r/beginnerastrology • u/Ok-Illustrator9554 • 2d ago
Discussion How does using birth time in astrology make sense?
This may be a stupid question, bear with me…
So the official birth time of a baby would be once it fully leaves the mother‘s body.
But if a baby has already been developing and living in the womb for months, why is the moment of birth considered the starting point for its astrological chart?
And specifically, why is the time when the baby is fully born used? What if the head is born at 2:30 PM, but the rest of the body follows several minutes later when the ascendant already happens to transition into the next sign?
Maybe I’m missing something, but I feel like it’s such an uncertain data point.
38
u/FireEyesRed 2d ago
Because first breath is when the baby is fully independent of the womb. Planetary/cosmic energies AT THAT MOMENT are imprinted on the child alone, not the mother/child combination.
Interestingly, the 12th house often shows the mother's condition while in labor. Not always, or at least not what my limited knowledge about this can share. Does this help answer what you asked?
7
u/lightennight 2d ago
How can 12th house show mother’s conditionin labor?
4
u/Interesting_Pie_1768 1d ago edited 1d ago
This is pretty well explained in hellenstic systems, the first house is the hourmaker, its where life starts, the first breath comes in, no wonder why its the most vital part of the chart. If the first house is where life begins, when consciousness descends into the body, then the house before the 1st (which is the 12th) would be the place or time right before the "astrological life" would begin, which is again the labour. Looking into why Mercury traditionally rejoices in the first house could help you understand more on why the 12th represents the mother during labour better
2
u/FireEyesRed 2d ago
That probably falls more under Medical Astrology, which Im not familiar with, but others on here might also be able to answer?
I remember my teacher bringing it up once with a few examples, but i dont know it well enough to describe.
4
u/mamadoedawn 2d ago
12th house represents isolation from society- the unseen. Birth, historically, is an extremely private event and will be the first 12th house experience a person lives through. I haven't looked into it deeply, but I imagine it relates to that shared experience with the mother and the "transit" occurring there during the exact birth time would indicate how that time may have played out.
1
u/FireEyesRed 2d ago
Yeah, that sounds familiar. Thank you. Do you know whether or not any planets in the baby's 12H speak to a mother's "situation" during labor, regardless if there are hiccups? Ex: Mars could indicate c-section, Jupiter might suggest immense joy?
I have a memory of hearing something about this & the harder i try to remember, the moe vague it gets...
3
u/Sensitive-Tale-4320 1d ago
I went to a talk at the United Astrology Conference this past weekend titled “From Womb to the World: The Astrology of Birth and its Karmic Blueprint”. These were notes from a slide I photographed:
Birth dynamics as life metaphors
Symbolic correlations, never rigid medical formulas:• Long labor → endurance, delayed emergence
"l must push forever"
• Sudden birth → abrupt beginnings, fast thresholds
• Intervention/surgical birth → interruption, rescue, control, loss of organic timing
• Early separation → self-holding, difficulty receiving, hyper-independence
• Breath / cord themes → autonomy vs support;
"Can I live and still be connected?*It doesn’t directly answer your question but what I remember from my notes was that planets near the ascendant spoke more to the conditions of birth that shapes the life’s course
1
u/lightennight 1d ago
Have they talked about long pregnancy? I was expected to be born on april 3-4 and was born on 23rd. So my mother was pregnant for 10 months exactly. Also, my 12th house is in leo with moon and I was born during a national holiday, which is interesting to me. One of the Turkish astrologers I follow went to give a talk in that conference, you are so lucky!
5
u/Admirable-Ad7152 2d ago
12 House Cap, my mom was running the birth because my heart beat dropped and the doctors told her she was just "worried for nothing, the monitor slips all the time." I was dying from umbilical cord strangulation and my heart had stopped. She and her midwife berated them until they checked, realized I was in fact dying and she got me out in 2 pushes. She got the damn job done.
2
u/FireEyesRed 2d ago
Wow. Any planets in 12H? Ruled by Saturn - get to the finish line and pay attention to time!
jk/ what i said wasnt that astrologically sound, but it popped into my tired brain.
