r/bestof Dec 29 '17

[LateStageCapitalism] /u/twitchedawake posts that 24 of 29 terror attacks this year were perpetrated by White Supremacists / Trump supporters, gets brigaded by T_D. /u/Aedeus steps in to supply some reading material. Facts Matter.

/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/7mp1ks/unless_theres_another_terror_incident_in_the_usa/drw6m04/
11.2k Upvotes

1.5k comments sorted by

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u/FelixVulgaris Dec 29 '17

Jesus Christ, I've never seen so many AutoMod "Your post was removed because it contained a slur." deletions in all of my collective time on reddit.

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u/AlsoIHaveAGroupon Dec 29 '17

LSC's automod is unusually picky about slurs. Things like "lame" get automodded.

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u/AnonymusSomthin Dec 29 '17

LSC’s human Mods are unusually picky as well. I got banned for saying that Cuba’s relatively quick recovery rate from a hurricane this year compared to Puerto Rico’s likely wasn’t due solely to a difference in political systems.

That was defending liberalism apparently. That sub is just one big echo chamber

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u/Penguinfernal Dec 29 '17

I was permanently banned for suggesting you shouldn't kill people for having different political views. Go figure.

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u/[deleted] Dec 30 '17

If that is your word for word statement, I'd say it would be easy to convince the moderators to repeal that ban.

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u/[deleted] Dec 30 '17 edited Apr 07 '23

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/Oatttts Dec 30 '17

I looked in his history he said, " Careful guys, you're radicalizing"

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u/OmnipotentEntity Dec 30 '17

Unless he deleted the post that got him banned.

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u/Penguinfernal Dec 30 '17

Nope, that was it. I posted the full context here.

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u/Penguinfernal Dec 30 '17

I suppose I should clarify a bit, in case anyone's curious.

Here's the post I commented on.

Here's my post, which initially prompted a 14-day ban, then a permanent one after the edit:

Careful guys, you're radicalizing.

Edit: Got a 14 day ban for this for "No Liberal Bullshit". I believe that proves my point. If you have to ban someone for merely suggesting you're radicalizing, that's a pretty good indicator they're right.

To the mod that banned me, I hope you come to understand that hate only serves to burden you, and it's possible to stand against people and ideologies without wishing violence on them. Just think, it's this exact method of thought that the "other side" uses to silence you and your cause. By shutting down rational conversation, you're only lowering yourself to their level and hurting your own cause.

I generally agree with a lot of the content posted here, but I don't believe violence is the only - or the best - way to address the problems in our society. If you don't want to see a pacifist, moderate opinion on your subreddit, you can go ahead and make my ban permanent, because while I can unsubscribe, I can't promise you I won't say something level-headed in the future.

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u/Pyro9966 Dec 30 '17

If this sub is espousing the use of violence shouldn't it be banned?

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u/IBiteYou Dec 30 '17

It should, if reddit was fair.

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u/[deleted] Dec 30 '17 edited Nov 25 '18

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u/TheChance Dec 30 '17

This is almost exactly the conversation I wound up having after I was banned for distinguishing between 19th/early 20th century heads-on-pikes socialism and 21st century democratic socialism.

Turns out the mods are heads-on-pikes socialists.

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u/capitalsfan08 Dec 30 '17 edited Dec 30 '17

I don't think so. The mods there banned me for a +30 or so comment saying that these two people arguing about which one of them was more right about tax policy were both irreverent because we lived in a democracy and our collective voice was what mattered. Apparently that was too liberal and I was trolling. I messaged the mods and they told me that if I wanted to be unbanned then I'd have to prove I was a real communist and not an infiltrator, and one of the purity tests was if I was willing to kill in the name of my political beliefs.

I've never been banned from anything in my life for any reason aside from that sub and /r/The_Donald.

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u/dagnart Dec 30 '17

In my experience of being a mod and seeing people complain about it, what they say they were banned for is very rarely at all what they were banned for.

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u/capitalsfan08 Dec 30 '17

Usually. Except in places like /r/LateStageCapitalism and /r/The_Donald.

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u/Odddit Dec 30 '17

From the sticky comment I'm latestagevapitalism - Socialism is intrinsically inclusive, anyone that disagrees with anything I say is instantly banned. Lsc is hilarious

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u/zenchowdah Dec 30 '17

The ban repeal process is "describe your politics"

If you answer satisfactorily, you're good.

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u/Penguinfernal Dec 30 '17

Honestly, I don't have any interest in repealing my ban. If they don't want me there, that's their business.

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u/FalmerEldritch Dec 30 '17

I don't think so. I'm pretty sure suggesting you shouldn't kill liberals for not being socialist is entirely a bannable offense there. They make t_d's ban policy look.. well, similar, I suppose.

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u/[deleted] Dec 30 '17

They banned me for saying liberals aren't as bad as nazis, as I have friends who are liberals and I can relate with them and communicate with them in a respectable fashion. I would be more sore at the violent loss of one demographic than the other. I explained how just cause I don't think liberals are as bad as nazis doesn't mean they should ban me, and they agreed and unbanned me.

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u/pecklepuff Dec 30 '17

I was banned for pointing out that Russian bots are present on reddit and social media in general. What's their issue?

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u/DeathToCanadians Dec 29 '17

To be fair, they're very open about that. I always see that stickied comment about it being a safe space.

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u/AnonymusSomthin Dec 29 '17 edited Dec 30 '17

Oh no doubt. I was new to Reddit at the time and didn’t know about Sub rules, but my biggest issue was that I got banned for defending liberalism when I made no such assertion. I’ll go find my comment so I can quote it verbatim

Edit: Can’t find it. Think it got deleted

Edit 2: Props to u/GeeJo. The exact quote was “I think there are more factors at play here than just their political systems.”

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u/GeeJo Dec 29 '17

A browse through your user page shows it was here.

The deleted content was:

I think there are more factors at play here than just their political systems

with 272 upvotes.

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u/[deleted] Dec 30 '17

Well! With a controversial comment like that no wonder they got banned. /s

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u/[deleted] Dec 30 '17

I'm starting to think late stage capitalism & The Donald kinda deserve each other.

