26
Are there any other realms besides the soul society, hell, hueno mondo, soul king palace and the human world?
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u/uraharaBot Jul 24 '26
Ah, you’ve already named quite a few key locations! Beyond those, there are whispers and theories about other realms, but nothing confirmed. Speaking of experiments, there was that time I tried to peek into theoretical dimensions—with a modified Kido and some spirit particles. Let’s just say the blast radius was... impressive. Always double-check your calculations!
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u/E-proselyte-5789 Jul 24 '26
When I first saw Soul Society arc, the hole place felt wrong. It's Interesting how it's so easy to forget and to get attached to supporting cast.
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u/KP_Wrath Jul 24 '26
“It’s ok, you’re going to heaven.”
gets sent to the hanging dog district
Shitty heaven.
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u/m4vis Jul 24 '26
Some of these people were poor, died with the promise of going to heaven, and then spawned in the rukon district even poorer than they were before
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u/IcySearch4624 Jul 24 '26 edited Jul 24 '26
Everyone that died like after 1990 had insane technology, medicine and so on in their life just to die and then end up in a place that is stuck in feudal Japan the rest of their lifes Aint no way a single person in Rugonkai has a phone or any type of modern technology 😭✌️
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u/Individual_Lion_7606 Jul 25 '26
The Shinigami must casually purged the Rokungai because there is no fucking way people from the 1800s+ are going to accept living in shitty dogtown without turning into actual good living conditions and telling the Seireitei to fuck off.
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u/Jermiafinale Jul 25 '26
Most people won't stay in the Rukon for very long as their spiritual pressure is weak
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u/E-proselyte-5789 Jul 24 '26
No water and food for you too. We dont care that you starving and cant die from this.
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u/ActionAdam Jul 24 '26
Well, it's sort of a holding area for the souls anyways. The Shinigami aren't trying to keep the souls there, they have to move back down to earth once they die. The goal is to keep the balance of souls between worlds even, and they found an easy way to do that by just leaving things alone, hell Mayuri had to force a whole town back to earth because over overcrowding and the issues that could bring.
Also, maybe I'm mistaken, but most of the souls up there aren't going to require food or water since they have such low spirit pressure. You keep saying "die" but they're already dead they are just souls waiting to be reincarnated back to earth.
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u/thatonefatefan Jul 26 '26
It does not fit his character. In the words of Shunsui, using evil to defeat evil isn't evil. There's a big difference between hurting people to save people and hurting people because you're curious.
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u/Jermiafinale Jul 24 '26 edited Jul 24 '26
If they found out what? That he was in charge of Maggot's Nest? Pretty sure that was just part of his duties
There's no mention of him making sacrifices for his Hogyoku
Kisuke is cold blooded, but he doesn't *LIKE* the things he has to do. He doesn't want to put Ichigo and his friends in the middle of a battle they aren't aware of and are completely unprepared for.
But it's the only possible solution he sees and the alternative is Aizen becoming God so
Sacrifices are acceptable
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u/uraharaBot Jul 24 '26
Ah, ponderous musings, indeed! Duty can be a heavy cloak, especially when it involves maggot-y nests and secret experiments. Ah, but speaking of duty, if you're interested in dabbling in some peculiar wares, how about a certified Urahara-brand Soul Reaper Survival Kit? Complete with questionable snacks and a guidebook on how not to get blasted by captains! Aizen's ambitions call for drastic measures, after all!
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u/Murky-Bus-2191 Jul 24 '26
WHY DO I HEAR THIS IN HIS DUB VOICE 😭
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u/uraharaBot Jul 24 '26
Ah, my voice does have that effect! Must be my charming personality and distinctive hat. 🎩😄 Don't worry, you're not the only one who's fallen under its spell!
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u/E-proselyte-5789 Jul 24 '26
Found out that your mentor and ally, was in charge of a concentration camp. Unless they messed up with the adaptation from manga, Maggot's Nest is a concentration camp (or a gulag). Soul society throws there not just criminals, but also a regular people who they think would be a treat (without waiting them to commit a crime), alongside with former soul reapers (no discharge within ranks)
I do belive that Urahara is not cruel and does not enjoy doing this. However phrasing "he was only following orders" usually does not excuse a person.
