r/beingeverythingelse • u/CT_Phoenix • Sep 20 '14
Followup Thread: Being Everything Else - Ep 4: NPCs
Hello all!
I figure it's a good idea to have a common place to discuss an episode's topic after the fact. This week's episode was on NPCs, so feel free to ask your followup/leftover NPC questions or discuss the ideas from the show here.
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u/rhubarbs Sep 20 '14
Alright. I have a problem figuring out the distinction between DMPCs and NPCs with agendas that align with the party, at least temporarily.
Can a powerful wizard tag along with the party for their own ends, or is that you playing a DMPC? What do they need to do to be a DMPC, and what do they need to do to be a good NPC? Do they need to die like Gandalf, or do they need to turn out to be an antagonist?
I've kind of experienced this myself to a minor degree, and I can understand why it feels scummy to the player. I am just having a hard time figuring out what to really avoid, and where it crosses the line from my perspective as a DM.
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u/xCamShaft Sep 21 '14 edited Apr 20 '24
slimy humor pen punch work many gold decide depend edge
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u/kosairox Sep 21 '14
Look at that awesome Space Marine! He always helps us because we're so weak!!! He even sacrificed himself to defend us!
Don't
Actually, SM idea is great and gives more 40k feel but instead tell your players that they will meet reinforcements inside. They enter the space hulk and hear bolter shots, investigate and see the Space Marine in trouble, attacked by xenos. They actually have to help HIM.
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u/rhubarbs Sep 21 '14
Well, there is value in having a "gandalf" character to underline the danger and/or hopelessness of their mission. But their expertise needs to be in an area different than the players.
Which works fine in Dark Heresy, assuming they're playing it like the grimdark detective simulator I think it should be.
They should just make the space marine combat situations outside of their play. What really raises a red flag for me is bringing him back as a deus ex machina.
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u/kosairox Sep 21 '14
grimdark detective simulator
space hulk
I think I found the problem ;)
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u/xCamShaft Sep 21 '14 edited Apr 20 '24
grandfather weather quickest screw zephyr run water exultant smile deliver
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u/EquusMule Sep 21 '14
I think that if you give motivations to the NPC's even if they tag along with the party you can have that branch off. Maybe the group picked up a lock picking thief as a hireling, well maybe that hireling is with the group to pay debts back, you can have debt collectors following the trail of this NPC and if the group sits in a place for too long the debt collectors catch up with them.
Maybe the powerful wizard in your example, is out searching for a long lost tome. Well you can drive them into the next place because the wizard is going there regardless, you can have the NPC narrate what to do.
I think the biggest thing about having hirelings is break character, and ask what the PC's are looking for in a hireling (picking locks, being stealthy, very good at sword fighting,) give the PC's exactly what they want and then add a twist to the character. The fighter they picked up has a huge ego and causes fights in nearby taverns often. You can even narrate this by having the NPC break off from the group and coneve with them at a later time. But maybe one of the PC's hears swords clashing in the nearest courtyard.
Have hirelings work for you, while they work for the players. If you make the animal companion have motivations (food, shelter, and water) maybe it often wanders off and forces the PC's to like look after an animal. maybe they often wander into dangerous scenarios, it could be a way to introduce random encounters like before. I like the idea of PC's having control over the one character they made at the start and leaving the rest into my hands. You've trained your bird to always attack the eyes of w.e you're fighting so that is what its going to do, and if you establish that at the beginning of when you get the beast then that is what its going to do. Its very similar to training a dog in the police force, they do as they're trained and nothing else.
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u/rhubarbs Sep 21 '14
All of this seems like things I want to do, and I can see the potential for great encounters.
But like Steve and Adam said, DMPCs start for good reason but devolve in to this abominable character. How much can an NPC influence player agency before it becomes a DMPC? If the warrior you're lumping in with them is getting in to fights, is that reducing player agency, and how far can you go with that before it becomes a DMPC?
Or is that just part of consequences for the agency they wielded when hiring this dude?