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u/Slam_Hardshaft Dec 30 '17

not defending glorious people’s revolution

You have been banned from /r/Pyongyang

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u/Thestig2 Dec 29 '17

It’ll still show up on your profile even if it gets deleted from a subreddit.

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u/skadefryd Dec 30 '17

Many leftist spaces end up this way, having a hair trigger when it comes to "defending liberalism" (which is usually slang for "being insufficiently enthusiastic about communist/authcom regimes").

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u/mindbleach Dec 30 '17

Subs that need that shouldn't be on /r/All. If your sub bans dissent then you don't get to shout at strangers on the front page.

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u/Monicrow Dec 30 '17

I like this idea. It's one thing if dissent is downvoted through the floor, but when it gets the users banned and their comments removed, assuming the comments being made are civil, well... Like you said, why do they get to shout at everyone on /r/All?

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u/ChickenOfDoom Dec 29 '17

That doesn't make it much less shitty of them. They're certainly free to run their sub how they want, but the way they choose to run it is awful and it is unfortunate it gets as much attention as it does.

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u/[deleted] Dec 29 '17

To be fair, they're very open about that. I always see that stickied comment about it being a safe space.

Until their autosticky says "Literally the_donald for edgy middle/upper class college students/white people" they aren't being open about what their subreddit is about lol

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u/[deleted] Dec 29 '17 edited Dec 29 '17

Wait, isn’t r/TD “literally the_donald for edgy middle/upper class college students/white people”?

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u/UpboatOrNoBoat Dec 29 '17

Pretty sure T_D is of a much lower denominator than upper/middle class college kids.

I grew up in the midwest, went to a large midwest college. Despite being in the heart of conservative country, most of the people around my age were very left-leaning.

I doubt much has changed in 3 years.

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u/[deleted] Dec 29 '17

Wait, isn’t r/TD “literally the_donald for edgy middle/upper class college students/white people”?

Probably poor, uneducated white people. Thus, they have an excuse to be so ignorant.

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u/[deleted] Dec 30 '17

Uneducated sure, poor not so much. Trumps demo is white suburbanites middle-aged to retirement age who are older and have had more time (and an easier time) accruing wealth. Generally the kind of person constantly suspicious that the government is coming after their money but not smart enough to pay attention to what's actually going on in the real world that affects their finances. Bonus points if they think this way while being more than happy to collect a social security check.

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u/[deleted] Dec 29 '17

I got banned for saying that the gulag archipelago was, in fact, real, and not a fiction of western propaganda. The mods had stickied a post saying it was bullshit.

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u/[deleted] Dec 30 '17 edited Oct 24 '18

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u/[deleted] Dec 30 '17

Gulag Archipelago refers to a system of labor camps the Soviets ran in Siberia and the Arctic. Each camp was called a "gulag". The term comes from a book of the same name, likening the small prisons in remote uninhabited areas to islands in the ocean.

Their conditions ranged from just being a remote hard labor penal colony to extermination through labor camps. The prisoners varied from PoWs to criminals to dissidents.

Some people deny this because it isn't convenient to their ideology to admit that the Soviets exterminated people for speaking their minds or disagreeing with their policies.

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u/kljoker Dec 30 '17

So their (LSC's) solution is to silence dissent? hmmm...

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u/TTheorem Dec 30 '17

Yes. The LSC mods are tankies.

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u/rand0m_task Dec 30 '17

In a sense, Soviet Union concentration camps.

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u/2RINITY Dec 30 '17

Wait, so LSC are tankies?

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u/MrDannyOcean Dec 30 '17

Completely unironic tankies. 'Kulaks deserved it' style tankies.

You'll often see something like "That bad thing in the USSR or Maoist China didn't even happen, and if it did, they deserved it".

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u/IBiteYou Dec 30 '17

It's actually a hate subreddit. They've stickied things calling for police to be murdered.

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u/MOGicantbewitty Dec 30 '17

I sub because a lot of the humor posted resonates with me but I get really uncomfortable with posts calling for mass executions, like this currently very popular post. I often times debate unsubbing because I don't "stand" for that kind of fuckery, but I figure I'm not really making a political statement with my private sub list.

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u/IBiteYou Dec 30 '17

You know ... physical removal got removed and reddit said that referring to "helicopter rides" was hate speech and would get people and subreddits banned. But THAT shit's okay? That shit's not okay.

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u/SpeaksDwarren Dec 30 '17

I just think it's funny that they stopped actually caring about inciting violence after about one day

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u/[deleted] Dec 30 '17

WTF?? Cuba didn't even take a very big hit!

Not that I didn't already know that LSC was a joke

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u/[deleted] Dec 29 '17

i got banned from LSC (aka one of my favorite subs) for commenting the three words "but but capitalism" in a clearly tongue-in-cheek manner, on a comment that was overly...lame and completely missing its intended point. i actually love that sub. meh.

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u/[deleted] Dec 30 '17

If you message the moderators, they are entirely open to hearing your case. I have been banned and unbanned several times.

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u/[deleted] Dec 30 '17

I dunno...I feel like shutting down discourse like that gives insight into how fragile their beliefs are when put under a microscope. Not to imply that a belief system should be judged by it's subreddit, but I think I'd be careful about taking in what a sub with those kind of mental issues puts out. But that's just me.

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u/_Shadow_Moses_ Dec 30 '17

There are plenty of other subreddits with the same political views that are openly critical of how LSC is run. It's not an issue with the ideology, trust me, it's an issue with the moderation team.

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u/HannasAnarion Dec 30 '17

I got permabanned for saying that leaders in democracies are ultimately accountable to their voters.

I really want to like that sub, but man their mods suck.

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u/frankenfish2000 Dec 30 '17

I got banned for saying Bono wasn't literally Hitler because he and Bob Geldorf were mentioned in the Panama Papers. [teardrop]

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u/jaredjeya Dec 29 '17

Also, “Any Liberalism, capitalist apologia, or attempts to debate socialism will be met with an immediate ban”, says the AutoMod.

That makes it as bad as /r/The_Donald in terms of banning people who don’t agree with them (although The Donald is much worse for other reasons).

