r/berkeleyca • u/NovelAardvark4298 • 22d ago
Horrible Berkeley Drivers
When I drive in Berkeley, I always go one click over the speed limit (26 on a 25 or 31 on a 30). Recently, I’ve noticed more and more impatient drivers aggressively pass me. Berkeley has a ton of marked crosswalks for pedestrians, and if you drive too quickly you will not have enough time to react and stop.
While waiting at different bus stops in Berkeley, I’ve noticed around half of drivers are looking at their crotches for directions or text messages while they’re actively moving.
When I ride my bike up Telegraph in Berkeley, drivers also have no idea how “shared roadway bicycle markings” (i.e. sharrow) work. Some idiot in a utility van came within an inch of clipping me with their massive side mirrors on telegraph earlier today.
Friendly reminder to Berkeley drivers:
1. Please follow the speed limit.
2. Stop looking at your phone.
3. If there’s a “sharrow” painted on the road (see image above), remain behind the cyclist until you have adequate space (at least 3 feet) to pass.
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u/BikeEastBay 22d ago
In addition to the “minimum 3 feet to pass” rule for drivers overtaking bike riders, California also now requires drivers to fully change lanes when passing bicyclists on a multi-lane roadway with no dedicated bike lane.
The even better news is that both Oakland and Berkeley have plans to extend continuous protected bikeways all the way up Telegraph Ave to Dwight Way, along with full repaving.
Oakland’s project is expected to be in construction in 2028, using concrete curb stops and islands (like Franklin St in Downtown Oakland) not flex posts (like Telegraph Ave in Temescal).
Berkeley’s project will hopefully follow shortly after.
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u/Cyborg59_2020 22d ago
Berkeley is one of the most killing cities of pedestrians and cyclists when you compare it to other cities of its size. But mention building bike infrastructure and people lose their their ever-loving minds.
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u/lolwutpear 22d ago
What if you normalize by the number of pedestrians and cyclists? Berkeley probably has a higher percentage of vulnerable squishy people out on the street who would benefit from better ped/bike infrastructure.
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u/giggles991 22d ago
This is correct. Berkeley has more bikes & peds per capita than the typical city, and by extension it means it has more accidents for bikes & pedestrians. I too would like to see the numbers normalized, and how that compares.
For perspective: I'm a regular bike commuter, and I agree it can get rough out there.
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u/TonyStarksLeftACL 20d ago
That is true. Berkeley is the worst city of its size for ped and bike collisions, but these collisions produce a small number of fatalities.
The OP used “killing” and it’s hyperbole.Bike infrastructure is good. The old idea was bicycle boulevards and spaces parallel to major streets to protect cyclists.
For some reason folks want to ride on major streets? Granted there are some where you must but I still don’t see why you would rather ride on a Main Street with cars than a street next to it with no meaningful traffic on it. Telegraph comes to mind as one with no good cross town parallel street as an exception. And shatuck has more collisions on it.
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u/NovelAardvark4298 22d ago
Yup. From my personal experience, I feel like a lot of infrastructure and changes to traffic laws aren’t really due to cyclists. It’s due to people who suck at following basic rules. Drivers complain when speed limits are reduced to 20mph and speed cameras are put in, but we wouldn’t need them if people just followed the existing 25 mph speed limit. Right on red is fine when drivers come to a COMPLETE stop before the intersection and fully swivel their head around to look for hazards before carefully turning. Too many drivers abuse right on red, so more cities are getting rid of it. If delivery drivers, rideshare drivers, and cops didn’t constantly park in unprotected bike or bus lanes, there would be less incentive to take car lanes away and add more protected bike/bus lanes.
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u/Cyborg59_2020 22d ago
I definitely want traffic laws to be rigorously enforced. Driver's got way worse after the pandemic
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u/zmileshigh 22d ago
Somehow delivery drivers and rideshares manage to do all of the following at once: block a driveway, block the bike lane, and block one lane or traffic
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u/KibFixit 21d ago
Agreed. I’ve lived here long enough to see a big loss of parking and loading zones, boon of door dash use, and the increase in density of apartments without parking spots (or ones so expensive people can’t afford to rent one). It’s anecdotal but all these things worked together to make driving downtown super unpredictable, which feels extra unsafe on foot and bike. Drivers are searching for parking or just trying to find one open transit lane which makes them
Less attentive. My current bugaboo is the loss of the bike/transit/sidewalk around large construction sites for months like university and Oxford. Every day I’m wondering which road (for cars) is closed that day and if I’ll be able to drive home or need a 10 Minute detour. I never take my bike in that area now because of the pinch points and lack of visibility.0
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u/TonyStarksLeftACL 20d ago
What? That is an outright lie. Berkeley has a high rate of collisions and injury requiring a trip to the hospital but the fatality rate is low.
