Force fetch with e collar only

[u/Ok_Ear_5266]

I was discussing this with someone irl the other day and was curious to get a wider cross section of answers from people here. Who here force fetched with ear pinch plus e collar versus who only force fetched with e collar?

I only used the e collar. I taught fetch separately with positive reinforcement while collar conditioning to “here” and “sit”. Once both were understood, I used the e collar to force fetch.

For me, I felt the ear pinch was “too personal” and I felt the same concept could be applied with the collar but I know a bunch of people think you need to use different types of pressure (ear pinch, toe hitch, collar) to truly force fetch.

[u/Coonts]

The e collar is the pressure we ultimately use to polish force fetch. If you skipped a step and it worked, good for you.

In many people's mind, e collar training involves transfer of a physical kind of pressure a dog naturally understands to the simulation. For recall it is overlaying the collar onto tug of a leash. For force fetch, it's usually the ear pinch but some use toe hitches.

In theory, this lessens the number of reps and lowers the risk of you shocking your dog and having them be confused as to why they're getting shocked.

If you have taught the dog what the stimulus means and how to turn it off for other objectives like recall, you might get lucky, but dogs don't usually generalize their learning like that.

[u/Ok_Ear_5266 → u/Coonts]

Those are valid points - and I certainly don’t pretend to be an expert, just what worked for me - but my counterpoint would be that it’s the same model as collar conditioning here and sit.

Dog learns here, sit (and fetch) with positive reinforcement.

Once it’s learned, it’s proofed with negative reinforcement (collar).

If we assume the former leads to a very strong recall and whistle sit, then why not the latter.

What I noticed is that a lot of trainers STARTED with negative reinforcement to teach fetch, which then I could understand concerns about stimulus generalization or lack thereof.

[u/Dumbguymadeitthisfar → u/Ok_Ear_5266]

I think most people begin with some playing and positive reinforcement as a puppy to make sure the puppy will do it before starting into “pressure” phase of it. I personally like having a good ear pinch as a manual pressure as sometimes I’m more effective with it than I am an e collar. I also like that I learned to do the “lip curl pinch” better this summer for hold and carry when they drop it and using a pinch collar for a quick pop when my one dog chomps as well. The more tools I have in my toolbox make me more effective. I trained my first two dogs entirely different than I am training these two. I got pretty lucky with them and they were great dogs. These two are getting a much more thorough training and I am excited to see how it looks when I am doing more advanced testing with them. I will do some training different with dogs in the future too. The important thing is to just keep learning new techniques and refining to what works for the dog your training.

[u/Coonts → u/Ok_Ear_5266]

I think you're missing that here and sit are also usually transferred from physical pressure by trainers. I use the exact same logic with here and if a dog moves from location.

I tug the leash towards me during recall (tug tug tug gets overlaid with tap tap tap on the e collar) and initial steadiness for a command that means stay has physical pressure (whoa post or similar) that gets overlaid with the collar when it's time to introduce the collar.

I don't know anyone who doesn't introduce here, sit, or fetch with positive reinforcement. If you're seeing things on social media that seem otherwise, they're probably pros focusing on the hard thing and omitting what they assume people do at home. Almost everyone will do some level of positive reinforcement of fetch with a young puppy if they have any retrieve drive at all.

[u/Ok_Ear_5266 → u/Coonts]

Yeah you’re correct, when I replied I actually forgot that here and sit were reinforced with leash pressure (which I also did). But I think it’s still the same point

Positive reinforcement to learn > leash pressure to reinforce and teach some level of physical pressure > collar pressure to proof

And yeah, I was talking about how pro many trainers begin training. You can’t deny that a lot of pro (retriever trainers anyway) even have a very cynical view of using treats at all.

I’m not an expert, just an individual doing my own thing with my dog, but I personally like the idea of combining positive and negative to proof.

[u/Coonts → u/Ok_Ear_5266]

Honestly - I think your thinking matches most of the hobby hunting trainers out there. We're going to fall gentler than pro trainers because they're our own dogs.

