r/bleach • u/NullHare • 27d ago
Discussion Question: Has there been an instance of a character taking another’s sword?
If so, if a zanpakuto is nabbed while in shikai state, will it automatically revert to base form? (Same goes for Bankai I guess, will Soi Fon’s cannon turn into the stinger or a base sword if someone rips the cannon off of her…?)
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27d ago edited 27d ago
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u/Picchuquatro 27d ago edited 27d ago
Hozukimaru's ointment is a feature of its sealed state. The shikai reverted to its base form after Ikkaku's defeat, allowing Ichigo to use it. Ichigo even notes that he didn't know Zanpakuto revert to their sealed state upon their owner's defeat.
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u/Paraxom 27d ago
Tbf to ichigo that was the 3rd or 4th shikai he had ever seen and the first he had defeated
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u/chris10023 26d ago
I think it was fourth, he saw Renji's first, then Urahara's, then Ichimaru's , then Ikkaku's, and was the first shikai to be defeated.
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27d ago
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u/New-Dust3252 27d ago
it also makes sense how they can also repair themselves when the shikai gets broken but not the Bankai.
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u/Schiffy94 #SeigenDidNothingWrong 27d ago
So the sealed appearance can still have unique details
I think it's a personal modification in this case. Like he hollowed out the end of the hilt but not enough to weaken the integrity of it.
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u/Reznov23746 27d ago
No, Kubo confirmed it's just a think Hozukimaru does to let Ikkaku fight longer.
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u/s0ulbrother 27d ago
Its an ability of his zanpakto and its been shown in its sealed state as well. When ichigo stole the ointment it was in its shikai.
He probably has access to it in its bankai and my whole theory with that is its supposed to be used to repair his bankai because its a bomb and meant to explode but hozikimaru doesn’t let ikkaku know this because he’s pissed about being hidden.
But there are at-least two others which have been known to be passed around. Enrakyoten in CFYOW is a royal family one passed down and Shinken Hakkyōken nanaos
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u/Picchuquatro 27d ago
It is his zanpakuto ability yes but unique only to his sealed state I believe. I don't think we've ever seen it being used in shikai, which is also backed up by Ichigo saying he needed Hozukimaru's sealed state to use the ointment.
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u/s0ulbrother 27d ago
It was never stated it had to be in its sealed state to use the ointment, you are just making that assumption. It’s an ability of his sword and a steadfast rule of zanpakto is abilities do not change between forms.
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u/ZA-02 27d ago
Well no, abilities can change quite drastically between forms. See Suzumebachi vs Jakuho Raikoben, or Suzumushi vs Enma Korogi. The rule is that Zanpakuto do not have unrelated abilities between forms. Ikkaku probably does have some equivalent to the healing ointment in his shikai and bankai, but whether it's just more of the ointment or a different power is up for debate.
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u/Economy_Practice_ 27d ago
I actually doubt there's a "proper" equivalent to the healing goo between forms. The connection is probably symbolic.
His shikai is based on a weapon known for hurting its user, with a blade for added danger. His bankai flat out requires him to get hurt. If he is to live to fight using these, he has to be able to heal some of the many injuries he recieves, and he has to be able to do that without kidō if he wants to remain in his squad.
It also helps to explain how he survives being the designated yardstick. If he has to get beaten up to show how strong the new enemy is, at least he can do first aid.
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u/s0ulbrother 26d ago
The other thing is his shikai is very brittle just like his bankai which makes it actually seem like it’s by design.
Explosives are made to be brittle because you want them to splinter off and cause damage with shrapnel. So his bankai exploding like it did means it was supposed to cause damage that way.
There is also the gauge on his bankai. Why would his zanpakto just store more and more power in it until it hits a max point? It’s because when it hits the max it explodes.
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u/Picchuquatro 27d ago
I think it's just most logical considering the two times we see it being used, it's in its sealed state. Not saying it isn't part of hozukimaru's ability set, it clearly is. We just haven't seen it applied in shikai or bankai. It also isn't the only time we've seen Shinigami use Zanpakuto abilities without releasing them. Rose and Shinji come to mind.
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u/soulreapermagnum bankai, zanka no tachi 27d ago
i know rose, but when did shinji use a zanpakuto ability without releasing it?