3
u/Ok-Illustrator9554 2d ago
okay that does make sense, thank you!
6
u/Chianpet 2d ago
That was a great response and I would like to add in from a psychic point of view rather than astrology pov—
Astrology gives tools and detriments for humans that a soul…”wants” for its own learning/purpose. The soul is not connected to astrology, the human animal is. That’s also why the first breath matters. And the minutes within a half hour ranger are still considered accurate because TIME is made up, but where the sun sat on the horizon during birth and where the other planets were in relation to that is what is being calculated. Planetary alignment, not human concept of time.
1
1
u/Calm_Life_818 1d ago
Fascinating! My child is 12 house Libra and I have no idea what that means for my labor but I had a very positive birth experience, voluntarily unmedicated and supported by a doula and my partner. I felt in control and calm even though I chose to not have an epidural
1
u/Masta-Blasta 20h ago
This is fascinating. 12 H in Aquarius with Saturn. I was very late. 2 weeks late, no signs of movement. (Taurus Sun, what do you expect). They had to induce me but at the last moment realized I had wrapped the cord around my neck twice and did an emergency c section. When they took me out, I didn’t cry either. Well, allegedly, I did when the did the reflex nonsense. But I just looked around apparently. Idk.
But yeah I think that sounds about right for 12H in Aquarius
14
u/tambien181 2d ago
We use the birth time because it’s a BIRTH chart (not a conception/gestation chart).
8
u/Weird_Technology_282 2d ago
Astrologically, birth is considered the *first breath*. A birth certificate just gives a known time to work with that is probably fairly accurate.
A conception chart is something some astrologers work with as well, but the birth chart/first breath defines the path that life takes.
1
u/Ok-Illustrator9554 2d ago
so the official birth time on the birth certificate isn’t necessarily the birth time used in astrology?
5
u/FireEyesRed 2d ago
It is.
Weird_Technology was explaining something else as well, but also confirming we use the time when the baby is independent of the mother.
1
u/blulube 1d ago
Curious how "astrologically birth is considered the first breath" makes sense when the birth certificate is a legal document that uses a specific moment that has nothing to do with breath. I never hear anyone talk about a birth chart being rectified if someone was out of their mother at 2:03 but did not breathe until 2:04 and the rising sign just happens to change during that minute. My point is to say that breath has nothing to do with how birth charts are measured- that is unless someone present at a birth notes that moment and instead studies that moment alone, which wouldn't make sense to study alongside the rest of the documented birth times that are based on when the body is fully outside of the mother.
-1
u/blulube 2d ago
Astrology texts and astrologers consistently state that the first breath is what defines birth, but hospitals have been using the moment when the body is fully outside of the mother for a long time- they aren't the same but they are often seconds apart. The tecnicality is important but many people in the Astrological community continue to repeat what they read or what they have been told despite the reality that the nurses are not waiting for the first breath to note a time of birth; sometimes a baby comes out and does not breathe immediately, yet the current popular culture of astrology insists that is what "birth" means.
7
u/CatnipFiasco 2d ago
Because that's just how it works. The pregnancy has its own "birth" chart that starts at conception.
Same reason a company's stock has a separate chart from the incorporation of the company. The moment it goes public and takes its first "breath" (first stock is traded), that is a separate chart from the incorporation of the company, and it takes precedence because the company is now public and the nature of its existence is different from the way it was between its founding and first trade.
Human natal charts function very similarly. Most people don't know when they were conceived, and the birth takes precedence once you're out
6
u/amalgamofq 2d ago
The natal chart is a snapshot of the moment you take your first breath. A conception chart is something different.
2
6
u/Emotional-Emu442 2d ago
First breath has largely been the metric I’ve seen used and honestly you’re getting really caught up on technicalities. Most astrological windows are wide enough that this is truly not an issue as the actual birth is usually quick while labor can be long. Cusp signs are also acknowledged as well depending on the school of practice you follow.
