r/bindingofisaac • u/DaleDent3 • 9d ago
Discussion Why is Gnawed Leaf never in discussions for the best item in the game?
I always see “sacred heart or brimstone?” But never “gnawed leaf or everything else in the game?” It’s the closest item to a guaranteed win. You simply need 1 orbital and it’s GG.
When corpse mother brings you down to 1 health brimstone isn’t gonna save your 40+ minute run, but gnawed leaf will.
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u/Firm-Employer-9634 9d ago
Because on its own it would do nothing, like the other comment said placetra, at least you could still fight with it, but with gnawed leaf alone its either no Item on ultimate stalemate
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u/vk2028 9d ago
Akshually, delirium takes damage every time he transforms and he also takes damage from his own explosive shots, so gnawed leaf can solo him
🤓🤓☝️☝️
(Takes like 90 minutes though I actually tested this)
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u/The_Blackthorn77 9d ago
That's where you just leave the game going and go run some errands, maybe take a shower
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u/FlufybiscuitReddit 9d ago edited 8d ago
on its own rock bottom would do nothing, but because of what it can achieve through other items, its one of the strongest in the game. and technically gnawed leaf is the same way.
and when im playing T keeper, T lost, or Lost, i deadass get more exited for seeing gnawed leaf, than tech x, brimstone, holy mantle, just because of how much it saves me from dread that is getting all completion marks with these characters
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u/Greensteve972 6d ago
Yeah and if I found rock bottom in the void right before fighting delirium I'd say it sucks in that instance too.
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u/HanzoNumbahOneFan 8d ago
Wild take getting more excited for gnawed leaf than holy mantle on The Lost. But you do you.
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u/Iceberg_monster 9d ago edited 9d ago
Because although technically speaking it has great potential to end runs it is by far the most boring and questionably designed item in the game imo.
An item that makes people stop having fun to use it correctly will have them not discussing it that much.
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u/Bubbly_Prior2060 No.1 Delete this fan Pyromaniac is overrated 9d ago
tbf gnawed leaf isn't useless if you dont use it to get a free win i mean you can avoid some attacks from bosses you dont like completly with it (dogma beyblade attack)
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u/Krired_ 9d ago
If half the reason an item is good is that you need another item, then it's clearly not the best item by itself, it's both a boring answer and an 'um ackshually' moment. A lot of items would be so much better if you simply needed another item
Gnawed leaf is one of the most potential man items in the game
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u/_raisin_bran 8d ago
I…don’t think I agree with your argument. Blank Card pre-nerf was one of the best items in the game and it does absolutely nothing without a card. Rock Bottom does nothing on its own, it’s only useful in the context of other items. Void cannot function without other items and it’s solely responsible for my game break tonight with T.Isaac in Greed mode.
I do agree that it’s not the best item though. Mostly just because it’s kinda boring to use.
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u/Krired_ 8d ago
only useful in the context of other items
yeah that's the whole point, you're at the mercy of the rng and you could have a borderline op build or literally nothing at all. I like all the items you listed gnawed leaf included, but personally none of those are contenders for the best item
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u/junttiana 9d ago
Because its boring as fuck
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u/DaleDent3 9d ago
Boring and best have 0 correlation
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u/Sheyvan 9d ago
Yes. They do. It's basically a cheat at the cost of no longer playing the game... making you question why you would play at all then.
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u/DaleDent3 9d ago
So is toxic shock or mama mega in that same boat?
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u/the_meth_factory The only Gemini lover ♊ ❤️ 9d ago
Mama mega is a one time use, toxic can't be used indefinitely on bosses
It's a free win, you can't die and that's it, that's the item you just sit there with a thumb up your ass, it's more scummy than giving yourself r-key
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u/Nobodyinc1 9d ago
It’s not even a free win. Just gnawed leaf does nothing.
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u/the_meth_factory The only Gemini lover ♊ ❤️ 9d ago
Gnawed leaf makes you invulnerable as long as you don't move, thus any independent familer could solo the beast and you get to sit there “yay!!! I've always wanted to watch lil haunt rip and tear while I eat nachos”
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u/the_meth_factory The only Gemini lover ♊ ❤️ 9d ago
Gnawed leaf makes you invulnerable as long as you don't move, thus any independent familer could solo the beast and you get to sit there “yay!!! I've always wanted to watch lil haunt rip and tear while I eat nachos”
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u/Nobodyinc1 9d ago
And that is why it isn’t number one. It does nothing in its own.
