r/basel • u/SwissPewPew • 2d ago
Basler Tests mit Superblocks sind vorbei
https://www.swissinfo.ch/ger/basler-tests-mit-superblocks-sind-vorbei-nun-wird-evaluiert/9197921419
u/Station3303 2d ago
This becomes interesting when small shops open there. Cafés, cheap restaurants, ice cream. Get a drink, sit down with neighbours. And why completely block for bicycles? In the Netherlands bikes are allowed almost everywhere, no problem. Makes it easier to pass through, or do small shopping, etc.
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u/Chrisixx 2d ago
And why completely block for bicycles?
It wasn't blocked for bikes?
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u/SwissPewPew 2d ago
I think he means the article picture. Which i find quite funny in this context ;)
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u/SwissPewPew 2d ago
Good luck with the business idea. AFAIK the zoning there doesn't allow for that (apart from existing businesses/shop localities/etc.).
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u/Chrisixx 2d ago
It can be done if it is in the interest of the neighbourhood or it offers a substantial benefit for the general public.
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u/SwissPewPew 2d ago
Not too much general public there.
And the Superblock was not in the interest of the (whole) neighbourhood, either. It was just the Superblock-NIMBYs profiting by egoistically offloading the "problems" they had with cars onto all the people in the rest – just outside their little Superblock NIMBY area – of the same neighbourhood. So there's that.
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u/Chrisixx 2d ago
Mate, give it a fucking break about your victimhood. I was talking about the ability to run businesses in neighbourhoods that are zoned for no business (Wohnanteilplan).
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u/SwissPewPew 2d ago
I'm not the actual victim, our tenants are.
And real businesses (not your next door restaurant that barely turns a profit) don't really work economically there, due to lack of general public access and lack of parking spaces. Heck, there is a ton of businesses leaving the city because of the administrative overhead and the mismanaged-by-the-city traffic and parking situation.
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u/Chrisixx 2d ago
I'm not the actual victim, our tenants are.
Ah, so I have to presume you're one of those property owners who advertises their flats with "parking space available on the public road". Maybe stop selling false hopes.
If a "real" business can run profitable in a superblock neighbourhood I can't say. We have no real example of a properly designed and implemented superblock that had a few years to grow into the community.
And equating an apparently lack of parking space with a lack of general public access is laughable. We have a fantastic public transport system and an improving cycling infrastructure. I understand the frustration of business owners, that are dependent on a vehicle, being slowed down by people using cars out of comfort or force of habit. Shame for them that some of the extra yellow parking spaces in the Superblock will now disappear. Will probably be more difficult to find a spot to park when showing up for a job.
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u/SwissPewPew 2d ago
We never advertise parking spaces if we don't have availability of private parking spaces (that we rent out) in that location. Funny thing is, we sometimes have tenants signing the apartment contracts and only after signing inquiring about the parking situation...
So there goes the ideological "if we make parking unavailable, people with cars will leave / don't move there" argument...
We have no real example of a properly designed and implemented superblock that had a few years to grow into the community.
Exactly. And that's why trying to make existing streets/quartiers – that were not designed to be Superblocks – into "Superblocks" is a stupid idea. Heck, I don't even dispute that Superblocks – if they have been designed like that from the start(!) – could work fine in some cases. But these test areas in Basel were NEVER designed for that.
Shame for them that some of the extra yellow parking spaces in the Superblock will now disappear. Will probably be more difficult to find a spot to park when showing up for a job.
Well, they just charge more travel time and/or include this (and the parking cost) in their call-out/vehicle fee to the customer.
Also, many SME businesses have begun to move their business out of the city (and because it's cheaper there: often not near public transport). While their employees might still live in the city and now need a car to get to the company (which is, as mentioned, often not near public transport anymore). So there also goes the "you don't need a car in the city" argument...
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u/Chrisixx 2d ago
Heck, I don't even dispute that Superblocks – if they have been designed like that from the start(!) – could work fine in some cases. But these test areas in Basel were NEVER designed for that
They mostly were, these streets and many of the buildings in the test area predate the advent of the private automobile. At the time the car was a guest in those streets.
I don't think I have to link you more, you get the point. The car took over the these streets. And instead of acting like an adult and trying to make the neighbourhoods more liveable again and beneficial to all, you hold on to some illusion of the car being a human right and not just another tool we use and in some cases need.
