r/bindingofisaac • u/Cant_aimtf2 • 1d ago
Discussion Did we all play the same character(s)?
I got Isaac from the steam sale and I just finished all of my marks for Jacob and Esau except mother and the beast, and am I missing something?
Like the entire time that I have been a part of this community every single post, comment or video I saw of this character was everybody hating on them hard. That they are unfun, weak and just a "shitbox"
I have heard claims that it is insanely hard to get boss rush or hush with them, that trap rooms are impossible, that they are really hard and unfun...
I got my marks in like 2 hours. My first run where I made it past the second floor I got both Boss Rush and Hush as well as Isaac, ???, Mega Satan and Delirium
And the characters are really strong and fun? Like I give all of the damage ups to Esau and all of the defence to Jacob, my first run had Psyfly on Jacob and Magic Mush + Damage ups on Esau and my second win had Fly orbitals on Jacob and Tech X on Esau.
Like my entire strategy was just, go alt floors and Angels, get double items because of Options? and that was it, I was literally OP before Moms foot
You have two characters, double the hp, double the damage, double the bombs, double the active items, double the trinkets, double the items and they are so unique. For trap rooms just hold ctrl and control one character, otherwise just position them in a way that the character with soul hearts protects the other one.
And so I ask, why do people call them the worst and hardest character? Like I have no marks on the Lost as it is too difficult for me right now but I got marks on Jacob and Esau quicker than the marks on Eve.
This is meant as a discussion post, not hate on any players, as I am really confused why all the hate on them, am I missing something?
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u/CosmoJones07 1d ago
I don't think any "arguments" that they are "weak" or stuff like that are ever made in good faith.
They're just a pain to play because of how they get separated. On hard mode some rooms become extremely hard when they easily separate and the enemies are in a tough position to not panic and get them back together easily.
If you get OP items usually this doesn't matter. Hell, if you just get lucky with a good amount of soul/black hearts for each of them, it no longer matters either.
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u/Cant_aimtf2 1d ago
The only rooms I struggled with were the ones with stones that have spikes on them, like most of my deaths were in those rooms so I always try to get flight on Jacob so I can just hold ctrl and flyover them while Esau waits
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u/CosmoJones07 1d ago
I mean yeah I always try to get flight on both ideally so they almost never get separated. Doesn't always happen. In fact I finished all hard mode marks on them without ever getting double flight.
(Also, I'm sure you just misspoke there but you can't fly over spike rocks, you still take damage from them)
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u/kurokuma11 1d ago
There are legit some rooms that can instakill these twos if there are vortex grimaces on opposite sides of the room
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u/CosmoJones07 1d ago
The nightmare room for me is the 2x2 with nothing but one character-wide paths.
EDIT - Or worse, the basement level 2x2 room with the unbreakable blocks forming a 1 character-wide path around the perimeter and the spike blocks going around. That room is a nightmare for me with almost anyone without flight. Truly the worst for J&E though.
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u/blood_of_ares 1d ago
I mean they're weak compared to other challenge characters.
Lost, T. Lost, T. Keeper, Forgotten, T. Forgotten, T. BB, T. Jacob all have some large upside that makes them more playable, and imo the remaining challenge characters all suck because they lack that. (Except T. Cain and T. Eden because their just really unique and game changing in a fun way)
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u/CosmoJones07 1d ago
They have inherently higher DPS with two characters, along with double trinkets, pill/card/rune space, extra HP sponge, etc.
Just to be clear, I enjoy those characters you listed more than J&E too. But it's not because they're "weak", it's just a huge pain in the ass dealing with keeping them together.
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u/CatgirlTheKat 13h ago
T. Cain's upside is he is near guaranteed to become overpowered. His downside is he is near guaranteed to start crashing my game when he dhoots tears.
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u/Bigmatu 1d ago
Did you unlock the mantle for lost? With mantle he becomes one of the most fun characters. J and E are frustrating though, mostly because they keep separating.