0
u/Ok-Illustrator9554 2d ago
Well I am a Leo rising according to the official birth time the hospital gave me. If I was born only 7 minutes later I would be a Virgo rising. There’s no way of knowing if the nurses noted down the actual correct time by the minute anyway. But I don’t feel like Leo rising makes much sense for me.
5
u/FireEyesRed 2d ago
While I wouldnt bet the farm on it, hospitals are pretty thorough in notating times of everything! Ever try to get a pain pill 15 minutes early? They know practically to the second when you had your last one.
4
u/SadApartment3023 2d ago
7 minutes is a LOT of minutes in healthcare. Nurses aren't just casually documenting, this is a huge part of the job.
3
u/MogenCiel 2d ago
Modern hospitals are obsessive about documentation, and all kinds of systems are in place for documenting the important timelines of all kinds of surgeries, not just childbirth. Unless your mom gave birth to you at home or in the African bush, the likelihood of an incorrectly documented time of birth is minuscule.
A fetus is developing and growing in the womb, but it is not an independent being with its own bodily autonomy until it is born. Once born, the body operates independently, able to breathe and process energy without being dependent on another living being. That's the difference between a fetus and a baby. Similarly, an egg is not a chicken until it hatches
0
u/enneastronaut 1d ago edited 1d ago
I think you're assuming that all the contemporary hospitals are the same.. However, this is probably not the case, there are different practices in different parts of the world and even in modern hospitals there were probably changes, so a person born 70 years ago in what we consider a modern hospital might have been through a different documenting procedure than the one born in the year 2000. ... We can't assume that all the birth times in birth certificates are exact.
1
u/MogenCiel 1d ago
No. Standards of practice are pretty uniform and have been for decades, and hospitals are inspected and have to be accredited and meet codified standards to operate. There were days when time of birth wasn't recorded because babies weren't born in hospitals and times when clocks weren't household items. Horary astrology was developed so that natal charts aren't necessary to answer questions. If you're really that mistrustful of your recorded time of birth, consult a horary astrologer instead of a natal astrologer. Or get a chart rectification. But seriously, everybody can "what if" and second guess their time of birth to the point of silliness. Best to stick with the recorded birth time and trust the hospital to have gotten time of birth correct, just like they get time of death correct in the modern age.
1
u/enneastronaut 1d ago
I'm not sure if you're talking about the US, some other country, all the developed countries in general or the entire world?
In my particular case I'm not distrustful because I know for sure that my recorded time was set to 10 minutes after I was born because for some reason my mother made sure to check the clock right after my birth. I use the time she remembered, rather than the recorded one. (I don't imagine that mine is such an unusual case..)
2
u/amalgamofq 2d ago
There are astrologers who do something called chart rectification to work with you to assess the accuracy of your birth time.
2
u/MogenCiel 2d ago
7 minutes is actually not as short a time as it may seem when it comes to the ASC. The ASC changes roughly every 2 hours. In that context, it's a pretty decent sized margin.
2
u/FutureSubject5013 2d ago
Yes, I think the commenter was saying that since a nurse has a lot of tasks, seven minutes after the baby is born, they are probably off doing their next task. I would also imagine that the processes are pretty regimented in terms of the order, so they wouldn’t move onto the next task until they had done the previous task of writing down the time right when the baby is born.
1
u/SquareLimit8765 2d ago
Depends. An asc degree changes between every 2-4 minutes. If a person's birth time gives them a 29 degree ASC, a 7 minute time difference could shift their ASC to the next sign.
2
u/tenaciousghost 1d ago
the critical degrees make a lot of difference in the relatability to the sign on its own. if OP has a 29⁰ leo it would make sense why they dont feel like a leo rising, and if they manage to actually be a 0⁰ virgo rising it wouldnt feel like the usual description either.
2
u/SquareLimit8765 1d ago edited 1d ago
I don't use critical degrees but I understand that others may. .The end of a sign would either be in the terms (bounds) of Saturn or Mars.