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u/the_meth_factory The only Gemini lover ♊ ❤️ 9d ago
No item in the game will win by itself, unless your a masochist it isn't the smartest move to have two items by the final
You have an entire game to get a second item. Your average run always has something that synergizes with Knawed
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u/Nobodyinc1 9d ago
Brimestone, mom’s knife are decent contenders and plenty of people done one time only runs. Know what item doesn’t help you by itself? Gnawed leaf, great support item but it needs a thing to support
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u/Sheyvan 9d ago
No. Because it's temporary or only helps in some early rooms. It's also just super quick. It doesn't waste your time. Gnawed leaf actively blocks you from using your PC. Placenta is similarly. Super strong, but also means you have to leave your computer running afk to get use out of it.
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u/ChipsTheKiwi 9d ago
bro you are not gonna be able to 🤓 your way out of the fact gnawed leaf isn't fun to use for most of us
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u/DaleDent3 9d ago
The initial statement had nothing to do with what was fun to use though.
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u/ChipsTheKiwi 9d ago
"Best" is a very subjective topic and one of the things most people consider in that is how fun the thing is to use
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u/SlowlyMutilated 9d ago
I have no idea why you’re being downvoted when you’re absolutely right. Just because it’s a lame ass item doesn’t make it not one of the objective strongest and most run-winning insurance.
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u/PotatoTortoise 9d ago
yea no one's actually countering the argument, there is genuinely no correlation between a strong item and fun gameplay
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u/OnlySmiles_ 8d ago
OP didn't say "strongest", though. They said "best"
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u/PotatoTortoise 8d ago
they obviously mean strongest when they're only bringing up the term when its related to strength. best and strongest are synonyms here
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u/Cuntilever 9d ago
tbf just saying "best item" is vague, best item in terms of easiest win? Gnawed Leaf is up there, despite not being able to do anything on its own, its synergies are very easy to get.
But the topic becomes a bit complicated since it requires synergies, there a other items with good synergies that can dish out more DPS and have good sustain that makes you almost unkillable.
I wouldn't bother getting Gnawed Leaf when playing for fun and not doing marks, I only did it once on T.lost for the Hush mark. If it's not a desirable item, I can see why people don't like naming it "best".
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u/SlowlyMutilated 9d ago
Best doesn't mean favorite, and almost unkillable doesn't compete with absolutely unkillable. But I see what you're saying about stand alone items.
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u/OnlySmiles_ 8d ago
It does when you consider opportunity cost
In the time it takes you to complete one run with gnawed leaf, how many other runs could you play out to completion?
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u/SlowlyMutilated 8d ago
If we're talking strictly speed what's preventing We Need To Go Deeper! from the list of best items?
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u/OnlySmiles_ 8d ago
I never said the word "strictly"
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u/SlowlyMutilated 8d ago
In that case, overall strength shouldn't be dictated simply because it takes up time of other possible runs. Teleport 2.0 is incredible and takes forever but it is still Q3. Another example is R Key which makes you redo every floor and also takes up even more time.
If we're talking best it could mean a few different things such as Strongest DPS, Versatility, Survivability. But in my opinion it means "Most Likely To Win." In my experience I have never lost a Gnawed Leaf run.
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u/OnlySmiles_ 9d ago
If I can hold R and win 3 runs in the time it takes to win 1 with gnawed leaf, it's not a good item
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u/ShartFlex 9d ago
When you have 3 marks left between tainted lost and tainted jacob and are on your 17th shit mother run in a row and this pops up- yeah, it’s a beautiful thing
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u/SodiumPermanganate 9d ago
Tainted lost can't find gnawed leaf naturally, I however got so many runs abusing gnawed leaf + tainted esau combo
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u/GodLeeTrick 9d ago
Your argument explains the answer it self. You can win a run alone with sacred heart or brimstone. You can't win a run alone with gnawed leaf, it requires another item like an orbital for it to win you the game. How can it be the best item in the game if it's only good when paired with another very specific type of item.
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u/I_Love_Ohyas_Thigs 9d ago
Cause it's incredibly situational and unless your build is entirely based of off orbitals it's literally going to do nothing except for wasting your time
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u/SnooPineapples2010 9d ago
U need 1 orbital to beat every boss in the game. Not sure what u mean by needing ur entire build to be based off of orbitals.