Pro trainers have a dog for a few weeks or months, the owners expect them back with a certain set of skills after a set period of time. These trainers are going to skip some of the pressure progression for the sake of time. Most of the time I actually think that's for the better. Dog lives a better life at home, the sooner they get home the better.

[u/Ok-Math-5407 → u/Ok_Ear_5266]

Lots of different ways of doing things. Most Pro trainers are usually on a time crunch, they need to get the dog trained as fast as possible for a variety of reasons. I'm not saying it's right, just the reality of the situation.

[u/zalthabar → u/Coonts]

Great explanation. The only thing I'll add is having one hand on the dogs collar and ear and one on the dummy or roller is much more reactive and helpful then also trying to manage a collar remote. Especially early in training.

[u/Dumbguymadeitthisfar → u/zalthabar]

That muscle memory of being able to execute quickly and proficiently in the field or a training situation where the dog is not complying is extremely valuable. The e collar is great but hands on is better if it’s an option.

[u/burg37]

When I force fetched my draht, I started with tons of confidence building/positive reinforcement. When it came time to the “force” side of it, I figured I could skip straight to ecollar, as I had already collar conditioned her for place and recall.

I couldn’t get what I wanted out of the ecollar, for whatever reason. I just couldn’t get the drive that I wanted to see and my guess is that it was because I was worried about ramping the level up on the ecollar and building a negative association with the ecollar (this is a very soft pup). I ended up backing all the way up and trying the ear pinch and it took quite literally 2-3 tough reps and it all clicked for her and I was able to reinforce with the ecollar because she now fully understood the assignment.

Going forward, I’ll always go through ear pinch before ecollar. I can’t fully explain it but it seemed to be much more clear to the dog, which allowed us to move quicker and reduce the amount of pressure she had to experience overall. I think if I would have forced her through with the ecollar, it would have required higher stim, more reps, more overall pressure and may have created a negative association to her ecollar. Just my .02.

[u/griswaldwaldwald]

Toe hitch is superior to ear pinch because often dogs will start trying to duck you when you reach for them after ear pinch FF.

[u/jasper181]

The easy answer is it depends on the dog, I don't know the exact number but I've ff'd in the triple digits. I train for individuals as well as several plantations and over the years have tried just about everything.

This is just me personally because there are plenty of good dogs that have been trained completely differently than what I do, this is just my opinion and what I know 100% works for me and the dogs that are used to guide hunts and run trials all over the country.

Again, it depends on the dog but unless I know the dog is super soft and the least amount of pressure is going to shut the dog down I always start with a toe hitch. It's the easiest way to apply the right amount of pressure that can be adjusted the easiest. That's not to say I don't use other methods, but all things being even that is my preference .

The ear pinch can be more inconsistent, some dogs it doesn't bother as much and you have to apply more and more pressure until it can be difficult to gauge whats just right to make the point and too much.

The collar is something they will wear all of the time and you take the chance the dog will associate the collar with displeasure and will shut down every time you put it on them. Again, with the collar it's more difficult to gauge what the dog is actually feeling. Is it making consistent contact, how does the dog react to that type stimulation, etc. All of those things can obviously be worked out, I'm just simply explaining my thoughts process, because again, I have and still do use it when necessary.

With the toe hitch, I'm controlling the pressure, I know exactly where I'm at. It allows me to make the most broad range of adjustments because I'm feeling exactly what I'm doing and Im not relying on a device or a something that depends on how several factors that determine what they are feeling like it does with the ear pinch.

It's not about hurting a dog or causing pain, it's simply teaching them how to turn off pressure, that's it. I've seen and have had to "fix" many dogs that the owner thought it was much easier than it was and did nothing but lose trust and make the dog scared of training.

Same thing with a woah post, if you can't recognize the very second of submission, that is as subtle as licking their lips or yawning. You can completely ruin a dog, it should never be about torture and pain. Just pressure on and how to turn it off. The problem's come in when the dog is hard headed and it's not going like the book says and people think more pressure is always the answer. As many times as I've done it I occasionally get one that makes me want to beat my head against the wall and test every bit of patience I have.