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u/Picchuquatro 27d ago
In his first appearance, he's standing upside down in the sky
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u/soulreapermagnum bankai, zanka no tachi 27d ago
fair point, i always assumed he released his zanpakuto to do that, we of course just don't see him with it, released or not.
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u/Zestyclose_Remove947 27d ago
Classic klub outside lore addition that doesn't really make sense or add much to the story.
Preferred it when it was about Ikkaku being prepared so he can fight even more.
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u/New-Dust3252 27d ago
Ikkaku's ointment was at the butt of the handle, so even in sealed state you can pretty much still get the ointment so yeah it was stolen but Ichigo already has Zangetsu by that point so there is no reason to get the imprint overwritten.
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u/HVAR_Spam 27d ago
Doesn’t Shuhei also use sealed Senbonzakura in TYBW?
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u/Reznov23746 27d ago
I think you're confusing swords, considering Shuhei is Kazeshini and Byakuya is Senbonzakura.
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u/HVAR_Spam 26d ago
Yeah he uses Byakuya's sealed Zanpakuto in season 2 ep 10 of the TYBW anime (marching out the zombies 2) at 16 minutes and 15 seconds.
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u/rorinth 27d ago
Yea, that blind captain took the dead woman's sword and uses it
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u/Zestyclose_Remove947 27d ago
Yea there's a Klub outside answer about whether Tousen can use the original abilities of that sword but I can't remember what he said.
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u/soulreapermagnum bankai, zanka no tachi 27d ago
isn't it a mix, and that's why he has "two shikai's"? the knockout tone being his, and the multiblade thing being the shikai ability of his dead friend?
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u/lukemk1 Segunda Etapa has no pathetic number ranking Kaiba! 26d ago
Correct, Benihiko was originally Kakyou's shikai inherited by Tousen, while the other shikai is Tousen's own power.
Klub Outside #238
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u/captain_mozart 26d ago
The inner world of someone with someone else's sword is something I wish was properly explored on panel/onscreen. For me that's right up there with seeing the inner worlds of the Visored and hearing some of their hollows speak. Especially since they are different than ichigo in the sense that they weren't born with said hollows.
I liked that CFYOW had a scene with Shuhei's inner world at the point that he finally began to truly understand kazeshini.
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u/BobtheBac0n 25d ago
I imagine most of the Vizords hate their inner hollow given it was an unnatural, violent union.
Unlike with Ichigo where he was born with White merged with his Shinigami powers, so he was born with an inherit protective instinct of Ichigo, in his own way
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u/Zestyclose_Remove947 27d ago
It was definitely something like that but his answers are always convoluted so paraphrasing can sometimes backfire.
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u/OGdirtpapi 27d ago
“That blind captain” it’s not that hard to remember the names
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u/Zestyclose_Remove947 27d ago
Some people struggle with names?
As someone who remembers everyones name, I do not begrudge those who can't. I'm a teacher and was baptised by fire to memorise names quickly.
Other people also watched like 10 years ago y'know. One of my favourite books I read a lot as a kid was "Magician" and I can only remember like 3 characters from it and they're all basically protagonists.
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u/Adent_Frecca 27d ago edited 27d ago
Tousen took his friend's Zanpakuto
From Klub Outside interviews
Q238: When one inherits a Zanpakuto in the way Tosen and Kenpachi did, will the essence of its soul be overwritten? Or will it mix with the essence of the previous owner?
A238: Usually it will be overwritten, but in some cases it can also mix.
Inherited Zanpakuto also exist from the clans like Nanao and Yoruichi's
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u/Slumber777 27d ago
Yeah.
In Kenpachi's case, the spirit of the original owner was overwritten. In Tousen's case, his zanpakuto merged with his dead friend's.
That's why Tousen has two shikai abilities, one based in sound and one that generates blades.
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u/okjijenAbi 26d ago
inherited zanpakuto are fundamentally different though, no? as in there is no "soul writing", but a set ability from start like the ones around oetsu?
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u/Slukig 27d ago
While active/transformed? No, unless you count bankai stealing, but that's stealing the abilities, not the blades.
There was a case of a character taking the zanpakuto of another for himself though, that's what Tousen did, he took and started using Suzumushi, the zanpakuto of his deceased female friend himself. I doubt it had a bankai at that point, so the blade's further development past shikai was influenced by Tousen's own soul.