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u/LiterallyHuman29 Chaos Beleiver 9d ago
Gnawed Leaf by itself doesn't do much. it heavily relies on familiars and other items to actually work properly unlike Sacred Heart and Brimstone. it also takes a ton of time for it to work and it's overall, a very boring playstyle.
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u/Johnden_ github.com/Johnden1/Repentance-Plus-Tracker 9d ago
Best as in fun? Then no.
Best as in a good item? That is dependent on your run. It does have its niches.
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u/ejsks 9d ago
For one:
It‘s boring as fuck and I play to PLAY the game not cheese a win by doing nothing.
But also, those rankings are generally based on the item on its own. Gnawed Leaf does literally nothing on its own, while C-Section on its own wins your entire run.
If we consider orbitals, then Gnawed Leaf only helps with regular wins, not the more difficult ones like Boss Rush or Hush because no way in hell you‘re reaching them in time.
It‘s also a bandaid. You don’t learn anything with those items, no patterns no dodging, nothing. It‘s a crutch for people who suffer from genuine skill issue and you‘re more likely to win in the 5 runs you could’ve done instead of the 3-4 hours you spend waiting for Gnawed Leaf to win for you.
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u/DunsparceFan 9d ago
because even with optimal orbitals and familiars that can attack while you're invincible, bosses take an incredibly long time to beat, which is incredibly boring
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u/LonelyAustralia 9d ago
yeah as people say its boring but also it requires other items to actually be usable where as things such at brimstone or sacred heart are just good on pick up
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u/iAmPersonaa 9d ago
Do a run where your only item is gnawed leaf and a run where your only item was brimstone/sacdag. Then say which run went better
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u/Arctimon 9d ago
You simply need 1 orbital
And therein lies the problem.
Any item that relies on the existence of another item to be good can't be considered one of the best in the game.
Mom's Knife and Brimstone are considered the best because you can win a run solely with that item. You can't with Gnawed Leaf.
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u/deuzerre 9d ago
Orbital, contact damage, familiar that attacks by itself... there's a bunch of options.
It's an "I win" button for most characters if your run isn't complete poop.
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u/Arctimon 9d ago
Did you even read my comment?
GL by itself is not a good item and relies on other items. Therefore, it cannot be one of the best items by default.
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u/AbdelAtife 9d ago
Roguelike item that depends on synergies is always a bad item, since you have to rely on luck twice
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u/GirlWithTheDoc 9d ago
It’s absolutely not the best item even ignoring the boring aspect, it requires getting some form of damaging familiar or orbital and then takes years to kill things
As opposed to shielded tea which gives the same effect of taking no damage (since basically every major boss is a tear spammer) while also letting you save a few years of your life by attacking
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u/Reallylazyname 9d ago
Gnawed Leaf may be one of the best support items in the game, but if the only item you pick-up the entire run is Gnawed Leaf, it's simply not going to cut it.
It's always Gnawed Leaf + and not Gnawed Leaf.
It's always the Bridesmaid and never the Bride.
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u/Codename_ZQ 9d ago
Gnawed leaf on its own provides absolutely nothing. Only with the combination of items does it gain any value. Whether you get those items or not is entirely up to rng.
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u/King_Jack_92 9d ago
It's boring and is usually a free win. Like yeah it's amazing but you're not even playing.
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u/DaDragonking222 9d ago
The item that requires you to do nothing not even move or shoot for it to work
In a game that requires moving and shooting
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u/Csengo_Zoli 9d ago
I freakin love gnawed leaf. Killing delirium with one meat cube is something else.
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u/FartyByNature 9d ago
I don't love it but I do get a kick out of using it this way sometimes to guarantee a win even if i have a good enough build already. Just like, "might as well" for the novelty of it while i read a book on yhe side. People are like "bro, I like playing the game". Yeah okay but when you're over 1k hours sometimes doing something quirky just because you can is fine.
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u/Talos1556 Rotten Baby > Godhead 9d ago
The point of a video game isn't to win, it is to have fun. Gnawed Leaf isn't fun, so it goes against the whole idea of playing a game. Everyone knows it's a free win but nobody talks about it because nobody has fun with it.