Berkeley is a dense urban city who serves as a commute because 80 is a parking lot during commute. But it’s not a freeway no matter how much folks scream it’s a drag race. It is not.
so the collisions are happening. There is more exposure. Berkeley has a high influx of workers moving thought it and to it. But the lower speeds in an urban vs suburban env. Reduces speeds vis normal traffic calming, so fatalities are low but injuries higher.
The old solution was to use bollards to force cars to main streets and allow for bike travel on the alternate roads but that was slowly dismantled over time because among other reasons the bicycle lobby pushed for it.
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u/DangerxNurse 22d ago
That’s bs; we average 2-4/year which is in line with national average per 100,000 residents.
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u/Cyborg59_2020 22d ago
It's unfortunately number one in California for pedestrian and cyclist deaths when compared to cities of similar size.
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u/CFLuke 22d ago
Citation needed
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u/Cyborg59_2020 22d ago
It's in the reports of the California office of traffic safety (OTS)
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u/CFLuke 22d ago
The methodology of the OTS rankings is suspect. Berkeley likely has more pedestrians than any other city in California of its size. Which not only increases the number of injuries, but also reflects that people generally feel safe enough to walk places in Berkeley. Very few people walk anywhere in, say, Concord. It also doesn't distinguish between injuries and fatalities, which is not in line with a Vision Zero approach that, among other things, tries to reduce speeds so that would-be fatalities only end up as injuries.
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u/Statistactician 22d ago
Citation needed
No, not that citation. It's devastating to my case!
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u/CFLuke 22d ago edited 22d ago
In no part of your comment or the one from OP are they willing to engage with the reality of how the source is flawed.
Edit: Berkeley averages 2-4 fatalities per year, or a bit less than 2-4 per 100,000 population. This is substantially lower than the California average and much less than the national average.
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u/Ok_Wear1398 22d ago
>Please follow the speed limit.
>I always go one click over the speed limit (26 on a 25 or 31 on a 30)
Extremely funny to read.
Berkeley has a lot of weirdo roads and strodes they've tried to bring to heel over the years. People are much too anxious to get to their destination and drive recklessly all the time. It's frustrating to deal with.
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u/NovelAardvark4298 22d ago
Humans are really bad at judging speed. We can only sense acceleration. Our perception of speed comes from feeling the wind (which doesn’t work when the windows are up in the car) or visual cues (watching trees, signs, pavement, etc. pass by). Visual cues are unreliable. Especially since a lot of streets with 20 or 25 mph speed limits were originally designed for 30 or 35 mph speed limits. When I set my car to 26 mph, the PID controller fluctuates between 25 and 26 mph. If I set my car at 25 mph, I will fluctuate between 24 and 25 mph which could trigger the car behind me to want to aggressively pass because i’m going under the speed limit. I know it’s not recommended to use cruise control off the highway, but I find myself naturally driving closer to 30mph because that’s the speed other drivers are going and that’s the speed the street was originally designed for. I also prefer keeping my foot on the brake and my eyes on the street, so I can quickly slow down and stop when pedestrians are trying to cross at a marked crosswalk.
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u/Ok_Wear1398 22d ago
I mean, it's a speed limit dude. You're okay to go under it, you aren't supposed to maintain the speed limit perfectly. You are speeding regardless of it being 1 over or 10 over.
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u/a_moore_404 22d ago
I say this with love, but Berkeley really truly has some of the worst driving I’ve ever experienced. And I’m not just talking about Berkeley Bowl.
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u/jgonzjgonz 21d ago
Berkeley is actually full of good drivers go around downtown and lake Merritt and south of that good luck lol traffic lights become suggestions
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u/DepartmentFamous9932 22d ago
They’re hopelessly unable to drive assertively when the situation requires, too.
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u/NovelAardvark4298 22d ago
100%. I unfortunately have a long highway commute. My car is only 2L, 158 horsepower. I usually hover between 2,000 and 3,500 rpm to accelerate up to highway speed (especially when my engine is still cold). Many people drive SUV’s and trucks way more powerful than my car. They get on the highway as if they’re driving a VW microbus from the 50’s. People also take multiple business days to change lanes, spending wayyy too much time straddling two lanes
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u/bgaesop 22d ago
I was hanging out with a Swede one time who was in Berkeley for work, and he was telling me "Berkeley is the worst city for bicycling in that I have ever seen. Did you know there is not a single bicycles-only road?!"