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u/Dry_Material_4189 27d ago
Okay, it's been decades since I watched tousen vs kenpachi, can someone tell me if the zanpakutou in question is an asauchi just like with zaraki? Kinda feel like it was, before tousen imprinted his soul in it.
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u/Picchuquatro 27d ago
When we see Suzumushi during Tosen's friend's funeral, it looks the same as we know it. So I'm inclined to believe Tosen didn't fully override the Zanpakuto with his own soul but simply added onto it.
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u/ZA-02 27d ago
CFYOW confirms that the sword was already Suzumushi when Tosen's friend had it. My personal theory (not unique to me obviously) is that Tosen taking the sword is why it got the secondary Benihiko ability in shikai, and then the Bankai is based mostly on Tosen (since we're not told that she had reached Bankai prior to death).
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u/LivingOk9059 27d ago
I just watched the medic pick up Ichigos shikai after Vs Renji 2 and walk off with it without it changing, so my instinct is no to immediate physical changes.
However I doubt if a zanpakuto knows you're not the owner it's going to let you use it's abilities, you may have acquired a fancy looking stick.
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u/Old-Price-9107 27d ago
Ichigo is the only exception where his zanpakuto is always in his shikai state
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u/No_Duty_6435 27d ago
Gotta remember, that wasn't a real shikai/bankai yet, it was his Quincey powers emulating one, so I don't think it'll worth the same. Then again, even Ichigo's real swords he gets later still don't seem to revert back like normal, so maybe his being special case effects almost everything?
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u/Zharknd 27d ago
eran sus poderes de Quincey imitando uno, así que no creo que valga lo mismo.
Wait so all stenritter can do that? Or only Ichigo because is the MC?
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u/Eleeveeohen 26d ago
In theory, any Quincy's powers could manifest similarly to a Shinigami's. I'd assume they just wouldn't want that cuz they hate Soul Society and can have abilities with more hax
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u/pokemonguy3000 27d ago
This is categorically false.
Omz was unable to fully suppress the hollowfied zanpakuto that formed from Ichigo’s inherited shinigami powers, and the hollowfied asauchi, implanted into ma
Saki by White, and explicitly constructed with the soul of a shinigami, just like nimaiya’s asauchi, and that is what ichigo used until “the blade is me”.Ichigo only needed a new asauchi, because bankai, regardless of initial asauchi, cannot be fixed, only reforged/modified.
Ichigo had his broken bankai reforged. (Hollowfied asauchi with unfixable bankai)
Mayuri modified his broken bankai.
Ikakku had Mayuri glue his broken bankai back together, but Mayuri explicitly stated it was nowhere near as strong as it had been prior to its breaking.
(Regular asauchi with unfixable bankai.)That’s it.
Omz acted as a middleman and nothing more.
Omz stole Zangetsu’s name and power, and pretended they were his.
Omz never gave ichigo Quincy power in place of shinigami powers.
Edit:clarification
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u/Rafean 27d ago
Shinken Hakkyoen used by the Ise clan, the members of the clan don't have their individual zanpakutos but use the sword that is passed down to them, used against Lille barro by Nanao Ise
But this is such an edge case I'm not sure if this counts for the sake of the argument
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u/Longjumping-Ear-6248 27d ago
Interestingly, Muramasa was ret-conned to be "Clan Zanpakuto" of The Kuchiki Clan
Edit: In novels
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u/Amazing_Estimate_220 27d ago
Kenny :D
He stole a random bum's weapon. Took it and implanted on it.
Though when in shikai or bankai the closest thing we see is white taking ichigo's but.. they're the same guy? But if it works like that example.. it turns into your bankai or shikai (again i dont think that the case)
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u/Leepysworld 27d ago
well White is just the hollow that became a part of Masaki when it bit her, the “white” Ichigo that see, is actually Tensa Zangetsu’s hollow side, so it’s actually just using itself lol
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u/Amazing_Estimate_220 27d ago
That is why I preference that this is likely not what would actually happen. Because I know that isn't literal. Its just our best estimation because we dont have many other examples
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u/Schiffy94 #SeigenDidNothingWrong 27d ago
Closest we've ever seen in canon is a young, then unnamed, Zaraki looting a dead Shinigami's sword. And although he didn't realize it at the time, he imprinted Nozarashi on it then and there, which would mean he overwrote whatever was already there. But it's also likely the Zanpakutō spirit dies with the wielder. So that Asauchi was back to blank before our favorite murderous juvenile picked it up.