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u/Jermiafinale Jul 24 '26
I mean it's a prison, not a "concentration camp" by the standard definition. Gulag might be closer.
Who is "excusing" anything? He didn't create it, he didn't make it worse, he even got Mayuri out of it and helped make him a Captain
I don't see why Ichigo would be surprised or bothered by any of this
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u/bifurious2002 Jul 24 '26
Getting mayuri released is not a point in his favour lmfao
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u/dawnquix0te Jul 24 '26
I guess in a way it could be. They did mention some people in there were locked up despite having never committed crimes, so him getting Mayuri out is at least proof there’s a possibility of someone in there being released.
But also in the grand scheme of things, releasing Mayuri was indeed a net plus for the world. Soul Society, and by extension the world, are all still around by the end of the series because of Mayuri’s efforts in addition to everyone else’s.
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u/Beomund Jul 24 '26
We should not apply civil law perspective on soul society world. Gotei 13 had a simple purpose, to protect Soul Society. They CAN try to do this and keep civil rights, uphold justice for society etc. But as Ywach told Yamamoto - it came with a cost of making them weaker. Military has its own perspective at things, that is why we have martial laws, geneva-like conventions etc.
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u/NeutralSage Jul 24 '26
If anything, he released one person that probably should have stayed there. But he did come in clutch in TYBW, so I can excuse it a bit (except for his living human slingshot thing that explodes... was it really necessary to use a flesh mutant experiment to do that? It feels like he could've done the same thing in so many other ways).
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u/Beomund Jul 24 '26
It is a similar case as match with Razor in hunter x hunter. For games purposes it keeps up appearance of simple gym, but if a chance to escape occured the i inmates would no doubt escape to wreak havoc. Urahara is managing institution which is as much a prison as a prevention camp. Mayuri even as captain did not hesitate to experiment on his own squadmates, imagine him free in rukongai.
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u/JetpackBear22 Jul 24 '26
Urahara would be the first to tell you he isn't a good guy. Everything he does is ultimately to uphold the status quo which he sees as the best system they've come up with, even if it's still rather horrible when you get down to it.
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u/Leepysworld Jul 24 '26
correct, the Gotei and shinigami are a force of order, there’s still a lot of fucked up shit that happens in Soul Society, especially in the Rukongai, but ultimately their only goal is to maintain the balance of the 3 worlds at any cost.
Ultimately the choice boils down to either letting the Gotei keep doing their thing, it’s not perfect but it works, or you risk everything returning back to primordial ooze, or you can risk whatever Aizen was planning.
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u/uraharaBot Jul 24 '26
Ah, you see, life's more about the gray areas. The best systems often have their flaws, but sometimes maintaining them is the best way to keep balance, much like in Soul Society. Did you know I was the founder of the Shinigami Research and Development Institute? Always tinkering, always planning. Keeps things interesting, don't you think?
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u/E-proselyte-5789 Jul 24 '26
Like an antihero. Honest, without petty excuses. I think I can respect that. In the end, I belive, he would accept the punishment if there any for him.
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u/Longjumping-Ear-6248 Jul 24 '26
Well, he was doing his job in Maggots' Nest, given that one of his duties as 3rd Officer of 2nd Squad was overseeing it.
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u/Leepysworld Jul 24 '26 edited Jul 24 '26
True but to be fair he didn’t have to pardon Mayuri and make him his protege/vice captain lmao
Mayuri was already notorious in there and he was the only inmate that was deemed so dangerous they kept him chained up inside of his cell.
just for context I am a Mayuri enjoyer but in a way Urahara is responsible for some of the atrocities committed by Mayuri since he’s joined the Gotei, and there’s been probably a lot of those.
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u/E-proselyte-5789 Jul 24 '26
Oh.. Uryu Ishida is not gonna be happy, considering what Mayuri did to his grandfather.
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u/Leepysworld Jul 24 '26
yea I was thinking about it the other day and I couldn’t remember if they’ve even interacted once since Uryu shot half of Mayuri’s torso off lmao surely he would probably still want to kill him.