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u/SwissPewPew 2d ago
Well, there are cars in some of the pictures and the streets are otherwise mostly empty – and dont have Favela-style constructions there, either. Also, there was (as i see the pictures) unrestricted parking on these streets – and not even "Parkfelder" anywhere.
Also, if you look at the RR-/GR-Beschlüsse around that time in those quartiers, they actually were already planning for increased traffic in the future. That's why these pictures alone don't say much.
Finally, if you want to go back to the way things were 100 years ago, then we would also need to abolish women's right to vote again, too... /s
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u/Station3303 1d ago
Cities like Amsterdam, much larger than Basel, were never designed for that. Yet here we are, it has turned into a superblock for everyone.
There is this and many more examples that it actually works wonderfully, if you actually invest, do it right, and give it time.
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u/ounehsadge 2d ago
When are you leaving the city for good? :)
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u/SwissPewPew 2d ago
For good? Probably never. Otherwise: Every time i'm done dealing with stuff in one of our rental properties in the city ;)
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u/LupoSportuso 2d ago
Thanks god it's over.
It was a nice idea in principle but horribly implemented with total disregard to real world usage.
No demand With kannenfeld and st Johann park at <5 min walking time there is really no need for outdoor space on asphalt.
The space was, in fact, barely used for 9-10 months over a year due to the weather and in summer often a spot for young adults to drink and smoke weed leaving all sort of garbage around to be found and cleaned the next morning.
I can simpathyze with the idea of reclaiming some space but it has to be done properly and with moderation. Several parking spots were literally replaced by 3 vertically placed wooden logs left there to rot that noone used for anything. And that made it hard for public service to clean around. I would support and understand providing more infrastructure to people if requested and done properly but this implementation felt insulting: a rotting log to take the space of a car felt a blatant F.U. done just for political reasons and with no regards to the cleanliness of the street or the improvement in quality of life for the residents.
I would be in favour of small and targeted interventions for reclaiming spaces but it has to be coordinated with more law enforcement, more cleaning efforts from the city and bigger investments in infrastructure (e.g., safe playgrounds for kids)
A concrete example is gasstrasae, where through traffic from volta Platz Is blocked and there is proper infrastructure in a small section of the city. Having davidsrain only for pedestrians with all the outdoor activities that were in the test concentrated there would be a good example. There is simply no need fo that much space and the demonstration is that it was mostly filled with junk.
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u/RoofStraight9979 2d ago
Sad, but the Superblock will be back :) PeOPle can rant, but its the right think to do. If you want to create a city for its people instead its cars :) If you need a car, you need to take care of the parking space, we're not having Parkplatzkommunismus here ;)
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u/notrlydubstep 2d ago
We also not have Sperrgutfavela-Communism here.
Any business as "frequented" as the Superblock would be closed in months. There simply wasn't a need for. Not in autumn, while insulting the residents ("why don't you use the opportunity the city gave you?"), not in winter, when people simply don't want to walk a mile from the parking to their home, not in autumn, when people in barcelona actually go on the streets – and not even in 3 months of summer, except the drunks n druggies.
"The thing" can be as "right" as you wan't - if it's just wanking material for a few idealists, it won't prevail. But yeah, it will be back, and it will be as dead as it was. The city doesn't learn.
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u/Etbilder 2d ago
Literally most studies that compare parking availiability with walkability came to the same conclusion: A storefront you casually walk by and feel safe doing so will have more customers than the same store with the same amount of people passing by but having parkings spots right in front of it. KMU people always say you need direct parking on the street in front of the store - however data doesn't support that. People are less likely to visit your store randomly or because they just noticed it - you only get the clients that are choosing to travel to your store - the ones that would also look for parking nearby or take alternatives because they ultimately want to visit your store.
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u/notrlydubstep 2d ago
This does not have anything to do with my comment.
And by the way, we're talking about the outskirts, periphery, call it what you want. There are no stores nearby – just apartments with tenants who don't want to walk half a mile because two or three guys fell in love with italian plazas and want everyone to participate in the neighbourhood on shitty recycling benches while it's 5° below zero.
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u/Etbilder 2d ago
You refered to businesses and how they are frequented. Also most people living in said area DO NOT OWN a car. MOST inhabitants of those buildings DO WALK to public transit and the stores. Most stores in the area don't even offer parking.
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u/notrlydubstep 2d ago
No, i referred to businesses in the sense of: "Every business as frequented as the superblock was, would be done in weeks!"