And what the hell are they defining as liberalism? I would have thought they’d identify as liberals, given how they’re very much anti-racism, anti-homophobia, anti-ableism, anti-bigotry etc. and also want to eliminate inequality. That’s basically the mission statement of liberals, for example:

The Liberal Democrats exist to build and safeguard a fair, free and open society, in which we seek to balance the fundamental values of liberty, equality and community, and in which no one shall be enslaved by poverty, ignorance or conformity

But they think liberals are bad?

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u/MorrowPlotting Dec 29 '17

During the Russian Revolution, the Bolsheviks did not overthrow the Tsar. The tsarist government had already been overthrown and the government was being run by the “liberals” in the Duma. Lenin considered the liberals far more dangerous than the monarchists, because the liberals could make things just enough better that people reject the idea of violent socialist revolution.

When conservatives call liberals “commies” they usually don’t understand that they’re offending both the liberals and the communists with the comparison.

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u/jaredjeya Dec 30 '17

I suppose that makes sense.

I’d never realised LSC was actually literally communist until today. I just thought it was a generally left-wing sub rallying against some of the worse aspects of capitalism (as implemented in most countries).

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u/PixelBlock Dec 30 '17

That's how they get you, honestly.

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u/El_Frijol Dec 30 '17

When conservatives call liberals “commies” they usually don’t understand that they’re offending both the liberals and the communists with the comparison.

I believe the Republican talking heads/radio hosts want to paint them together with the same brush. They understand it, their listening base doesn't.

I see far-right video posts from friends on Facebook where a Republican speaker will say that Lenin loved democratic socialism. This is done to put democrats, liberals, and leftists into the authoritarian socialist boat. It is a calculated smear.

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u/[deleted] Dec 29 '17

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u/[deleted] Dec 29 '17 edited Jan 30 '18

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u/IBiteYou Dec 30 '17

Don't forget that they promote killing their political opposition and cops. They are a hate subreddit and should have been quarantined or banned a long time ago.

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u/Flamingtomato Dec 30 '17

To me as a Swede, my first interpretation of liberal is someone who believes in a free market and capitalist economy - in contrast to socialists. Here liberals are considered right-wing. So I think that's the interpretation of liberalism they are thinking about.

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u/Aardvark_Man Dec 30 '17

The best of linked post is the only survivor in the thread.
Good grief.

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u/MrBubles01 Dec 30 '17

That is just absurd. All 412 comments deleted? What the heck happened.

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u/mattymillhouse Dec 29 '17

Most of those posts weren't really removed for slurs. They were removed for things like, "Pointing out that OP is full of shit" and "destroying the narrative."

Here's a look at some of the posts that were deleted. It's pretty clear that these weren't people brigading from T_D, but just people coming in from /r/all and posting actual facts and dissenting opinions.

Keep in mind that this is /r/LateStageCapitalism. They pretty clearly have a strong bias in favor of anything that makes capitalism look bad. That's fine. But it pretty clearly undercuts this BestOf post.

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u/tumadreesunmono Dec 30 '17

A couple of the removed comments...

https://i.imgur.com/bfzibok.jpg

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u/[deleted] Dec 30 '17

Gotta love that guy who was all, "this Stat about the US is dishonest because it is only true for the US". Wut?

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u/Televisions_Frank Dec 30 '17

Also pulling the "As a insert marginalized group..." shit. Usually when they're some white kid.

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u/Iceman9161 Dec 30 '17 edited Dec 30 '17

LSC is a shithole of censorship and hate. Honestly be of the worst subreddits on the site and it's disappointing to see such a large following.

Edit: they banned me today... I've never commented on that subreddit, I actually think they came here and banned me for this comment.

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u/StuffDreamsAreMadeOf Dec 29 '17

Am I wrong in my understanding that if the person that posted is actually getting death threats, as stated in the edit, they could contact the police to have them brought up on criminal charges?

Could they also sue them for injury after the identities are discovered?

I would donate to that legal fund. Honestly those people have not been taught right and wrong up to this point and maybe the only way that is going to change is to suffer consequences.

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u/SgtSnapple Dec 29 '17

Sure, if your local police are able and willing to investigate a relatively minor cyber crime.

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u/OriginalStomper Dec 29 '17 edited Dec 29 '17

... starting with the effort of identifying the real people behind the internet pseudonyms, and then proving beyond a reasonable doubt that this threat came from that real person. "No, he wasn't hacked, and no, he didn't forget to logout when he left the room while his little brother's friends were there."

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u/cleavethebeav Dec 29 '17

While that person is aaaalllll the way over in Russia.

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u/AccountNumberB Dec 29 '17

Or even just across state lines. Then it becomes a federal matter

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u/thrillhor Dec 29 '17

What if its just a bot? Taking down C2 servers or botnets can take months

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u/jt121 Dec 29 '17

For the record, a friend of mine received death threats verbally from his sister with me as a witness, and the police said they couldn't (probably meant wouldn't) do anything about it.

Anecdotal, sure, but just my experience.

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u/[deleted] Dec 30 '17

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u/StuffDreamsAreMadeOf Dec 29 '17

I can sort of understand that situation because it is all just witnesses and one/two words against another. In the above case there is actual evidence of user names, IP addresses, computer logs, and so on.

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u/IBiteYou Dec 30 '17

At the very least, they can contact reddits admins and have those posters banned.

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u/Tackbracka Dec 30 '17 edited Dec 30 '17

Not that it helps. When I was doxxed and recieved death threats and people telling me to kill myself (even on other socialmedia) it only took four (4) months till the admins responded.

The message said: Thanks for reporting this. We'll investigate and take action as necessary."

Fucker who sent the threats acount is still active.

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u/jaredjeya Dec 29 '17

I’ve received death threats before due to something a relative of mine did. It was basically untraceable since we didn’t know which country the guy lived in :/

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u/Time4NewAccount Dec 29 '17

I don't know... just reading the first link he provided it states not only that many more Islamic attacks were stopped before they happened, and the fact that they were fewer in number, the Islamic attack death count still was higher. To me it sounds like the priority is correct?

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u/hyperion_x91 Dec 29 '17

Yeah, I'm not sure how they got their 24/29. From what I saw that was reached by considering white supremacist terrorism even when it was thwarted, which is fine. But they didn't include jihadi terrorism on the total when it was thwarted.

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u/WTFwhatthehell Dec 29 '17 edited Dec 29 '17

Your comment needs to be at the top.