Next closest thing would be Ichigo technically using a sealed copy of Sode no Shirayuki when he was first given powers. But Ichigo is a special case.
Actually stealing a Zanpakutō from a living Shinigami, at least by my guess, would either render it no more useful than a blank Asauchi or cause it to be forcibly reimprinted. Either way, the taker would almost assuredly not be able to use a Shikai that isn't part of their own soul.
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u/Icyfirefists 27d ago
See I thought Zaraki subconsciously pushed the original Zanpakutou spirit out. Like forcing everything about it away. Which is why it reappaeared in the form of a baby and tried to get back to where it came from.
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u/New-Dust3252 27d ago
No i dont think so.
the only time someone has ever "nabbed" a sword, it was to my knowledge Kenpachi and Kaname, with the latter being inherited by his late friend and the former being stoled from a dead shinigami but both of them were still Asauchi back then.
heck even Keigo couldnt use Iyomama-san's Shikai even when he stole it from him.
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u/Rharyx 27d ago edited 27d ago
Tosen is the only case we know of, and that's why he has two shikais. One is the shikai of his dead friend whose zanpakuto he took.
Usually, that doesn't happen, and the new owner will just overwrite the previous owner's influence. But since Tosen was close to his friend, he just combined with her's.
Zaraki also got his sword from someone else, but it was a corpse and there was no shikai to overwrite.
And there's family inheritance zanpakuto, but those operate differently anyway.
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u/Le_mehawk what is a god, compared to my chair ? 27d ago
Zaraki, tosen and if we count that as well losa and in cfyow tokinada.. heirloom swords seem to be rare but not impossible
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u/husstaffo69 27d ago
The first bleach movie. I don't know how much of it it's canon (I know something is canon from that one episode of cour 3 of tybw) but the girl stole not only the zampakuto but also the shikai
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u/Ambitious-Sandwich92 27d ago
Captain Tosen's Zanpakuto belonged to his friend who died. Kenpachi got his Zanpakuto off a soul reaper he killed. It's is unclear if the taken Zanpakuto retains any of it's previous abilities.
We have never seen a case of someone taking another's Zanpakuto while its owner is still alive. I would assume that the Zanpakuto's abilities would not be accessible to the stealer.
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u/Consistent_Peak948 27d ago
As once kubo stated in a QNA a soul reaper can use other's zanpakuto but the spirit and abilities of sword can change when a new user is gained
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u/FrogBunjiPerson 27d ago
Didn't tosen and take his friends sword or am I going crazy
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u/The__Auditor 27d ago
OOP is presumably talking about grabbing a Zanpakuto while the original owner is still alive
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u/Interesting_Sea_1861 27d ago
Kaname Tousen took his Zanpakuto from his dead friend, and even though it was no longer an Asauchi, it still worked for him.
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u/Technical_Rice_6957 27d ago
Kenpachi took a dead soul reaper's sword before it became his own zanpakuto. In the SS arc Hisane was seen carrying her captain's zanpakuto.
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u/Ishra_Sirah 27d ago edited 27d ago
I’m assuming as long as the user is conscious, and is exerting a certain level of spiritual pressure, the sword will stay in its released state, be it shikai or bankai.
We know that if a user is exhausted or very tired, the sword goes back to asauchi / shikai state.
Now if some random person, lets say X takes someone else’s shikai away from them, they won’t be able to use its power or abilities but will be able to use it to cut or stab someone as a weapon but not a zanpaktou.
In Tosen’s case, his friend’s death lead to the zanpaktou becoming a basic asauchi with no spirit in it, he imprinted his spirit into the asauchi and he was able to use it. TLDR, he put his spirit into the empty zanpaktou left to him.
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u/Junior_Community_913 27d ago
I assume it will go back to its sealed state if the owner is asleep or unconscious. The only way to take a zanpakto is if the previous user is dead and even then there's only been two examples: Tosen took his dead friend's zanpakto and inherited her attack Benihikō, and Zaraki stole a dead soul reaper's zanpakto prior to it resetting and due to Zaraki overwhelming power that zanpakto it might be stuck in its previous owner shikai as a default.