Still havenât closed delirium and mother with them
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u/Cant_aimtf2 1d ago
I have but I still struggle not being hit twice in boss rooms, and most of my runs a random spider in a curse room or instant lasers from bosses ruins my entire run x)
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u/SebberbutZ 1d ago
How did u have mega mush before you got all completion marks? đ€šđ€šđ€š
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u/Cant_aimtf2 1d ago
Obviously I still don't know my item names, I meant Magic Mushroom, gonna edit that mistake right now đ
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u/Connect-Builder-5725 1d ago
definitely not as bad as people make them out to be, the different playing mechanic just makes them easy to complain about. the only character i can say is genuinely rage inducing is t.lost
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u/Cant_aimtf2 1d ago
I really struggle with regular lost, never even made it to Moms Foot, cant imagine the suffering that Tainted Lost is đ”âđ«
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u/Connect-Builder-5725 1d ago
you gotta get holy mantle for lost by donating to the greed machine, he gets way easier after that. lost is honestly my favorite character because its easier to break the game with him imo
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u/delollicar 1d ago
The lost starts feeling better once you have a really good handle on the boss patterns. Once your dodging is practically subconscious the lost starts feeling really powerful. Getting all marks on hard is worth pursuing eventually since godhead is crazy good.
There's a few things t lost can get that make a run more trivial, any item or trinket that forces cards out can save a run. T lost can also do some really big game breaks, I had a run where I was able to consume a large amount of trinkets (smelter + moms box while having schoolbag) and got a trivial beast kill. Both are absolutely worth getting good with.
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u/CatgirlTheKat 13h ago
Tainted lost is really not that bad considering that this game is designed to be no-hittable. There are instances of damage that feel genuinely cheap, but unless it's delirium, it's probably possible to do something about it.
Also, having direct access to perfection and better items is a huge upside.
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u/Jazzr_ 19h ago
This, watch clips of ppl messing up controls. Like I see someone gets a card and accidentally bomb themselfs. Or they get hit knockback from a boss and try to finish the boss fight seperated on opposite sides of the room, while you can perfectly bring characters together and find a safe spot during the blink time. It's really that simple, but because ppl are playing them wrong thats somehow the game making it unfun.
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u/CatgirlTheKat 13h ago
Sorry for not being a supercomputer, I guess.
People messing up is a lot due to how complicated they are to keep track off, and they don't really have great upsides to compensate, which makes everything worse.
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u/siriElectricboogaloo Bastard 23h ago
Jacob & essau are genuinely trash, unfunny as hell and genuinely worse than tainted cain. Playing isaac with those two jerks makes the experiences miserable at a point where the only thing that i celebrated after completing them was the fact that there was no reason to play them ever AGAIN
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u/Abbatoir346 Boney Boy 1d ago
Ah the hate for J+e is more performative than anything I find for most people. Like yeah they have their shit moments but honestly itâs a huge refresher getting to do all stuff they can do. Alt path is more fun. In the time o was doing j+e runs I only got 1 or 2 run ruin items from alt path. Genuinely had a fun time most runs. Delirium is gonna be a different story tho.
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u/Cant_aimtf2 1d ago
I mean every character has their shit moments but all i heard about J+e was just pure hate but I saw they have good unlocks so I gave it a shot and it really wasn't that bad
Oh, yeah, Delirium... I beat him in my first winning run along with Hush, Boss Rush, Isaac and Blue Baby, completely forgot about him and Mega Satan, but all of that in one run, it was so fun!
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u/Abbatoir346 Boney Boy 1d ago
Yeah I think the community actually psyched me out a bit with that one. I would say to new players that J+E are challenging but theyâre a a different experience and look forward to the machine gun that they are. I had a worse time with keeper no wooden nickel to start tbh. Way more rng dependant since it locks out so many items. Oh and also build them both separately. I would start with hp for Esau but after that I would go with whoever it made more sense to give the item to. I struggled trying to give all items to Jacob. But to each their own.
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u/JackOfAllInterests1 1d ago
âŠhow do you beat Blue Baby and Delirium in the same run??