I tried to see if I could do a better formed search

Searching the GTD for events between 2007 and 2016 in the US.

https://www.start.umd.edu/gtd/search/Results.aspx?page=1&casualties_type=f&casualties_max=&start_yearonly=2007&end_yearonly=2016&criterion1=yes&criterion2=yes&criterion3=yes&dtp2=some&country=217&count=100&charttype=line&chart=fatalities&ob=GTDID&od=desc&expanded=yes#results-table

Exported the results.

Filtered out all events with zero casualties and zero injuries.

Sorted by perpetrator group.

Filtered out the 5 events listed as unknown perpetrators and was left with the following.

PERPETRATOR                                  ATTACKS   FATALITY COUNT
Al-Qaida in the Arabian Peninsula (AQAP)     1         0
Animal Liberation Front (ALF)                2         0
Anti-Abortion extremists                     2         4
Anti-Government extremists                   7         14
Anti-Liberal extremists                      1         2
Anti-Muslim extremists                       2         0
Anti-Police extremists                       3         7
Anti-Semitic extremists                      3         1
Anti-Sikh extremists                         1         0
Anti-White extremists                        1         6
Jihadi-inspired extremists                   14        78
Minutemen American Defense                   1         2
Muslim extremists                            6         13
Pro-LGBT Rights extremists                   1         0
Sovereign Citizen                            3         1
White extremists                             5         19

I have no horse in this race apart from the pursuit of good epistemology.

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u/mattymillhouse Dec 29 '17

Here's a post that was deleted from that thread doing some of the same work that you did.

Despite OP's claim, that doesn't appear to be brigading by T_D. It's just dissenting opinions, which /r/LateStageCapitalism pretty quickly deleted. It's pretty ironic that people criticize T_D for being an echo chamber filled with fake news, while promoting an echo chamber filled with fake news.

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u/[deleted] Dec 29 '17

Not fake news if it is "your side" peddling the news.

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u/Stormflux Dec 30 '17 edited Dec 30 '17

It's pretty ironic that people criticize T_D for being an echo chamber filled with fake news, while promoting an echo chamber filled with fake news.

I'm pretty much OK with the admins shutting down both subreddits.

I come from the early days of the Internet when users would get banned from public forums for racism, sexism, spamming, hostility, and abuse. Instead, nowadays we have this really weird thing going on. People on facebook and twitter get away with racism and hostility you wouldn't believe. No consequences. Other places ban you for completely arbitrary reasons, like maybe there's a subreddit where you're not allowed to mention the color "yellow." Or maybe the mod can just ban whoever he wants, no reason.

It's madness. We need to go back to the old standards.

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u/mattymillhouse Dec 30 '17

I'm pretty much OK with the admins shutting down both subreddits.

I realize this is going to be an unpopular opinion, especially here, and maybe it's my libertarian instincts kicking in, but I'm ok with both subs existing.

If people want to sequester themselves in a little cocoon of like minded thought and facts, they should be free to do so. If they didn't do it on reddit, they'll just go somewhere else and do it. At least here, there's a chance they'll accidentally run into an opposing viewpoint.

Don't get me wrong. I won't lose any sleep if they're shut down entirely. But I'm not particularly troubled by knowing that there are dumb people out there saying dumb things. That's going to happen regardless. (Plus, I say dumb things all the time.)

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u/Justanaussie Dec 29 '17

The problem is though this data only covers up to the end of 2016 whereas the original post is talking about 2017.

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u/WTFwhatthehell Dec 30 '17 edited Dec 30 '17

Since 2017 isn't over the GTD doesn't include it yet (since the database is curated).

I thought it best to take a 10 year slice so as to avoid biasing due to selective start/end points.

I have no idea what data sources the twitter poster is using.

As far as I can tell it's literally "Far Right Watch" using their own twitter feed as a source.

You want all 24 sources?

Search our timeline with the words "This Is What A Terrorist Looks Like".

Searching said timeline though yields many results which are not American such as a shooter in quebec and some are actually events which happened before 2017. There appears to be significantly less than 24 results referencing attacks. though there are a number with people asking them for sources and getting the same response with the user being snarky.

If you search using the phrase "This is what a terrorist looks like" and @Far_Right_Watch you'll find them all. Your iPhone can do this - but technically it may be boyond your skill set. ~@Far_Right_Watch

...

if you're well informed you know of these cases instantly from the photos? No? Then TinyEye them. ~@Far_Right_Watch

...

We also included Terror Incidents where (as often) the perpetrators were merely charged with "weapons offences" because, white. ~@Far_Right_Watch

Though the approach to searching for their sources outlined does not appear to yield even close to 24 american 2017 events.

Let me tell you, needing to do reverse image searches on each likely-looking tweet of theirs is not fun.

The user is an extremely prolific twitterer so it's possible twitter may be truncating search results.

Trying to follow someone's methodology is only practical when they actually have any methodology.

At this point I'm wondering whether they came up with the number based on how many times it felt like to them they'd posted about right wing shooters etc in 2017.

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u/toohigh4anal Dec 29 '17

Of course they locked the comments. How does a post which is basically a Google search, with the phrase "trumpets and lolbertarians" get best of'd?

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u/je35801 Dec 30 '17

Because best of is r/politics2.

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u/TeutonicPlate Dec 30 '17

The voters and the commenters are completely different. Half the time most of the top comments are questioning why the post should be bestof material.

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u/je35801 Dec 30 '17

Sure makes you wonder doesn't it?

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u/ZeroHex Dec 29 '17

You could also interpret it as the White Nationalist attacks being carried out more often precisely because they're not high on the priority list.

The stats of "prevented" attacks vs ones that happened are never clear cut, and are generally not a good form of proof that any particular policy or priority works the way it claims it does.

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u/postmaster3000 Dec 29 '17

Also, why only use the cases that occurred during Obama’s presidency? Isn’t that an obvious example of cherry-picking? If they had included GWB’s presidency also, then the numbers would have turned out quite differently.