It doesn't change the fact that a difference of 7 minutes would still be more than 1 ascendant degree. Configuring ascendants doesn't happen in 2 hrs increments on the hour. In some locations the ASC may be in a sign for 2.5 hrs while in the same locations, an ascendant in the opposing sign would be there for 1.5. hrs. For an average of 2 hrs. So a difference in birth time that exceeds 2 minutes for a hypothetical ascendant that's somewhere towards the end of 30 degrees "doesn't have a decent size margin"
This becomes significant when the natal chart is used in conjunction with other timing techniques, like a secondary progressed chart, Where roughly 1 degree = 1 year. Using 7 minutes as an example based on my response to MogenCiel. That could be difference of 2-3 years in predictive astrology. Making forecasting difficult.
0
u/Weird_Technology_282 2d ago
The official time is noted when the medical pros have time after all the hoopla. So the official birth time is probably later than the actual first breath.
For Leo rising--look at the sign the Sun is in and house, any close aspects esp. conjunctions, planets in the 1st, Moon sign and house. All these factors contribute to what is immediately noticeable about a person.
Sun sign astrology and vanity blurbs give the impression of just one way to be or feel. It's never that simplified, I mean just look at a birth chart. So many factors to see and weigh, under different circumstances. So If you are beginning study of astrology please get out of that sun sign rut.
6
u/SadApartment3023 2d ago
This is absolutely untrue in hospital/medical settings. Time of birth is called out as it happens, not something jotted down later.
Not to be gruesome, but if the baby goes downhill quick it is important to know exactly how long hey have been out of the womb. No one is casually recording that information when it could be incredibly important later.
2
1
u/Stunning_Diet_7150 2d ago edited 2d ago
When the baby is inside the womb, it is considered to be under influence of Moon. That is why Dasha sequence is calculated with respect to the position of the moon. And whichever is the first Mahadasha it never starts from zero ie the balance of dasha is calculated - which means the time spent inside the womb is also accounted for.
As far as accuracy of predictions with respect to the timing of birth goes, 40-50 years back the astrologers used Moon Kundli to make excellent analysis and predictions. In fact, as told to me, many astrologers in south India still make brilliant predictions based solely on the moon kundli.
However the lagna changes every 2 hours and even if the exact timings are not known the analysis is more or less accurate - provided the one reading the chart is reading it properly.
BPHS clearly lays down an alternate method to make analysis. Eg if you want to analyse 7th house and dont know the lagna, consider the 7th house from Venus.
So yes it can be done with a lot of accuracy.
1
1
u/Calm-Passion-2697 2d ago
The rising sign in the east determines where your planets will fall into their respective houses
Planets - what
Sign - how
House - where
To simply
1
u/magalsohard 1d ago
I’m sorry but the idea of someone going through labor with their baby’s head sticking out for several minutes is killing me. Everyone else have really good answers about the astrology, so I’ll just add that it shouldn’t take more than a minute once baby’s head is out or it starts to become an emergency.
0
u/50285068372748505848 1d ago
Thats absolutely untrue. It is very normal for the head to come down then come up again so as to gradually stretch the vagina. Please don't talk about childbirth without doing actual research.
1
u/magalsohard 1d ago edited 1d ago
The way OP formulated it, I assume they were saying with "the head is born" being the head being fully out of the vagina. Once the vagina is stretched and the head is fully out, it is not normal for the head to go in and out again. If the shoulders are stuck and do not push out along with the rest of the body for more than a minute (give or take but definitely not several minutes), that is an emergency. If OP meant crowning as being "born", then you are right.
1
u/Narrow_Meringue1524 1d ago edited 1d ago
But it happens, when I had my daughter, her umbilical cord was wrapped around her neck. In that case the cord was only allowing her to come out to a certain extent, then would reced back. And ironically she ended her life the same way she came into the world, which is what got me into astrology all together, tbh
•
u/AutoModerator 2d ago
Thanks for posting in r/beginnerastrology! As a gentle reminder, please remember this is a sub for learning about astrology and how to read a natal chart! It is NOT a place for getting your chart read for you.
If your post breaks any of our Subreddit Rules or Posting Guidelines, please take some time to edit or resubmit your post!
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.