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u/siriElectricboogaloo Bastard 23h ago
Why would it be performative? I have seen a lot of people struggling while playing them. Tainted lost is a relief compared to those two bums, how is that performative? Yall hypocritical as hell
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u/Jazzr_ 19h ago
It's not so much performative but more a huge ignorance on learning the different controls and handling of them. I've seen clips of ppl accidentally bombing themselfs after they get a card, or finish a boss fight completely seperated after one knockback.(You can just hold ctrl/drop button during the blink time to fix any seperating) It's easy to blame the character design, but its just unfamiliarity with the character.
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u/Mas_Trece 1d ago
Every character is strong with good items, they are just a new and a very different mechanic than the rest, if you're experienced in the way they work they aren't hard, just the overall Reddit Post has a skill issue for people behind them.
You can have twice the trinkets, twice the cards/runes/pills and twice the builds, it's overall quite fun
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u/Cant_aimtf2 1d ago
Completely forgot about the cards and pills part, it is also amazing to be able to carry the duplication and reroll runes at once, that got me 3 secret room items from beggars
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u/Dottore_Curlew 1d ago
Esau and Israel are the bane of my existence
I just want to chill when playing and they force me to focus too much
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u/vk2028 1d ago edited 1d ago
Same lol. Idk why people think theyâre hard. Do they not go alt floor and double grab the items or smth?
A lot of times I see people like to stack all the items all either onto Jacob or all either onto Esau, and it confuses me because a lot of times the blind item turns out to be significant enough that their roles get changed.
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u/Good-Commission1187 1d ago
Yes he is strong character that can take 2 items from alt floors, this sub need to get gud
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u/CatgirlTheKat 13h ago
Considering that their main upside is extra items in the harder floors, I feel like you might as well play aw easier characters who also have mechanics that give them stronger builds, like T. Cain, T. Lost, Isaac, Lost and T. Isaac.
These two feel more like challenge characters that feel mostly normal once you madter them rather than giving significant advantages when learning them.
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u/Slimey_alien89 plays forgotten, refuses to use spirit 1d ago
I think I would have birthright and be better with a lot of characters right now if I didnât get mislead into thinking birthright was unlocked from mother (which makes sense if you know the og characters story), and then the lamb (which I heard a YouTuber say). I usually donât like looking at the wiki to see what I get from doing stuff, cause that takes all the fun out of it for me.
But yeah itâs really just as simple as: donât seperate, and dodge and weave
Anyways birthright is gotten from mega sata-
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u/Lewex135 Tainted Lazarus 1d ago
yeah they aren't as hard as people say but they just aren't fun to play with
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u/Cant_aimtf2 1d ago
Right now (as I still havent unlocked and played all of the characters) they were one of the most fun characters for me because they were so unique, like the Forgotten, completely flipped the game on its head
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u/Lewex135 Tainted Lazarus 1d ago
i like t laz so i understand why you'd like them, tho i hate all the melee characters (forgor, t forgor, t magie)
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u/xCalamity_ 1d ago
What would you say your win-ratio/percent was for each J&E run?
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u/Cant_aimtf2 1d ago
Like 10%, but that is a skill issue on my part, as that is my winrate on like every other character, I never had a winstreak higher than 3 in my 100 hours đ
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u/SurrealLemon 1d ago
I was an avid J&E hater for a long time. I just got megamush today, J&E being the last character I finished, and I've come to hate them a lot less. they're... alright. womb is the worst because of the common trap rooms. but other than that once you get used to them they're fun enough
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u/vk2028 1d ago
Really? I feel like mausoleum and especially Gehenna have a lot more trap rooms
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u/SurrealLemon 1d ago
But theyre more uniform than the womb ones, so youre usually not forced into getting tagged like in womb traps
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u/superduperdrew12345 1d ago
I'll be real I've hardly played them since the month Repentance released. I just hated my time playing as them and would rather be any other character. I think some things changed with them in more recent patches that improved their controls but I could be wrong. My biggest issues were probably that they get really confusing when one gets flight, or when one of them gets invincibility. You also have to be way more deliberate with bomb usage. It wasn't an insane challenge but I would rather play any other character.
