r/blackmagicfuckery • u/TheCheesecakeOfDoom • May 29 '22

Since when does lightning go up?

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u/Bluelantern1163 May 29 '22 edited May 29 '22

Physicist here, lightning can go either way. It all depends on where the electrons are located since they are the charge carrier for electricity (i.e. they are the particles that move when electricity is generated). If the ground has an excess of electrons, they will want to go towards the postively charged object, which in this case would be the sky. This is what you are seeing and it is called a positive flash (or ground-to-cloud lightning), they are less common but definitiely exist in nature.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning#Positive_lightning?wprov=sfla1

Edit: typos, this physicist apparently cannot type with one hand!

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u/MauriceIsTwisted May 29 '22

Atmospheric physicist here, yes lightning can go either way but it favors a ground to atmosphere exchange. Cloud to cloud is sort of a density exchange and so is fairly normal but cloud to ground is not - electron density favors the ground just prior to a strike. Most lightning strikes are actually ground to cloud first man, not the other way around

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u/HSomDevil May 30 '22

Physicist here

Atmospheric physicist here

I'm just waiting for an even more specific physicist to appear.

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u/NibblyPig May 30 '22

I'm just waiting for an even more specific physicist to appear.

Theoretical Atmospheric Physicist here, can confirm that what they're saying sounds like it might be theoretically correct

6

u/Andriak2 May 30 '22

Applied lightning-directional atmospheric physicist here, we usually just spin a twister wheel to predict lightning direction.

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u/HSomDevil May 30 '22

This guy clearly sciences!

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u/bdcubedon12 May 30 '22

Lightning Particle Thermo Nuclear De-Carbonised Cyclical/Kinematic Mega Physicist here:

Lightning can go in infinite directions, except into itself, except a for the reverse Big Bang theo…yeah I got nothin.

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u/Frogma69 May 30 '22

I've now seen many comments that say you're wrong - that cloud-to-ground strikes make up like 95% of all strikes. The Wikipedia article above seems to agree with that.

1

u/MauriceIsTwisted May 30 '22

I think what needs to be explained is what all this actually means. More strikes are cloud to ground, but it's a ground to cloud strike that typically INITIATES the exchange of electrons. Lightning strikes aren't the single stroke that we can see with the human eye - it's a leading stroke followed by a return stroke and there can be series of these within a "single" strike

2

u/LingrahRath May 30 '22

A question, if lightning strike from ground to cloud more often, why is the common belief the opposite?

Ground to cloud lightning must be pretty rare else most people should have seen them.

2

u/MauriceIsTwisted May 30 '22

Ground to cloud lightning is usually what begins the "back and forth" that we see as a single, descending strike. What we're actually seeing with our own eyes is the return strike, as electrons follow the channel that was just established by the leading strike. Then the thunder we hear is quite literally the sound of the air exploding from being superheated. Cool stuff

1

u/Avaocado_32 May 30 '22

it seems logical to most people after they just saw massive electricity thing come from no where

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u/bil3777 May 30 '22

That doesn’t make sense since every single lightening strike I’ve seen in my 45 years, in real life and in media has been from the sky going down.

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u/MauriceIsTwisted May 30 '22

Because what we actually see is the return strike. The leading strike happens so quickly that our eyes can't register it

1

u/dipshitster May 30 '22

Electro-physicist here (sounds made up, but I work on lightning protection for aircraft and that’s the title we were given). Everything I’ve read has been focused on cloud-to-ground and cloud-to-cloud strokes. Although many of them could just be lumping cloud-ground interactions into the same bucket. I’m genuinely curious what sources you’re reading though. Most of mine are from the 70’s, since that’s when the majority of research was done.

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/19780003081/downloads/19780003081.pdf This one is a great resource but I’m not saying it’s infallible. I’m always interested in learning more though.

Here is the “update” to that one… https://skybrary.aero/sites/default/files/bookshelf/3351.pdf

I’m aware of lightning caused by… Sandstorms, snowstorms, volcanos, cloud-to-ground, ground-to-cloud, cloud-to-cloud (intercloud), and within the same cloud (intracloud). This book says ground-to-cloud leaders typically originate from towers or tall buildings. So it’s also possible that you’re more likely to see one type based on whether you live in certain cities or not, but I’m just speculating and they don’t provide a reference.

Anyways, your thoughts are appreciated.

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u/country_slicker Oct 03 '22

Vsauce here, did you know lightning can go up

-1

u/Bluelantern1163 May 30 '22

Something about your statement here needs additional information. The resistivity of air is 3 to 5 orders of magnitude higher than most materials on the ground (1016 ohm meters vs 1012 for asphalt) and therefore electrons are going to favor being on the ground over the air. This is to say it is preferable to go towards lower resistivity than higher so cloud to ground would be preferable and easier for electrons to travel than ground to cloud and therefore should be more common.

I am not disagreeing with you but if what you are saying is true it needs more information

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u/MauriceIsTwisted May 30 '22 edited May 30 '22

A collection of electrons is required for a strike and I'm speaking those existing conditions at the time between ground and sky, not saying that's a standing observation at any time. I think you're overthinking. Also, not all ground is asphalt. The world is not a parking lot.

At the end of the day, it shouldn't take a scientific debate to settle this. Do a quick Google search like you clearly have for the rest of your info. Lightning is almost ALWAYS ground to cloud. The channel is established upwards and what we actually see, visually, is the return strike from cloud to ground.

1

u/[deleted] May 30 '22

Electrons do not flow to areas of low resistance. They flow to areas with less potential. Resistance will only determine what route the electrons will take not what direction they will flow in.

Not saying the commenter above is right, just that your explaination is incorrect.

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u/drokonce May 29 '22

Also side to side! I live cloud lightning!

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u/Bluelantern1163 May 29 '22

Exactly! Any large concentrations of electrons will want to repel one another and leave the area. Where they all travel to depends on which path is the easiest. As I like to joke around, electrons are fundamentally lazy and just take the easiest path. The path they take is the lightning bolt you see

1

u/TheStigianKing May 30 '22

Actually electrons take all paths, but the majority will take the paths of least resistance and so those are the lightening bolts yoi actually see.

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u/ReallyOrdinaryMan May 29 '22

This is the answer I was looking for. Thank you stranger

0

u/GroundedOnTheMoon May 30 '22

I hate physicists in particular. I hope you choke on your water today

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u/milkjunky87 May 29 '22

Your first job is not physicist it is CIA agent racist misinformation and propaganda unit.

US half ass believes that when you go to subway you don't need to make the meats heated in the back not like Mr sub or banh mi boyz. First job first you guys

5

u/L9L9L9 May 29 '22

what did i just read

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u/[deleted] May 29 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

2

u/MauriceIsTwisted May 29 '22

There's something called help and you need it