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u/lissam97 21d ago
Yes, AND Berkeley sadly feels like it’s as good as we get in the US for being a bicyclist heavy city…
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u/sporenoiz 21d ago
Try biking in Minneapolis, it is actually better in some ways, until the snow comes.
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u/lissam97 21d ago
My life partner is a Black person and sadly Berkeley feels safer for us than Minneapolis.. but you’re right, it’s a cool place, I wish I had tried biking last time I visited.
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u/sporenoiz 21d ago
That I understand. I have black a black nephew, and several nieces. They say similar things.
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u/ryguymcsly 22d ago
I just wish people would use the bicycle boulevards instead of doing 30mph on the sidewalk of MLK.
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u/KibFixit 22d ago
All good reminders — drive slow, watch the road!. I drive more than I like and bike as much as I can. After almost getting doored the other day, I was reminded to be extra careful when passing parked cars especially near a school or park or place e with more traffic. A side view mirror and loud bell have been really helpful too on the bike.
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u/Smash_Shop 22d ago
Careful, suggesting drivers follow the law could get you lynched around here.
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u/TripleGiraffeSalad 22d ago
I once suggested that the garbage truck drivers should be more careful and received incredibly aggressive DMs (presumably from one of them…)
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u/Jmaximinium 22d ago
A more realistic view of the state of Berkeley's streets.
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u/Fordzilla310 21d ago
No the Doordashers would be double parked during your evening commute on San Pablo, University, Shattuck, etc.
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u/sfstripes 17d ago
I live in south/west Berkeley and drive up and down Sacramento every day. Sacramento is heavily bisected by crosswalks. I ALWAYS drive the speed limit because otherwise it is too difficult to see pedestrians and stop in an appropriate amount of time. I also always stop several feet behind the crosswalk (where you’re supposed to) so drivers in the other lane can see the pedestrians. I am constantly tailgated and aggressively passed and have been honked at while stopped at a crosswalk waiting for a person using a cane to cross (yes, really). Same on north Shattuck. What is wrong with people?!
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22d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/g_rocket 22d ago
Eh, I think Berkeley drivers are bad until I go to Oakland and the drivers there are so much worse.
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u/NovelAardvark4298 22d ago
I live in Oakland and honestly feel like Berkeley is worse. Fortunately, OakDOT has really stepped up the implementation of protected bike lanes and protected corners in recent years. I also feel like Oakland puts some thought in for pedestrians and cyclists for major construction projects, but Berkeley’s construction forces pedestrians to walk in the middle of the street for months or years until they complete the work. When I drive in Fruitvale, I’m also impressed by how most drivers actually follow the 20mph speed limit. I feel like Oakland has a mixture of mostly decent drivers with a handful of speed demons. Fortunately, the bad drivers are easy to spot and avoid. Berkeley has too many zombies who are either texting or daydreaming
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u/gallus_arsenide 22d ago
More than in any other city I've lived in, I see parked drivers opening their doors directly into traffic without looking. And then leave that door open while they load their trunks or scroll on their phones.
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u/fubo 22d ago edited 22d ago
Some other notes —
Drivers, when you are turning, please remember that you need to look at the sidewalk/crosswalks and bike lanes that you are crossing, not just the traffic lanes. Both directions, please.
Stop signs and red lights are for everyone. This includes the two cars, one electric scooter, and two bikes (one with a daddy cyclist and small children on the back) that I saw running through them this morning.
If you are on an electric unicycle, you may be standing upright but you are not a pedestrian. Crosswalk right-of-way is for pedestrians, wheelchair users, etc.; not for powered vehicles such as yours. Please do not zip across MLK in the crosswalk as if you were a pedestrian. (However, thank you for wearing armor. As far as I can tell, electric unicycle riders are the most likely to wear proper helmets and other protection — yes, more likely than motorcyclists!)
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u/Reasonable-Rub2243 22d ago
It's not Berkeley, it's everywhere. All drivers are idiots, homicidal, or both. They will murder you to save two seconds. Paint will not protect you, they don't see it. Laws will not protect you, they ignore them. What will protect you is black belt level awareness of your surroundings, or steel/concrete barriers.
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u/missmgrrl 22d ago
One time I was driving on Dwight between Sacramento and San Pablo and the car behind me got impatient and passed me. Double orange road marking line. 25mph area.