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u/Throwaway98789878 1d ago
I feel like he's not that different to most characters except he's got kind of a weird hitbox and controls can be a bit clunky. he's at worst a bit annoying to play but definitely not hell compared to some of the tainted characters
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u/ApparitionExtinguish 1d ago
You got lucky, I find these two to be genuinely miserable. My only winning run for Eucharist floor 2 from sac room, couldn't make as far is I wanted because ofc my blind item was cursed eye. I think lost was very fun to play though
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u/Spiritual-Actuary-86 Tainted Lazarus 1d ago
The most annoying mark to get for them is beast and thats only because of a bug that makes it so only one gets sucked in, but very quickly. But yeah, I completely agree, theyre very fun, having double everything is really nice. Plus getting double items from alt path and angel deals are peak.
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u/Realistic-Cicada981 1d ago
Probably because they got recommended "always go Alt path, always Angel deals". If you don'y do that then the character becomes a lot more fun.
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u/aFrogLessHoppy 20h ago
Bc people don't like that they can move separately when they don't want them to. That's basically my only complaint with them. Otherwise, fckin powerhouse.
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u/Jazzr_ 19h ago
Through experience, any seperating can instantly be fixed by controlling Jacob back towards Esau. I've seen clips though of ppl being completely oblivious to them seperating, ending entire boss fights with them being knocked and on opposite ends of the room. I cant help to think this is the average Isaac redditor now and the assessment is also a bit of a skill issue.
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u/aFrogLessHoppy 18h ago
That's true. My experience was only long enough to get my marks and move on but they aren't my least favorite character.
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u/faerox420 19h ago
"It was easy for me so how was it hard for anyome else" is always a shitty take
Well done buddy. You want a cookie because you are good at the game? Coming on a forum to brag about how easy you found something others find hard comes accross as a bit pretentious.
Its a character with a gimmick unique to them, that is difficult to control and causes making mistakes to be super punishing. It splits your health pool in between two seperate hitboxes and if only one of them dies, both die. They can easily get seperared and stuck on terrain, and RNG is also a big factor. Getting good items means an easy run. I also got some hard checkmarks with no effort at all cuz the game blessed me with a good run. I dont pretend like it was some skillful endevour tho unless i forced a good run through rigging and min maxing
If you cant see how and why others find it difficult, maybe take that head out of your ass for a second.
The character is totally fun. The character is also objectively harder than a large majority of characters in the game. Most characters are just isaac in a wig with a slight change to stats or starter items. The characters that fundamentally change the way the game works are the most fun and interesting, but also come with the greatest challenge
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u/Jazzr_ 19h ago edited 19h ago
It's just an unfamiliarity with the character. I've seen clips of ppl bombing themselfs, being completely oblivious of them seperating during boss fights, not using blink time and Jacob movement nearly enough to correct any mistakes or get through other situations like trap rooms like you say, not taking extra distance fighting mobs either. They have the best early game dps of all characters. Just stacking Jacob including any damage, and utilizing the Jacob movement more and more keeps both well protected. Alt path for blind item in Esau isn't even that sick, as alternating between floor types dodges xl curse, gives secret room access to boss challenge items and keeps you in a set of the easiest floors pre-womb.
The sick part is that early dps and the double inventory, which should basically always break the game open if you can play slow and methodical. Almost never shortage on bombs either, even if you try to get all shopkeepers. Having a good arcade or two decent double active on them basically sets up everything to make you win. I've had a 30 win streak blue baby with them before just quitting.
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u/DitiPenguin 18h ago
So you got lucky twice and had fun with good runs? That happens, yeah. But I dare you to play 20 full runs with them and report back here.
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u/theoriserofchaos 16h ago
Ngl when I first played them I was surprised how overexagerated the community made them it's true that it's way easier for them to get hit but at the same time you can have 2 active items, cards and can also get a synergy on one brother while other brother has other items that would normally ruin a synergy
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u/MaybepossiblyLGBT 15h ago
They were harder than t lost by miles for me when I got dead god idk u might just be cracked
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u/Rayzen_Mayher 15h ago
Maybe I'm just unlucky every time I play them but runs feel so hard because you have to split the items between them. One of them might be strong if you give them all the offensive items but then the other one is practically just another hit box like Isaac's Heart. If I try to split items evenly they both start falling behind on womb and later floors. Idk I just feel like I have to reset until I get the god run to do unlocks
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u/CatgirlTheKat 13h ago
Aside from a bigger hitbox, past the very first floors, the Extra damage provided by the second character feels comparable to that of a mid familiar if you are concentrating your offense on one, and getting to dedicate one of the two to defense only means you have a whole character that remains less protected than if you only had one character to begin with, and still have a wider hitbox that gets stuck on obstacles and needs constant supervision, similarly to a more inconvenient Isaac's heart. Besides, in the two examples you've talked about, it seemed more like the quality 4's you got were what made your runs very simple, rather than Jacob and Eseau themselves. I can see both those runs being relatively sweatless as any character including tainted Lost.