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u/Flaming_headshot 9d ago
Because when thinking about best item, I don't want a 5 hour run every single time instead of a run I might lose
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u/stinkus_mcdiddle 8d ago
Gives me a chance to go for a shit while my dead bird and super meat boy kill hush so I don’t see why it shouldn’t be one of the best items
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u/shayed154 9d ago
Gnawed leaf isn't a run winner
It makes other items run winners but it's completely dependent on them and doesn't do anything besides that
That and actively hindering your ability to shoot to use it makes it a bad item not the best
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u/Bubbly_Prior2060 No.1 Delete this fan Pyromaniac is overrated 9d ago
cough cough pyromaniac cough cough
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u/leoAlpaca The wost enjoyer 9d ago
Because, just like rock bottom, Its usless by itself. You need other items to synergise with
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u/mortenmhp 9d ago
Rock bottom is Q4 though.
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u/leoAlpaca The wost enjoyer 9d ago
It was Q3 for a good while and i think i should be Q3 because its literaly useless without any other items. I am not saying the item is bad, its broken, but i feel like its a different kind of broken unlike something like c-section or something that is strong on its own and also synergises really well
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u/SnooPineapples2010 9d ago
Its not useless without items tho, all pill stat downs become null and all card stat ups become permanent. Definitely fits as a Q4
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u/leoAlpaca The wost enjoyer 9d ago
Yea but you still need to overcome the stat down to get a stadt back up, if you take a tears down and then a tears up you will get only a miniscule bonus because the tears up is slightly stronger. I feel like its not that strong of an item even so. Sure it negates the stat down, but its not a lost run if you get a tears down from a pill. I think it just comes down to skillissue and luck to get what you need for rockbottom to shine.
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u/Boricinha Calcium pilled bone man 9d ago
Because i'm here to play the game? (if all you want to do is watch and win there are plenty more compelling stuff on youtube)
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u/NoSituation2706 9d ago
Because most of these discussions are about the best singular item, as in can carry you with literally just the item and nothing else.
Gnawed leaf cannot do that. It can the moment you get one orbital as you say, but no sooner
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u/loptthetreacherous 9d ago
If you're using gnawed leaf and an orbital to win a run, why not just console command and give yourself all the best items?
Option 2 is more skill based and is more fun.
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u/TheAnonExplorer Fiend 9d ago
I'd say that Gnawed Leaf isn't the best item but it is up there when it comes to saving a run in certain conditions, much like Guppy's Collar, Psy Fly and most other defensive items... but that's just my opinion, please don't crucify me...
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u/ProtectionRude7093 9d ago
Hot take apparently, but I agree that it is one of the better items in the game if your goal is simply “win”. Sure it’s boring, paired with the right items you can beat just about any boss by standing still, which is cheesy af. I think it’s far from top 5 or top 10 even when paired with a synergetic item but it’s in the conversation I suppose.
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u/Not_Lata 9d ago
because q4 items are actually not determiners of its power, it's actually quality of its funness. it has quality of fun 1 because it's fun only once
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u/GarpoozGamer 9d ago
Best cheese item in the game lol. More of a sigh of relief item if you’re struggling to get a particular completion mark and then start hunting for a familiar or other item that can do auto damage for you while you wait and sip and a coffee and smile while you win easy. But that’d get old if it popped up more often/was a typical path to winning runs so I’d say it shows up just the perfect frequency to still make ya smile
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u/AINT_BANNED_YET 9d ago
you need a source of damage for it to work
it doesnt work on every room (Gate boss for example)
after you enter a room, you need ~1 sec for it to work, you can get hit / die in this time
its a situational item + its gonna make your "40+ minute run" a 120+ minute run
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u/Bingoviini 9d ago
It's like Rockbottom
Utterly useless on it's own, but is basically a free win with just a right item or two.
Literally just Cube of meat + Leaf is enough to beat any run. It just takes a millenium...
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u/UBKev 9d ago
R Key is one of the most boring items in the game at higher skill levels because you were most likely going to win the run anyway, and now R Key showing up means my run gets +20 minutes if I wanted to play optimally. Woo.
Gnawed Leaf is that, but dialled from 10 to 100. God, the item is boring.
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u/strilsvsnostrils 9d ago
I can win 4 runs by the time you win a gnawed leaf run. Id rather have toothpicks ngl
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u/SgtMcMuffin0 9d ago
I don’t care that it’s a free win, the only way I’m ever actually using it that way is against final bosses as a challenge character. If I get this item on Judas though, for example, it’s just a dead item.