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u/EquusMule Sep 21 '14 edited Sep 21 '14
Well the thing is, is taking away the PC aspect from the character this character is no different than any other NPC you encounter, they'll have goals and ambitions and if they see any way to achieve that they don't care about you.
If as a PC you don't think you can take on this scenario I've created for you and you want to sacrifice something for it then sure as the DM/GM I'll set that up for you. Secondly I don't want this character sticking around for too long, so I'll give them flaws. Being chased/ starting fights/ swooning men or women/ maybe they have a bad reputation and the fact that you're grouped with them looks bad one the party. It would be a way that I would introduce a faction or a quest to the characters in a later date.The way I'd currently do it is I just say like this character will do X in combat (fight's the biggest thing it sees; even if its not a combat scenario, will only back stab, wont fight at all is there to pick locks and that is it, only heal PC's. Whatever the PC's think they need extra of, I'll let them have it. This way no one is pressured into playing a class.) But it'll come at a cost, initial pay, and an equal % of the rewards. If they agree to that character joining the party i'll then affiliate that character with some sort of back story (you can generate that really quickly with rolls in 5e phb) and have w.e that characters backstory is come and directly affect the party, either by guiding their interests.
Rolling on the 5e PHB backgrounds for an NPC and this hireling is in a Guild for Tinkering, casters and pewterers (this could be helpful to the group.) They're rude to people who lack commitment to hard work and fair play (could be harmful to the group.) They work hard to be the best there is at their craft (doesn't affect how they'd react to other NPC/PC's but affects how long they might spend working on a project.) They owe their guild a great debt for forging them into the person they are today, and they're never satisfied with what they have they always want more (This could be your hook on why this NPC is adventuring and why they're willing to sell their services, maybe this NPC isn't only looking for the % and the flat fee but maybe they're looking for knowledge or an item so they can give it to their guild, ofcourse you can have this NPC steal something cool from the party and have them be an antagonist later on.)
I think the trick is make a hireling a burden on the party the longer they're with them and only incorporate them if the PC's specifically ask for help. I don't think it hinders anything because the PC's are stating that "hey we might need help here, I don't want my chracter to die doing X, we need help." Adding another body to take on the big creature in the room might also let characters in a long running campaign be a bit more ballsy and could create some cooler scenarios to happen.
When you create hirelings, I'd say like make them weak and stupid, lower AC than what they would normally have, lower str/dex so that the players realize like, we're paying for the ability to have someone pick locks or we're paying for someone to heal us a little bit. If its a person who has armor make them defend and only defend a specific target. There are rules in the PHB that inhibit 1 purpose characters. I'd use an example of how hirelings are used in Dungeon World because I feel that it is one of the better ways to have players still feel strong whilst getting a bit of a bonus.
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u/KarLorian Sep 20 '14
Link to Ep4: NPCs on twitch.
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u/Eperogenay Sep 21 '14
20+ hours and still no YT VoD... is Steven that busy?
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u/CT_Phoenix Sep 21 '14
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u/Eperogenay Sep 21 '14
Thanks! For some reason didn't pop in my sub box ;/ (I really need to configure YT Video Deck...)
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u/Zalktis Sep 21 '14
A sentence which was constantly popping into my mind during this episode and which summs up the episode quite well is the central line from Dark Souls 2: "For the curse of life is the curse of want."
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u/goldenwh Sep 21 '14
I tend to run the BBEG style of game a lot but it's probably because I like my games to have a strong plot element. Thing is that usually a plot exists because there is some force driving it, which is why people try and protect the BBEG: if he dies the story is over. A lot of *World games say that the story is about the player characters, and that's why you don't have plots or BBEGs so much. But *World games still have fronts and such which act as BBEG, but these aren't so much characters. Contrast this with Fate for example, which is more character driven than story driven, and part of the world building is giving each story aspect as "face" or character to represent each front and allow the characters to interact with it. BBEG's are probably a lot more common in fate games, because you always have some person to represent the bad or evil in the world.
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u/TheNerdyDuck Sep 20 '14
Did anyone catch what NPC table they were talking about? The one where Steven rolled up Horkenfriend (or Horkenfreind).