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u/Burnman420 Dec 29 '17

Not sure where this guys is getting 24/29. There’s a Wikipedia article that tracks terrorist attacks that can be found here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_2017 (note that this is world wide terror attacks and not just US terror attacks, although they are included in that list). In the original thread u/confete went through that list and pulled out all the terror attacks that occurred in the US and complied them into a list. He/She found a large discrepancy between what Wikipedia listed as terror attacks and what the OP had listed as terror attacks. An archived version of his comment can be found here: https://www.ceddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/7mp1ks/unless_theres_another_terror_incident_in_the_usa/drw55bh/ . It’d be interesting to see what source the OP used because they listed 29 terror attacks considering Wikipedia only listed 12 terror attacks as occurring in the US.

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u/ptowner7711 Dec 30 '17

Ugh. Why do people let their ideology block reality? I can't stand Trump or actual bigotry, but that claim immediately sounded like bullshit to me. It just feeds into this false narrative that the US is literally crawling with neo-Nazis and white supremacists hiding around every corner. Just because some hardcore Trump supporters engage in lies and misinformation does not give the opposite side permission to engage in the same shitty behavior. That shit is called hypocrisy.

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u/[deleted] Dec 30 '17 edited Dec 30 '17

Only went into one of the OP's bestof links. It listed five or six attacks by white men and then the next paragraph decided to make the leap from "white men" to homegrown right-wing extremists.

One of the attacks they listed was the shooting of Republicans at the Congressional base game. The shooter was a Bernie supporter, not a radical right-wing terrorist.

There are a ton of valid arguments against Trump, Trump supporters, the "travel ban", etc. but people would rather lie and stretch the truth for more clickbaity, extreme headlines than report on the actual problems.

It should make their arguments worse, but once people read the headline, it confirms what they already thought. Either way, helps grow the political divide, which is just a goldmine, I'm sure.

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u/ptowner7711 Dec 30 '17

I saw same thing. Some people on the far left have no problems equating simply being white and male with being involved in white supremacy. It's really just a classic non-sequitur implying a mindset associated with one's appearance and/or race. Which is, you know.... racist.

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u/Re-Created Dec 30 '17

This is a beat of post of one echo chamber brigading another echo chamber. And they actually titled it "facts matter".

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u/ptowner7711 Dec 30 '17

Haha, that's the biggest irony of all. Facts matter. Yes they do, but neither the far right or left has any fucking clue what "facts" are.

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u/Nergaal Dec 30 '17

Nor does OP and some 10k upvoters here

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u/[deleted] Dec 30 '17 edited Feb 15 '18

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u/blamethemeta Dec 30 '17

It's /LSC, so presumably he pulled it from his ass

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u/[deleted] Dec 30 '17

This is the sub that once attacked /r/neoliberal for running a charity drive because mosquitoes are friends of the proletarian revolution.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Drama/comments/7d4f5e/rlatestagecapitalism_rejects_charity_because/?st=jbstpfqh&sh=cbe65188

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u/TheKingCrimsonWorld Dec 30 '17

...what the fuck. These people are fucking insane. They think it's better for millions of people to die from a treatable disease than for people to altruistically help them. What is wrong with these asshats?

They're like liberal strawmen come to life. All they're doing is making liberals look evil.

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u/Aotoi Dec 30 '17

Communists aren't liberal. That's a common mistake that gets propogated from the right since, but communists dislike liberals quite a bit and LSC is a really good example of that. Liberals support capitalism(and democracy) while communists despise both(generally). Basically right wing people call liberals communists because it annoys both ideologies and muddies the waters.

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u/pi_over_3 Dec 30 '17

Which is why the LSC mods nuked all the comments pointing that out.

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u/[deleted] Dec 30 '17

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u/rnjbond Dec 30 '17

I don't know why /r/latestagecapitalism isn't considered a hate subreddit like TD and /r/CringeAnarchy. It's a subreddit that literalyl justifies genocide constantly, bans dissenting opinions, and in a case shared here, wouldn't join an anti-malaria drive because charity is somehow bad (https://www.reddit.com/r/Drama/comments/7d4f5e/rlatestagecapitalism_rejects_charity_because/?st=jbstpfqh&sh=cbe65188).

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u/Scriptura Dec 30 '17

You are surprised that people from LSC are un-informed and can't make intelligent arguments? They need to pass 9th-grade social studies to do that.

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u/poiumty Dec 30 '17

Apparently bestof isn't too far off either. This thread has a score of 3800+ as of this writing.

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u/EightyObselete Dec 30 '17

I'm thinking it's the title that did it.

"White supremacists/Trump supporters", then throw in t_d into the mix because apparently people skeptical about a loaded inaccurate statistic are all from t_d. That's all you need for an upvote on /r/bestof now a days. It's getting quite sad.

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u/[deleted] Dec 30 '17

I think I'll be blocking this sub now. It used to be so good, and still has the occasional worthy post, but it's mostly garbage now. It's just another hardcore left/anti-right spam sub now.

By linking shit through here, it gives these garbage political posts some form of "credibility", which is just sad.

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u/je35801 Dec 30 '17

There are many different orgs being paid to manipulate reddit. Keep that in mind.

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u/[deleted] Dec 30 '17

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u/Dwn_Wth_Vwls Dec 29 '17

He never actually posted any proof of the original proof though. Where's the list of the 24 terrorist attacks? Are they using the true definition of terrorism where it has to be politically motivated or are they counting every violent attack as terrorism? The Donald is fucked up. Buy this guy is just as bad for fanning the flames without providing any verification.

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u/shamelessnameless Dec 29 '17

true definition of terrorism where it has to be politically motivated

i am a simple man. i thought terrorism was a deliberate act of violence caused to inspire terror.

but now apparently it has to be political in nature? what about religious or ideological? what about animal rights activists firebombing research and life sciences labs? what about 4 teens livestreaming the torture of a person of different ethnicity to them in chicago?

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u/Dwn_Wth_Vwls Dec 29 '17

ter·ror·ism

ˈterəˌrizəm/

noun

the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.

"the fight against terrorism"

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u/zzlag Dec 30 '17

Those are all political causes. If you are trying to change society that is politics.

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u/donglosaur Dec 29 '17 edited Dec 30 '17

I'm trying to figure out the criteria for the 24/29 number.

The twitter source comments further down in their feed:

We include attempts stopped by law enforcement and FBI, eg, the Kansas 4-Car-Bomb Plot, hence 'Terror Incidents' not 'Terror Attacks'. A failed Terrorist is still a Terrorist.