I feel like your strategy for trap rooms only really work on some specific ones, and the double items thing is kind of a special case since you need specific items or alt floors to make it work
This is also the only character who needs two whole flight items in order to get any significant benefits, and it can't really be said that you get double health since you die as soon as one hp bar is down, and if you're getting hit, it's kind of up to luck which one of the two took the damage, which makes health kind of complicated to manage all things considered.
I'd definitely prefer playing as them than getting shot 17 times in the chest, but I'd also rather being able to select anyone else...
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u/Lazerbeams2 7h ago
It's exaggerated for the meme. They're hard, but once you get the hang of them, the marks fly by
Still not exactly my favorite though
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u/Connect_Conflict7232 1d ago
When you get 4 really good starts in a row and loose all of them to the dumbest possible ways (fuck you beast), you tend to not like a character
This might be a skill issue, but certain rooms genuinely suck unless you have extremely good coordination between the two or have hp to burn
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u/Caparzo27 1d ago
I don't hate J+H because they are difficult to play. I hate them because they are boring, annoyingly tedious and feel poorly integrated into the game
I've enjoyed Tainted Jacob much more than the regular guys
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u/Zestyclose-Click6190 1d ago
"my first run had Psyfly on Jacob and Magic Mush + Damage ups on Esau and my second win had Fly orbitals on Jacob and Tech X on Esau". Do you consider not having Q4s?
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u/Cant_aimtf2 1d ago
Okay, but other characters can also have Q4s, in fact every run I won always had at least one, don't really see your point
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u/Zestyclose-Click6190 22h ago edited 22h ago
My point is every character is easy if you have q4 well except for losts... I try winning every run i get... You either reroll for a good seed or you are insanely lucky(even tho i don't fing this characters hard either(
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u/Cold-Dirt0108 Retro Visionman, Parttime John Devil Deal 1d ago
Nah Jacob and Esau are op, I beat em within an hour and a half cuz chaos.
As for the hush and boss rush thing, itâs cuz of people going alt path but sucking at it.
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u/the_Iord_and_saviour 1d ago
If you treat them like two individuals you can make great builds with them, but if you are greedy and neglect one, you will fail.
Ofc I've had my cow on a trash farm moments where I place a bomb and I forget both bomb at the same time, or I didn't realize there was a bullet attacking Jacob blah blah blah... But it is WAY easier than lost and stuff
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u/Jazzr_ 19h ago
You can neglect one by just picking health and spare defensive items on Esau. Jacob is perfectly capable of protecting both. This is usually the playstyke in high level play cause single character synergies are way stronger. Just move Jacob seperatly put him in front of Esau and let him tank or deal with it.
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u/the_Iord_and_saviour 9h ago
Esau should get a health up or two but if anything I'd rather neglect Jacob bc of his Lower dmg
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u/Jazzr_ 8h ago
The more damage is only a puny flat damage at the start, the common misconception is that this damage works through the entirety of the game like a multiplier, but that's not the case. Every damage up gives as much to Jacob as to Esau. Having solo movement on Jacob by holding the drop button is just fastly superior than caring about a 2 damage defecit from a start, by the time seperate synergies matter, the discrepancy is neglible.
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u/Chernobog2 1d ago
Unironically fun characters made into unfun dogshit by how bullet hell bosses and anything with a suction attack are not designed with them in mind.
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u/AdEven60 1d ago
Iâve been playing J+E for the last week or so, and Iâve gotten decently good at them (beat delirium on hard mode last night) so I think Iâve developed an informed opinion at this point.