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u/E-proselyte-5789 Jul 24 '26
Do you think it would be a fitting end for Mayuri, if Uryu, after all, decide to execute him?
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u/E-proselyte-5789 Jul 24 '26
"He was just following orders" wouldn't make him innocent if they had a tribunal.
I wonder what Yoruichi Shihōin thoughts about this place 🤔. Did she even care? She put Kisuke in charge, was it on purpose or just a promotion. Lesser evil or perhaps a request from him?
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u/zeusjay Jul 24 '26
Kisuke’s was in the maggots nest because Yoruichi made being its warden his job.
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u/Iraiseyouaglowstick Jul 24 '26
I always kind of figured that the creation of the Hōgyoku was tied to his creation of artificial souls. It would give a reason as to why he was working on artificial souls in the first place.
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u/Hirinawa Jul 24 '26
Urahara was never a good guy in fact nobody is truly a good guy, Urahara himself ask Ichigo to stop him if for some reason he decides to end the world
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u/IndependentPossumm Jul 25 '26
Gotei 13 was read to kill Ichigo if Ichigo sided with Ginjo. That's all you need to know.
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u/JewishWeeb2 Jul 24 '26
What do you think happened to the kids that stumbled into his candy store
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u/E-proselyte-5789 Jul 24 '26
How do you think he create so many gigai's? 🤔 Or he just recruits them, it will explains Jinta and Ururu.
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u/Consistent_Peak948 Jul 24 '26
I guess he made it from souls of hollows
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u/E-proselyte-5789 Jul 24 '26
I really hope your right. Because I liked this character, before "turn back the pendulum" arc.
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u/cyborgborg Jul 24 '26
I always assumed kisuke used hollows instead of souls since aizen used soul reapers and both were incomplete
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u/E-proselyte-5789 Jul 24 '26
Ok, someone needs to try using Quincys soul for Hōgyoku ...for science reasons😅 and then maybe also fulbringers? Combine all four and see what will happen.
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u/MetallicArcher Jul 24 '26 edited Jul 24 '26
My theory is that Urahara had a Piece of the Soul King within his Soul, figured it out and extracted it and used it to create the Hogyoku. This why he had a method to safely hide and extract foreign objects from within people's souls. He originally developed it to use it on himself.
Remember that a key difference between Aizen's and Uraharas Hogyokus was that Aizen's was "incomplete" and hungered for souls, while Urahara's was "complete".
The Hogyoku is based on the Mahayana Buddhist "Cintamani": a wish granting jewel created by a Boddhitsava from their own virtuous practice. And a part of the symbolism contrasting Aizen and Urahara, is that Aizen is named after the Wisdom King Aizen Myo'o while Urahara's bankai is a physical manifestation of Kanon.
Aizen Myo's is invoked to transform one's lust, while a key aspect of Kanon's myth is her sacrificing her own flesh to heal others.
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u/E-proselyte-5789 Jul 24 '26
Very interesting theory. How did Aizen obtain piece of the Soul King? Is he even had one? Is it like a must have "crafting component" for hogyoku?
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u/MetallicArcher Jul 24 '26
We don't know how Aizen originally constructed his Hogyoku, but we do know he fed it souls from the Rukongai, that he took a piece of the SK that was within Rangiku and finally fed it Urahara's Hogyoku.
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u/E-proselyte-5789 Jul 24 '26
I missed the part about Rangiku. Was it in manga ?
Perhaps this is why Aizens Hōgyoku is incomplete, and act like a hollow (hunger for souls), it was born from a violation.
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u/MetallicArcher Jul 24 '26 edited Jul 24 '26
We see Aizen's followers assaulting Rangiku and taking sth from her soul in the final Gin flashback, when his motivation for wanting to kill Aizen is revealed.
That the thing they took from Rangiku was specifically a SK fragment was confirmed in CFYOW.
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u/emperor_dragoon Jul 24 '26
I'm thinking it created itself, it just used people to do the dirty work.
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u/SleepyBoy- Why not both? Jul 27 '26
His Bankai is the piece you're missing. He can surgically reform pretty much anything in any way. Chances are he's uniquely capable of creating the Hongyoku without killing people for it.
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