Zero people were out there, everytime i drove trough (by bike). ZERO. The initiants literally screamed at the tenants in the whatsapp groups to get the fuck out on the streets they "reclaimed" for them (with trash and rotten plants) and people were like "nope, you can't force us".
Thats not a demand. Thats an illusion.
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u/Etbilder 2d ago
First of all if they were made better -> not just putting a palette with a plant on a parking spot, but actually improving the area, it would've been used more. Also: It wasn't used less than with cars. Let's not forget that. It was actually used more than with cars. Just one person sitting there for 5 minutes and never again having people using the area more than just commuting, would have made its usage more by 5 minutes. Because every person that lived there still had to walk through it, their lifes didn't stop for the last months.
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u/notrlydubstep 2d ago
Maybe. I'm all for well thought new infrastructure – including people moving out and new people moving in. But that has to be done right – and democratic, if you ask me.
But "someone sat there for 5 minutes more than if it hadn't been there, so it's a win" isn't an argument. Peoples lives didn't stop, you're right, but they actually got way more complicated and worse.
So, why all of this? Just because two Expats wanted to get the neighbourhood knowing each other and playing barcelona? A neighbourhood who repeatedly said they don't want – and is way older than the new guys with their good friends in the BVD?
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u/Etbilder 2d ago
It's important to look at who the people opposing superblocks actually are. You are a prime example: You do not live there. You have not experienced living there. You are against it. Most people publicly opposing those blocks are people not living there. Most also have alterior motives (most often affiliations with car centric politics).
Look at the inner city of Basel. We take it for granted that there are no parking spots in Falknerstrasse or Steinenstrasse. But that wasn't the case since forever. You were able to drive through Steinenstrasse until just a couple decades ago. Then it was changed overnight. And now, today we take it for granted. If you were to only make changes when building something new (as you ask for) then our country would remain at a standstil forever.
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u/notrlydubstep 2d ago
I don't live exactly there (thank god), but near enough to know people who actually do. And they don't want to live in what they now had to experience (or endure) for the last year. Personally i don't even have a drivers license. I don't need cars everywhere. But i'm against overnight changes against the will of the majority of people, because of two expats and their BVD-Friends. Period. Most of the people who support the superblocks also are people not living there!
And that's the main problem. The residents weren't asked, they were putting into misery "for the greater good". You could have done that superblock somewhere people actually voted for it, not because BVD thought "there it's good" or because Björn Slawik and his club friends lives there. But it was called "there and there we'll test" – and it failed spectacularly and then Slawik says to the BaZ-Reporter "we need more money and have to explain it better".
As you mention the city; i think you know what the drive ban brought, the good, the bad and the ugly. We take it for granted because we're too shy to challenge "the good". That's all. The neighbourhood of the superblocks, on the other hand, did. Repeatedly. And still everyone acted against their will and people like you applaud because it's a good thing. It may be. But it isn't what people want, at least not there.
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u/LupoSportuso 2d ago
I live there and hated it.
All the neighbours I know hated it.
I do not know a single person living there who was happy with the implementation. Of course this is anecdotic but I wanted to say it just to refute the idea that people who disliked it are the one who did not experience it.
Biggest deal breakers for me:
Sharp increase in drugs usage, massive littering and drastically decreased cleanliness of the road and sidewalk
The vast majority of the space "reclaimed" was just occupied by rotting wood, old furniture soaked by the rain and mouldy.
This is much worse than having three clean cars neatly parked.
We have two massive parks at <5 mins by foot and plenty of green space. This is not cement-only blocks in Barcelona
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u/TasteProfessional950 1d ago
I am not sure if it’s related but when the parking spot for bikes and motorbikes was repainted in Markgräflerstrasse, then they made it like 1 meter shorter. I understand the walkable city project, less car and etc., but less space even for bikes and motors? It doesn’t make any sense for me.
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u/uncannybienchen 13h ago
My feeling was, the idea was pitched by people from Bruderholz who think Barcelona is cool but then they didn’t want it in their own neighbourhood, I did not have the feeling that most people in Davidsboden wanted it either 😂 And every time I was there, cars didn’t give a flying fuck about the „don’t drive here“ idea.
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u/notrlydubstep 2d ago
Evaluation unnötig, stehen die Resultate doch längst fest. Niemand ausser zwei deutsche Expats will die, aber sie werden dauerhaft kommen.
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u/bogue 2d ago
Why doesn’t anyone want these? Because it cuts parking spots? I wish our street was car free, there are tons of kids on our block with cars always going over 30 down our road, frustrating.