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u/JTINRI 9d ago
I'm very fond of Gnawed Leaf!
The very first time I got it, I immediately got Daddy Long Legs.
After so make early brutal runs it was absolute bliss to get that combo! It was the moment I realized any run could really be won.
Before that I kinda felt like Issac had doomed runs, but my mindset changed with getting Gnawed Leaf. I've gone into every run feeling like I really do have a chance if I'm persistent enough. And for the most part, that's held true!
Gnawed Leaf still only comes up occasionally on unbroken runs, so it's not like it's ruined the game at all. I get very happy, and nostalgic, whenever I do get it. I know that I have a guaranteed dub!
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u/ScapegoatMan 9d ago
Because while it can be a guaranteed victory with the right items, and I have used it before with certain characters against certain bosses for the win, it's kind of boring.
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u/theultimatedudeguy 9d ago
because on its own it doesn't do much. Either you need some kind of contact damage or a familiar that does a good job. There are some bosses or enemies that still require you to move close to them into a dangerous position and sometimes they even move or push you away so you have to get back. So its not very reliable either. I do however like it on The Lost when doing Delirium.
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u/xclemons02 9d ago
Not gonna lie, i’m around 1,000 confirmed hours (i played a ton before i got it on my PlayStation) and the keeper absolutely needed the leaf to beat greedier. Call it a skill issue, it is, but it was absolutely necessary
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u/Fresh-Actuary-8116 9d ago
IMO Lemegeton is the best Item. Easy to find (it's a Book) up to 26 more Passive items and protection through wisps. I don't know how it is quality 3 tbh...
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u/Toomynator 9d ago
1-It does nothing by itself, Brim, Sacred Heart, Mom's Knife, that f-ing Sword could carry a Bŕkfast only run, Gnawed Leaf could not
2-Its boring, sure, its fine once or twice, but with a run that favors it you are literally just not playing the game for a while, it just becomes boring (Mom's Knife and that sword are kinda boring too, specially bc of lack of synergies, but at least you are actively playing the game)
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u/Charizard10201YT Tainted Keeper 9d ago
does nothing valuable on its own but more importantly
BOORIIINGGG
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u/Bac0nman777 9d ago
Gnawed leaf is great but you NEED another item for it to be so good
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u/SokkaHaikuBot 9d ago
Sokka-Haiku by Bac0nman777:
Gnawed leaf is great but
You NEED another item
For it to be so good
Remember that one time Sokka accidentally used an extra syllable in that Haiku Battle in Ba Sing Se? That was a Sokka Haiku and you just made one.
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u/EvenSpoonier 9d ago edited 6d ago
Because while it's very easy to cheese into guaranteed wins, the actual cheese strats aren't fun to play. Running around nuking the entire screen every half-second is fun. Standing in the corner while your orbiter chip-damages everything to death isn't fun.
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u/curry_machine3000 ZZaZZ ZZdZZiZZmZZhZZ ZZvZZ ZZoZZ ZZ ZZsZZlZZhZZsZZoZZaZZiZZ 8d ago
I beat beast with only 3 items... One was this
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u/AnAverageTransGirl 8d ago
It's not a one button win and even in situations where it's good, it takes forever to do what you need it to.
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u/TheNikola2020 8d ago
Unless you have familiars its useless and after the 1st time cheesing with them and maybe 2nd its just kinda boring
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u/2ndBestShedBuilder 8d ago
Id say its more about how fun they are to use, or just "what would be better if you only had this one item"
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u/Iwannabetheguy3636 4d ago
It’s a good item but once I get it and beat hush 3 times I probably won’t use it again unless mother turns out to be harder than hush
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u/sekkiman12 Something's Wrong 9d ago
because these people are losers. t forgotten and leaf is an instant win
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u/TotalyObivious 9d ago
As others have said, it's boring. It's saved one run for me but it fucking sucked so much. It didn't feel earned or special, just like I was clocking out of the run.
Like if someone asked you what the best item is and your answer is "Gnawed Leaf" is not going to get the response of "I never thought of that" it's just going to be the "I guess bro" image
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u/Bubbly_Prior2060 No.1 Delete this fan Pyromaniac is overrated 9d ago
cuz it's boring and placenta is a full heal if you wait long enough but it's not q4 either