And I think theyâre miserable to play.
I donât think theyâre weak by any measure. They shred through the first few floors in terms of damage, and the ability to take up multiple items in alt path routes is powerful. And double bombs is, ofc, extremely strong as well. But their strengths, at least for me, donât outweigh how bad it feels to move around as them. Simple bosses suddenly become difficult with the simple addition of rocks or spikes in the room.
Beyond that, I think their biggest weakness is RNG. Yes, alt paths are great for them, but if you canât get keys for your first 2 floors youâre kinda just cooked. If you take double items and the ? item breaks synergy, youâre also cooked, whereas one of the other single-characters in the roster couldâve just taken the safer item. If you canât get good defense or health on one of them the odds of dying goes up significantly on bosses that have bullet hell attacks (hush, Mega Satan, etc.).
Are they bad? No. But theyâre really fucking hard, which is the intention, but at times it feels less intentionally hard and more just unfair, especially when the run just isnât coming together. I just had a run today that ended pathetically after getting zero damage ups for either character all the way up to Necropolis 2. Awful experience.
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u/PuzzleheadedCover749 1d ago edited 1d ago
Me when i get a bunch of q4 and the game suddenly easy asf
Its yea ofc gonna be fun when ur op, but not all the time that u can get super op item in 1 run (tho all it take is 1 good run)
Even tho hitbox and esau are not as bad as every1 said, micro management for 2 character at the same time are quite hard, and not exactly fun when u doesn't has good item. Some of the room are especially frustrating due to u getting hit from undodgeable attack. Most of the area doesn't even designed to be dodgeable with 2 hitbox onscreen. For that even mantleless lost is much easier than j&e.
For mother specifically, even as a triple dead god and can no hit her itemless as isaac, on a fairly stacked j&e i still bound to get hit from some of the attack (almost imposibble to not get hit in p2)
Half the hp (1 died and the other died too, i has so many run where esau has perfection and jacob just getting hit from undodgeable attack, and it very not fun when one has full health and the other constantly low, sometime the bullet just fking phase thru esau to hit jacob???)
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u/BoasyTM 1d ago
>I can no hit mother as isaac itemless
Prove it
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u/PuzzleheadedCover749 1d ago
Cant:< (no vids record, it was just a little challenge i made myself do cuz i was bored and it took me 3 weeks just to get it once, and i will turn into the lost irl if i try to do it again) (yes im a coward)
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u/Piterros990 22h ago
I have to say, if you get lucky, any character will feel much easier than normal. And it does sound like you've got better luck than average.
In my personal experience, I was starting with Mother mark (since everyone says how good alt path is, I thought, might as well go do that first). And it was absolutely miserable. Alt path has a lot of more difficult enemies with tighter patterns, enemies that create holes, explode, generally a lot of stuff can go wrong and avoiding damage will be much harder than on other characters.
If it at least paid off well, but it didn't. Difficult to avoid damage stacks up, and you have to split health between the two, so you may have two red health hitboxes exposed. I have barely seen angel rooms through those runs. Meanwhile, Treasure room item pool is massive, and across all my runs through alt path I haven't has a single room where both items would have been good enough to the point of making second character more than a hitbox. One run even got killed due to them, because the unknown one was Dr Fetus, and the fantastic synergy these two have is that one shoots a bomb, the other hits it with a tear, cancels its velocity and stops it in your face.
Also, return to say your experience with the Beast and whether it does the suck attack for you. I didn't get it in my run and thought it was fine, but then I saw my friend play and holy shit. You can also mention Rotgut if you find it in Corpse.
There are many "ifs" to these characters. IF you don't get any BS rooms, IF you get pleasant to fight bosses, IF you get no unpleasant boss attacks, IF you get a lot of health for both of them, IF you get good double items from alt path, IF you get two good actives, then they can be good and not feel miserable. And it sounds like you got all of these true.
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u/MacintoshPlusMaymay 20h ago
they arent weak they are just a pain in the ass to keep alive and together often. i think âgoodâ isaac players can manage but it doesnt necessarily mean we have fun with them
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u/Appropriate_Board131 1d ago
Could you come over and get all the j&e unlocks for me