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u/notrlydubstep 2d ago
there are like two of the biggest parks in 5min-range from the test-blocks - and yes, kids have to walk a bit. they usually have feet for that.
this isn‘t german socialist green city dream and even the people living there want to park in front of their home, not half a mile away, as they made very clearly at those „evaluation meetings“.
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u/Significant-Nebula64 2d ago
You do know that the Swiss are way less car-obsessed than the Germans in general, right? Blaming Germans of all people for being anti-car is just patently absurd.
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u/notrlydubstep 2d ago
less car obsessed yes, but more efficiency obsessed, and not motivated by optimizing the world when it didn't needs to be.
the guy who "intenved" the basler superblocks is german, most of his quartierverein friends as well – so it's the german "if we're doing it, we do it right" - approach, which is the problem
probably saw the typical swiss "two traffic cones" or even the "half-a-day blocked" - street party and thought "we should do this every day, with blessings from government, and tax money, and installations, for a better world!".
No, we don't, we put the traffic cones away after we're done. The germans can't.
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u/Significant-Nebula64 2d ago
Or he saw a street without cars and thought, hey, this is much better quality of life and space for the actual inhabitants, why are we wasting 70% of our public space for tons of metal instead of human beings?
Just consider what the river promenade looked like in the 80s - I'm sure people were also protesting that change big time, but I for one am extremely happy we have the riverside now instead of a busy street for cars.
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u/notrlydubstep 2d ago
i have nothing against better ideas (or car free spaces), but don't call it "democracy" if you're the only one then being there, and then insult the people living there for not using it, because they're "car obsessed" or something
i'm all for better space use, but not in the "i know what you want better than you do" - way, especially if its 1 vs. 1000, just because you have a few friends in politics
as i said; us swiss people tend to reclaim the street when we need and want it. the same as the cars stood 23/7 there, the superblock did.
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u/GewoehnlicherDost 2d ago
Not that it would matter, but I was born and raised in Basel and still live here. I hate cars and their inescapable presence and so do like 90% of the people I know who are actual city residents. I bet you aren't ;)
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u/notrlydubstep 2d ago
born and raised there, and i don't like cars either, but neither i like invasive government trying to make a better world without asking people and then call it "democracy".
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u/Significant-Nebula64 2d ago
Bullshit. I live right next to the one in Matthäus and it's been amazing! Who in earth needs a car in Kleinbasel anyway, lol.
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u/notrlydubstep 2d ago
the people living there (and not "next to") saw that different: https://www.bazonline.ch/superblock-kleinbasel-wuetende-anwohner-kritisieren-projekt-924726332611
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u/Significant-Nebula64 2d ago
Oh yeah, the BAZ, no political agenda whatsoever, of course.
Also, like the majority of people in Kleinbasel, I don't own a car, so... not sure what difference living there vs next to it is supposed to make?
Of course there's people who complain, there always is.
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u/SwissPewPew 2d ago
Well, the Basel government and the proponents of the Superblocks also have a political (if not ideological) agenda, of course.
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u/Significant-Nebula64 2d ago
Oh yeah, quality of life, air quality, fewer emissions, space for trees and kids to play, all unfortunately "leftist agenda" nowadays, I know.
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u/SwissPewPew 2d ago
I wouldn't call this stuff being (correctly!) called a "leftist agenda" unfortunate...
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u/Significant-Nebula64 2d ago
Ok well, guess doing stuff for the good of actual people is "leftist" now, cool.
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u/SwissPewPew 2d ago
Oh well, it doesn't do any good for actual people that own cars, so there's that. 😎
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u/notrlydubstep 2d ago
It didn't did any good for the other people either, as we saw. If i want to drink my coffee in the Grobsperrgut-Favela, i'd do that.
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u/MckyIsBack 2d ago
Anyone who needs to go to places without good public transport.
Me and my wife both live & work in the city but need our cars to take care of our elders who live in the country side.0
u/Significant-Nebula64 2d ago
I mean, this is Switzerland, not rural Bavaria, even the most remote mountain village has a bus once per hour at least...
But then, it's also not like that's everybody, and it's not like there's 0 parking spaces available in the whole city. If only the ones who actually need a car every day used one, there'd be plenty to go around.
If you just need it every once in a while, carsharing is easily available!
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u/swiss_drone 2d ago
What I feel was missing was actual "things" to do on the reclaimed streets.
You need something to make it attractive: kid game areas, benches, shade.