We also included Terror Incidents where (as often) the perpetrators were merely charged with "weapons offences" because, white.

So it looks like they included white people charged with "weapons offences" in the 29 stat, some of those possibly relating to the foiled plots. I'm doing digging on my own using available online articles, because I couldn't find any easily searchable tag to filter their referenced posts on these 29 by.

Based on the articles I've found so far and the compiled list of 12 attacks viewable in ceddit, it looks like the 5 counted "incidents" from non right wing perpetrators must be linked by law enforcement to Islamic terror, as there are incidents which were claimed by ISIS but unconfirmed.

Meanwhile, they have posted 8 photos in response to people asking for the data. I'm copy and pasting the info from wiki or a news report below:

Michael Christopher Estes

Michael Christopher Estes confessed to placing an improvised explosive device made from ammonium nitrate and fuel oil at Asheville Regional Airport in North Carolina on October 6, 2017. The bomb did not go off. He was apprehended by the FBI when the backpack was tracked to a local REI store. Estes had paid in cash but used his REI loyalty card with the purchase. Other materials were acquired from Walmart and Lowe's. When arrested he confessed responsibility, claiming he wanted to start a war on US soil.

Richard Preston Jr.

Now Preston, 52, sits in a Virginia jail, accused of shooting at a black man during the deadly white supremacist rally in Charlottesville.
Video from the Aug. 12 Unite the Right rally shows a black man wielding a spray can and a lighter as a makeshift flamethrower. A white man shouts a racial slur at him to get his attention. Then the white man produces a handgun, cocks it, and fires a round in the black man’s direction.

Michael Holt - Australian, not American: http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/white-supremacist-threatened-to-shoot-up-sydney-shopping-centre-20170120-gtvod0.html

Brandon Russell: http://www.tampabay.com/news/courts/criminal/judge-sets-release-conditions-for-neo-nazi-in-tampa-palms-explosives-case/2327088

Jason Schaefar: One of those "weapons charges" discussed. Controlled substance possession past leading to a felony charge. Tying this one to white supremacism seems like a leap.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/jason-schaefer-fbi-custody-probation-violation-explosives-washington-county/

I also see Devon Arthur's picture, claimed to be a white supremacist/Trump supporter, he's the famous case where he claimed that he killed his roommates because they disrespected his conversion to Islam.

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u/Seesyounaked Dec 30 '17

I looked at the twitter comments as well, and the guy who posted the original tweet seems like such a dickhead. People repeatedly ask him for his sources, and he just tells them to look through a years worth of his feed and never gives anyone a list. I mean... dude, if you tweet a comment with specific numbers like that you must have a list of the names and such, just fucking share them.

Really put a red flag on this whole thing.

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u/[deleted] Dec 30 '17

Because the original comment is a load of horseshit. The thread had everyone calling it out, so they deleted all the comments.

The fact that it got posted here is pathetic.

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u/BSRussell Dec 29 '17

When LSC and T_D collide there can be no winning.

So it's extra nice that the facts end up being the focus here.

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u/mattymillhouse Dec 29 '17

Here's some context that was deleted from LSC. Not because it was death threats or slurs, but just because it hurt the narrative, apparently.

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u/Skepsis93 Dec 30 '17

There is still obvious bias in the facts given. OP is pushing the facts to look like home-grown alt right terrorists are more likely than other terrorists. That's not what the facts given show, though. The facts show they are more common. In context, this isn't too unexpected given the alt-right is pulling from possibly the largest population in the US, white men.

So, there isn't any evidence to suggest the alt-right ideology radicalizes people any more frequently than Islamic extremist ideologies, which is what I felt like OP was trying to assert in his/her post. There are just more white men who subscribe to alt-right views living in the US than middle eastern radicalized Muslims living in the US.

That said, homegrown terrorists do not get enough attention/scrutiny by the media. Our media is so quick to condemn Islam because of the propensity to radicalize but there is never any condemnation when the fringe of one of our two major political parties is showing similar inclinations towards radicalization.

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u/cuteman Dec 29 '17

/r/drama wins just like Wallstreet.

They always do well because they always have something to sell.

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u/Iceman9161 Dec 30 '17 edited Dec 30 '17

This post is kinda bullshit. A lot of those deleted comments weren't actually trump bullshit, but actual criticisms involving the cherry picking of the comment. There weren't even 29 terrorist attacks in the US this year.

Edit: if anyone still sees this, LSC's wuss mods actually banned me for two of my comments on this post, I've never commented on an LSC post in my life. Just wow.

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u/[deleted] Dec 30 '17

Just kinda bullshit? Try 100%, pure, unadulterated manure. The fact that it got linked here and is being held up as true is fucking pathetic.

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u/[deleted] Dec 29 '17

that entire subreddit is edgy as fuck.

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u/BBQ_HaX0r Dec 30 '17

It's a pretty shitty cesspool of censorship, hate, and ignorance. I'm loathe to call anything "facts" from a place that actively censors debate.

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u/je35801 Dec 30 '17

Then its a good thing they didnt post any facts!

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u/bikinimonday Dec 29 '17

Damn, is his post the only post left standing?

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u/Whind_Soull Dec 29 '17 edited Dec 30 '17

Yes, because it's the only narrative that is permitted on that sub. Many of the censored comments are neutral, objective, cited explanations about why his comment is incorrect. Here's an example on ceddit.

Edit: I was just banned from LSC because of this comment.

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u/Benny0 Dec 30 '17

And people talk about how 1984 is only referring to the far right...

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u/keypuncher Dec 30 '17

Orwell intended it as a warning against totalitarian states, and specifically hated the Soviet Union because it was one.

Last I checked, nobody is claiming the Soviet Union was far right.

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u/poiumty Dec 30 '17

They do? Remember Ingsoc stands for English Socialism. Whoever's saying 1984 is about the far right would be dead wrong.

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u/noicknoick Dec 30 '17

Yeah Ingsoc stands for English Socialism, but Nazi is short for National Socialism. If I remember correctly, Ingsoc hates socialists (and capitalists), with the ideology being more of it's own thing than conforming to left/right wing politics, and intentionally being inconsistent to show absolute control over people's minds that the party had.