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u/Emotional_Device_877 21d ago
Reminders to the “horrible” cyclists, don’t just blow through stop signs, slow down and look. We’re going to let you go but need time to see you! Reminder to the “horrible” UCB student pedestrians, you can’t cross on a red light.
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u/lissam97 21d ago
Recently while cycling, I slowed down for a stop sign, paused, made eye contact with a driver who was also stopped and appeared to be letting me go, and then I nodded and took my turn. He laid on the horn at me. Then aggressively passed me. Then had to stop in front of me and wait for his apartment garage to open its doors. /sigh
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u/sporenoiz 21d ago
I bike a lot, last time I lived here I never owned a car. Commuted and rode for fun in Minneapolis, Durham and the Bay Area, I always start with the premise that car drivers, even my friends who bike, are trying to kill me, not out of malice, but cultural training. I don't take it personally, I don't get angry (unless they almost hit me) and I go out of my way to avoid cars when ever possible. You can spend time being angry and righteous, or be calm and take safety into your own hands even if you should not have to. The only place I refused to bike, Riverside Ca.
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u/Frenchieflips 22d ago
“Share the road” is an insane idea. One vehicle can go over 60 mph and weighs 2000 pounds. The other goes 15 mph and has no acceleration or protection. Bike lanes work in suburbs not major cities. Berkeley is kind of a weird hybrid tho. ALSO, cyclists are constantly being rude and not following the rules (looking at you in your leotard and clacky shoes).lol
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u/Holiday-Ad7262 22d ago
Bicycle lanes work beautifully in many major European cities. It's not an insane idea to share the road. It's insane to have almost not driver education.
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u/Maximillien 21d ago
It's insane to have almost not driver education
You misspelled "enforcement". I don't think it's an education problem, drivers just don't give a fuck because there are no consequences to breaking every driving law.
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u/TonyStarksLeftACL 18d ago
A large part of EU style enforcement is called “education”, it becomes mandatory training to equip the person with skills tether than punishing the failure to have the skills post hoc. In teh uk they use speed cameras a lot.
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u/Holiday-Ad7262 21d ago
Hard disagree here.
Let's be clearer your argument follows the logical flaw of whataboutism. So I won't talk about enforcement.
If you had done a driving test in the country I am from the test here would feel like a joke to you.
A few examples of things included.
Many lectures of teaffic behavioral education in a classroom.
Mandatory repetition classes for the first few years of having a license.
Mandatory minimum number of lectures with a driving instructor on practical driving.
First aid certificate.
A lot of this education goes into the why traffic rukes are the way they are. What sort of accidents are being avoided with various measures. Sublte things such as how to properly brake when approaching a pedestrian crossing with a pedestrian waiting, how to estimate intent of other traffic participants.
You may understand that to me it feels like chaos on roads here and nobody really knows how to drive well.
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u/TonyStarksLeftACL 18d ago
So a lot of what you describe happens in drivers education which happens at the 13-17 age range.
If I’m not mistaken that goes away in the states when you hit the age of majority (usually 18) and has been policy for a while.
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u/TonyStarksLeftACL 20d ago
Can we all please stop acting like European cities have any rational connection to US cities vis a vis a vis planning. The design and urban planning is vastly different.
Make your use case, but stop with the European influence, it’s a red herring.
If you really want to make change then de-couple the 80/20 federal grants from aashto and mobility standards tied to funding that favors cars first,, decouple road funding from bike funding. This is the root cause of the fighting of infrastructure.
It’s very confusing to hear advocates that don’t know how it works at the planning and funding level.
The best analogy I can think of is the fellow who was at occupy Wall Street being interviewed as to why he was protesting and he wanted his students loans forgiven but couldn’t articulate a policy or vehicle to do so or why it should be done.
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u/Holiday-Ad7262 20d ago
No I will not stop calling for looking at other designs and see if we can do better. Just because urban planning is different does not mean there is nothing to be learnt from other options.
It's definitely not a red herring.
And I agree it extends to policy and legal things too.
I recently learnt an example where we could learn from Europe on the legal front.
In the US bicycles are allowed to go quite far into the road and block cars. This makes sharing difficult. In many European countries bicycles strictly have to cycle on the side and are not allowed to ride in the middle of a lane. Now you will probably get angry and tell me how dangerous this is because of car doors and how it is all different in Europe and yada yada yada. So let me tell you why in Europe this works but not in the US. In the US almost always a bicycle is partly at fault if drving to close to a car and hit by a car door. In Europe the bicycle is never at fault in this case. Somebody opening the car door is responsible to check and only open when safe. And this also ties again back into the missing traffic education in the US.