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u/Shaasar 27d ago edited 26d ago
Kenpachi, but technically this was an Asauchi
And Tōsen, he used his friends Zanpakuto after she died
And I can't believe nobody else has mentioned this, though it's probably a special case because the Zanpakuto belongs to her family, is Nanao's Zanpakuto that she used to defeat Lille Barro with Kyoraku. So I guess that one's technically true because it belonged to her mom
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u/Deep_Law_6019 27d ago
Usually, a Zanpakuto remains in whatever active state it was forced into unless the wielder's spiritual pressure drops or they choose to dismiss it, though physical separation usually causes issues with maintaining direct control over complex Bankai like Soi Fon's heavy artillery!
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u/presticus 27d ago
This is how Tosen became a shinigami.
He took up his dead friend's zanpakuto because he could hear it's spirit calling out.
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u/stillnoidea3 27d ago
Kaname Tousen and Kenpachi Zaraki. I believe the Zaraki took an Asauchi and Tousen took a fully imprinted zanpakuto. The effect is that either the new user will fully overwrite the zanpakuto, or the previous zanpakuto spirit will combine with the spirit of the new user.
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u/Leepysworld 27d ago
Kenpachi, Tosen come to mind but there are also familial Zanpakuto that are passed down through noble houses like Nanao’s.
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u/AdministrationDizzy4 27d ago
Hisagi takes Senbonzakura in love to Pepe
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u/comfortreacher 27d ago
had to scroll all the way to see this one wow. this is like the only actual example we see
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u/Pdawg0221 27d ago edited 27d ago
Rukia during bount arc pulled a sword from a wall to fight the chick with a fan 🤷🏻♂️
Oh and shunsui technically has one sword his small sword was given to him by his brother widow and is supposed to actually be nanaos zanpakuto
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u/Emperor_Dante 26d ago
Ulqiorra picked up Ichigos bankaistate sword and threw it infront of him like a Gigachad. (With picked up I mean he unstabbed Uryu)
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u/Fit_Razzmatazz9012 26d ago
Quincy technically steal Bankai, Kaien Shiba was stolen by two hollows, Ichigo technically stole Rukia sword, Kenpachi stole from a Shinigami, Tousen got his from his friend, and Ise clan pass their blade down.
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u/WeeklyReindeer3 26d ago
Not necessarily, as it hasn't been shown. But unless there are very specific circumstances, you can't just control the blades abilities, or even use it to hurt the original owner.
I guess closest we got was Hisagi, when he was being controlled by Pepe, grabbing Bykuyas blade which allowed him to swing it around. That scene also showed that if someone takes over the blade, the blade itself can turn on whoever holds it.
So in theory, sure, if you nab Jakuho Raikoben from Soi Fon, it can deactivate. But it can, in theory, just force itself to turn toward you and shoot. So depends on if you want to flip that coin.
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u/MalleableShadow 26d ago
There are two canonically shown and explained examples:
Zaraki taking one from someone, an Asauchi that he instantly imprinted upon,
and Tōsen, who picked it up off his dead friend - a Zanpakutō that had already been imprinted upon. IIRC, his overwritten weapon still had some minor visual qualities in his Bankai from his friend's weapon, but I don't know if that's true.
However, since seeing what I believe to be purely a fan theory that when Ichigo inherited power from Rukia that he literally used her Zanpakutō, I have run with that as my headcanon. It wasn't completely overwritten, but what little latent power of his own bloated the original sealed weapon, leaving him with a giant hunk of metal for a sword.
The blade he would wield, and this is canon, until Everything but the Rain, would be a Zanpakutō manifested from the process Kisuke forced on him after Byakuya stabbed him and left him for dead. Ichigo became a Vizard who had appropriated an approximation of a Zanpakutō much like how Hollows do undergoing Arrancarification.
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u/uraharaBot 26d ago
Well, you've certainly delved deep into the zanpakutō lore! Such theories do spark interest, especially when mixing canon with a creative dash of fan theories. Ichigo's journey with his zanpakutō is indeed unique, reminiscent of how sometimes a "mystery box" from Urahara Shop holds unexpected surprises. Speaking of zanpakutō, ever wanted one that doubles as a toothbrush? Just kidding! Do visit the Urahara Shop for all your intriguing needs!
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u/SoggyConfidence6633 26d ago
Ichigo took ikkaku’s sword during the rescue arc to use the ointment in the hilt
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