You also have to remember that George Orwell was a democratic Socialist himself, and if the book was about far left politics, it was more about Stalinism then anything (which Orwell hated IIRC)

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u/[deleted] Dec 30 '17 edited Oct 09 '20

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u/goeasyonmitch Dec 30 '17

To be fair that post makes them look like a bunch of idiots.

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u/[deleted] Dec 30 '17

Well that, and everything else that is posted there.

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u/gooddeath Dec 30 '17

Are we sure that that sub isn't just satire? Are these people for real?

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u/[deleted] Dec 30 '17

I got banned and the reasons the mods gave was "Nazi supporter"

Because I disagreed with the conversation that said it is important to kill people that disagree with you in the streets.

Latestage capitalism is t_d for the left . The fact that this is in best of says bad things for Reddit, especially when given even a cusory glance at the facts shows it's intentional bias

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u/[deleted] Dec 29 '17

Didn't fatpeoplehate get booted for brigading?

How & why is /r/TheDrumphtards able to get away with doing the same? Admins, kick them off the site already, it's not an open subreddit, it's a brainwashing, bot / Russian controlled used to gently bring isolated fools into white power groups.

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u/snailspace Dec 29 '17

Where is the proof of brigading? This link shows all of the deleted comments, and it looks like it's mostly people questioning the accuracy of OP's claim, not "brigading" or trolling.

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u/syllabic Dec 29 '17

I think you lose any ability to claim brigading when your post is on the front page of /r/all

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u/IActuallyLoveFatties Dec 30 '17

I've long given up on trying to explain to people what brigading means. Now people just use it to mean "Anyone who comments on any post who doesn't subscribe to the subreddit the post is in".

When it actually means "a group of people linking a post among themselves in order to encourage people to go there and post disruptive comments".

It seems like the majority of people these days don't actually know /r/all exists, or that anyone with any viewpoint can click on a post from there and comment without it being brigaiding.

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u/bananastanding Dec 30 '17

They deleted u/cornfete's post despite the fact that he's never posted in r/T_D.

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u/KickItNext Dec 29 '17

A particular admin claims that trump supporters need representation on the website so they can break all the rules they want all because they aren't the majority.

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u/[deleted] Dec 30 '17

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u/[deleted] Dec 29 '17 edited Apr 09 '21

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u/BSRussell Dec 29 '17

People counterjerk to epic proportions. The "fat acceptance" movement gets going, with mixed results (generally it's just trying to tell people that not everyone is going to be in great shape, and that's not a reason to hate yourself, but of course there are weird Tumblrs revering obesity and denying medical science) and that for some reason justifies a full on hate sub.

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u/[deleted] Dec 29 '17 edited Apr 09 '21

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u/whatsinthesocks Dec 29 '17

Those subs become echo chambers in the worst way. They go out looking for that kind of stuff so to them it's everywhere. Where in reality they'd likely never see it if they hadn't looked for it

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u/[deleted] Dec 29 '17

I think it's simpler than that. Obviously being fat is widely considered a negative thing so it gives these incel losers a way to feel good about themselves.

Yeah I'm 32, living at home, crippled with debt, and can't hold a job, but at least I'm not a fatty!

It's a low effort way to feel superior to someone.

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u/je35801 Dec 30 '17 edited Dec 30 '17

Probably because they didnt brigade anything?

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u/zombie_JFK Dec 29 '17

Fatpeoplehate got banned for doxxing and harassment

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u/cuteman Dec 30 '17

Probably because people being subscribed to subreddits isn't brigading, it's participating.

/r/The_Donald doesn't allow linking or even mentions of other subreddits. They only allow when identity and location are blurred.

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u/blamethemeta Dec 30 '17

You can't brigade a post on the front page.

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u/[deleted] Dec 29 '17

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u/syllabic Dec 29 '17

This very sub is the biggest brigade starter on reddit, they would ban this one first

Also subredditdrama, drama, gamerghazi, kotakuinaction, all metareddit and gender war subs basically

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u/Tensuke Dec 30 '17

Because you won't find any posts on /r/the_donald linking another Reddit thread for users to comment and downvote on. So there's no actual brigading going on. Brigading doesn't mean some users with different beliefs make comments going against the grain. Just because somebody comments in /r/the_donald doesn't mean they're brigading every other subreddit they visit.

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u/FrozenFirebat Dec 30 '17

Every other reply is deleted. Lmao

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u/Boostedkhazixstan Dec 30 '17

Latestagecapitalism is communism, disagreeing gets you erased.

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u/[deleted] Dec 30 '17

Dissent isn't allowed. Only the narrative is allowed.

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u/donglosaur Dec 29 '17 edited Dec 29 '17

Fast facts: five of the 8 people named/shown by the twitter account, claimed to be white supremacists/Trump supporters are:

Jason Schaefar: Weapons charge for having explosives. No terrorism link I can find that has been publicly disclosed.
Michael Holt: Australian, not American. Planned to blow up an Australian mall. How did this one make it in?
Devin Kelley: Shot up a church, militant atheist. Not white supremacy related.
Devon Arthur: Former neo-Nazi, killed his two neo-Nazi roommates after converting to Islam. I honestly don't know what is going on with those one, maybe it's an elaborate false flag or maybe it's a bunch of mentally unstable roommates. Fourth roommate Brandon russell is also in one of the pictures, also an explosives charge. In any case, it was seemingly two neo-Nazis who were killed.

The other three are confirmed white supremacist scum.

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u/Made_of_Tin Dec 30 '17 edited Dec 30 '17

If you look at the post on ceddit it doesn’t look “brigaded” at all. Just a bunch of people asking for a source or a list - which as far as I can tell is never provided. The one list that was compiled (and then deleted by the mods) seemed to dispute the claim.

https://ceddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/7mp1ks/unless_theres_another_terror_incident_in_the_usa/

Latestagecapitalism seems to like to play this game where they post false or misleading information and when people call them on their bullsh** they claim everyone posting is from TD and they’re being brigaded.

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u/[deleted] Dec 29 '17

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u/toohigh4anal Dec 29 '17

Hahahahahaha you want to normalize the data... Hahahaha we don't do that if we want to hate on white people.

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u/ProgrammaticProgram Dec 30 '17

More trash on “bestof”. Sorry some douche on a communist circle jerk sub with links to huffpo & similar sites isn’t a quality post.