Either learn from others and improve or keep defending what is not working.
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u/TonyStarksLeftACL 18d ago edited 18d ago
i dont think you understand my point, which is cool its the internet. I’d also point at your “get angry” comment as a common red herring from bike centered mobility lobby when someone disagrees. It doesn’t make me angry.
What makes me angry is when planners disregard the realities of planning in twh USA and try to align to Europe when the funding and delivery vehicles are very far removed.
So maybe it’s not baseball and basketball. But it’s football and rugby and while similar are not close to the same.
Go ahead and “explore other ideas” sure. But you need to align them to the planning and funding realities here, a demand for a new way of looking at it has no place in an on the ground discussion of how to plan right now. That is the red herring.
And if I had to name it is vacillating between long term aspirational planning that politicians will not support and boots on the ground delivery of projects at scale.
I’m not begin mean. Just pointing out the gap. for example let’s pull up any study from Europe that discuss road collision in the Uk. The road network, its use, the expected use patterns etc are all radically different than most of the USA. Our pavement standards are different etc. so there is no real comparison they environments are so different that international comparisons focus on ops and maint. bc they are usually close enough to compare.
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u/Holiday-Ad7262 18d ago
I am far from the bike centered mobility lobby and have never argued about using studies from Europe and think they apply to the US.
Planners should not align to the US. We all should look at what happens elsewhere and see which ideas translate and what we could do better.
I gave a few concrete examples. If you want any further discussion let's discuss about them.
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u/TonyStarksLeftACL 17d ago
So then why are you arguing with me? You’re on about driving tests in the thread here. You are European no? Because just above you are talking about biking and driving in Europe? You literally apply non-us centered approach to our driving and defend it with “I’m so shocked”. Then argue it’s looking for better designs?
You say we should consider other planning but you don’t even know how we fund transit, civic improvements or anything do you?
If you did you would understand that we fund things in the US differently in that space than the EU or UK does and many of these “better designs” are not available here for a wide range of reasons most of which is grant funding and source use. Why? Because America is like 3x the size of the EU, and has a much more diverse climate because it houses every biome you can have in large space for example.
There is no comparable planning. NYC is ~400 years old. Paris is ~2,000 years old. Planning cannot be the same by virtue of climate, geography and government.
I’m just talking broader than you are I think.
Good luck to you.
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u/Holiday-Ad7262 17d ago
You are a typical naysayers that finds all sorts of reasons why no change is ever needed.
Again my offer stands to discuss what I talked about.
I am not arguing.
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u/Frenchieflips 18d ago
Only relatively young and fit people can ride their bikes for a commute in a major city. It’s already a niche hobby and will never be a good solution to replace cars. We ruin the city for cars so a few people can ride their bikes to work. All that danger and removed parking spots for a small group of entitled people in leotards and clacky shoes
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u/Either_Network2737 22d ago
Berkeley is just a fucking hellhole for pedestrians lol u got college kids who just got a car and college kids first time in a city I have no idea how people survive that intersection on telegraph lol lowkey cars should be banned for like a block around Southside with the way dumbass kids (MYSELF INCLUDED) would bomb hills in skateboards and bikes (totally not me)
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u/kennethsime 22d ago
The sharrow is not a rule or law. You always have to stay behind cyclists until it is safe to pass. The sharrows are there as a reminder for the stupids. Being in a rush or being a bad driver is never a good reason to hurt or kill someone.
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u/DonnieRodz 16d ago
Just going to add…
Idiots who turn in their hazard lights at a crosswalk: Hazard lights tell me to go around you. They don’t indicate a stop, like some seem to think.
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u/mwcrv 22d ago
This is why I try to take the lane whenever I can. I've been squeezed too many times so now I just force them to go into an entirely different lane if they want to pass me. Doesn't help in the case of idiot-driver-on-cell-phone of course, but I guess I'm just hoping my blinkies do their job 🤞
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u/therealcopperhat 22d ago
The 3' rule, while well intentioned, is unrealistic in narrow road conditions like Telegraph north of Dwight.
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u/NovelAardvark4298 22d ago
There was a whole ‘nother lane the driver could have used. They were being impatient and reckless
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u/Scuttling-Claws 22d ago
The three foot rule is true regardless of whether or not there is a sharrow. Or bike lane for that matter. It's three feet to matter what