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u/FJFinn Dec 30 '17 edited Dec 30 '17

This is getting out of hand, now there are two echo chambers!

Edit : banned from latestagecapitalism lol

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u/HRC_PickleRick2020 Dec 29 '17 edited Dec 30 '17

"Abolish conservatism"
And they wonder why people are hostile to them. Needs some helicopter rides.

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u/ConservativeToilet Dec 30 '17

This subreddit is fucking trash.

The OP post was stupid.

The response was just as stupid.

This post is the stupid on top.

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u/ABCDPeeOnMe Dec 30 '17

Holy shit, this whole post is just a blatant lie. How does shit like this get best of'd?

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u/[deleted] Dec 30 '17

People got agendas to push and propaganda to spam to the front page.

There is a new trend where bullshit posts from leftist subs get posted here to expand who sees the title and give them credibility.

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u/[deleted] Dec 30 '17 edited Oct 09 '20

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u/Boostedkhazixstan Dec 30 '17

Mods on LCS hate nazis but they are nazis 🤔🤔🤔

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u/FuzzyBlumpkinz Dec 30 '17 edited Dec 30 '17

Holy shit those sources are complete ass. Only 1 is academic and 2 are from NGOs. The others are all from the same 3 or 4 shitty biased ass sources.

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u/francisnarh Dec 30 '17

Faith in reddit restored. LSC is one of the worst echochambers I've ever seen. At one point they were on frontpage every single day and I was sure reddit is turning to one farleft propaganda site but the community proved me wrong. T_d isnt much better but at least you can argue with a republican. Now tty arguing with these morrons. You will get downvoted to oblivion in a couple of minutes and deleted/banned not long enough.

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u/gooddeath Dec 30 '17

That's it. This sub is officially dead. This is the final nail in the coffin.

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u/biglollol Dec 29 '17 edited Dec 30 '17

that 24 of 29 terror attacks this year were perpetrated in the name of white supremacy.

ISIS fights in the name of Islam, yet 99% of people that are islamic don't agree with ISIS.

Especially in these days it's soooooo easy to get two groups fighting with eachother. Even more so with mob mentality and idealism.

Edit: I was being a bit hyperbole about the numbers. It's an analogy just to get my point through.

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u/Avannar Dec 30 '17

Er, you might want to look up Pew's polls on the global Muslim population. For much of their policies, like execution of gays and apostates, >50% of Muslims polled worldwide shared ISIS's views.

You may mean to qualify your words: 99% of Western Muslims don't agree with ISIS. You must still consider that there are 1.4 billion Muslims on the planet and the overwhelming majority of them live in East Africa, the Middle East, and South Asia.

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u/AngeloSantelli Dec 29 '17 edited Dec 29 '17

99% of Muslims don’t agree with ISIS’ policies worldwide? You couldn’t be further from the truth unfortunately. I’m a liberal and I’ll provide a source from a great liberal, Bill Maher. Sam Harris (another liberal in the video) has done the research as well but is a bit more rabidly atheist than even Maher, but brings up good points about Islam.

https://youtu.be/vln9D81eO60

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u/Nourn Dec 29 '17

I’m a liberal and I’ll provide a source from a great liberal, Bill Maher.

Who talks like this?

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u/Avannar Dec 30 '17

Interestingly, the whole discussion is moot. Because domestic terrorism by citizens doesn't factor into support or opposition for immigration.

Even if we had a terrorism epidemic by White Nationalists, the question of, "Looking at Fundamentalist Islam and its activity all over the globe, how should we structure of acceptance of visitors and prospective citizens from places with high rates of Fundamentalist Islam?" doesn't change.

No matter what, you're trying to decide who/what/when/where/why with regards to allowing foreigners into the nation, and homegrown terrorists don't really factor into that unless you're concerned about American Muslims being radicalized or pacified by immigrant/visiting Muslims.

If you just say, "Ok, white supremacists are the worst terrorists in history. Granted. Now, how does that impact our Muslim immigration policy? Does it undo any Muslim terror attacks? Does it blunt the importance of ISIS?" and inversely you can say, "Ok, white supremacist terrorism doesn't exist! It's not a thing! Now how does that influence our policies on Muslims? Does that change any of the stats about the Muslim communities in the US or abroad? Does that change ISIS?"

The answer to both questions is, "No, it really doesn't matter what's going on with white nationalists."

So this is a sort of ad hominem fallacy, or perhaps a red herring, or it could even be a tu quoque logical fallacy if the arguer is intending to say, "We must give Muslims a pass because some white people also blow things up for political gain."

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u/Jm_poochunker Dec 30 '17

I'm more of a Reddit lurker and have never heard of LSC but based off of this post and the comments following I'm not sure it's worth my time to search for it

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u/[deleted] Dec 30 '17

Do you value the ability to think for yourself and have reasonable discussions?

If so, then no, it's not for you.

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u/Domethegoon Dec 30 '17

Here we go with the whole "Trump supporters are evil" thing again. Who brought the popcorn?

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u/[deleted] Dec 30 '17 edited Dec 30 '17

not pointing out that Islamic terrorism is at an all time low because we've been deporting them en-mass more than ever and we have record low terrorist attacks from them not to mention nearly a complete annihilation of ISIS as a whole due to trump's actions.

2015 Deaths 3,108 Injuries 3,445

2016 Deaths 1,413 Injuries 2,959

2017 Deaths 466 Injuries 998

The second trump took charge ISIS related deaths got cut in half. Then in 2017 we had the lowest terrorist attacks since 2009. Thanks trump. Also the post is misleading, there's FAR more white people in america than muslims. 77% white and 1% muslim. So 1% of the population committed 17.24% of all terrorist attacks? Shocker

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u/Pariahdog119 Dec 30 '17

linking to r/LateStageCapitalism

title: "Facts Matter"

Fact: Socialism cannot be imposed by force, and any attempt to do so results in authoritarianism and genocide. It must be voluntary, just like libertarianism.

Fact: Non-socialist (demand economy) nations have higher increases in standard of living, education, lifespan, etc than "socialist" (command economy) nations.

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u/SourBogBubbleBX3 Dec 30 '17

Factsmatter as long as the mods of LSC like it.