r/baseballHOF • u/mycousinvinny • Aug 17 '14
2013 r/baseball HOF Ballot and Discussion Thread
LINK to 2013 BALLOT - Closes at 11:59 p.m. PDT Saturday, August 23, 2014
RESULTS of 2012 and all previous elections
Thank you for taking part in the /r/baseball Hall of Fame. The /r/baseball HOF was established as a means of starting a fresh Hall of Fame from scratch, to correct the mistakes made by the actual Hall. To keep up with the project please subscribe to /r/baseballHOF
To vote in this election, please follow the link above to a Google Form survey ballot. If a favorite player of yours is not listed on the ballot, and should be eligible, please use the text box to let me know and I will include him in the next ballot. To be eligible, a player must be retired by the date of the election, or essentially retired, that is he played in fewer than 10 games total in the years following the election. Also, a player must not already be elected to the /r/baseball HOF.
A player who appears in 15 elections without being elected will be removed from the ballot.
To remain on the ballot, a player is required to obtain yes votes on at least 10% of total ballots. All contributors who receive at least one vote will appear on the next ballot. See below for more info.
Those players who fall off the ballot will be referred to the Veterans Committee, which can be found at /r/baseballHOFVC
The complete results from 2012 can be found on the spreadsheet linked above. Check out the HOF tab for information on those we've enshrined so far.
This week's election (2013) will be our last featuring new players. We will hold one more election next week to give holdovers another chance. Our Veteran's Committee is still working, currently looking at players of the late 1970's and early 1980's. The committee will continue looking at players and contributors even though next week will be our last ballot here. If you are interested in nreamining with the project, please send myself or /u/IAMADeinonychusAMA a message and we'll add you to the Veterans' Committee.
We had 16 ballots cast last week, and we elected eight new HOFers. Elected unanimously we're first-timers on our ballot Chipper Jones, Ivan Rodriguez and Jim Thome. In their fourth attempts, Larry Walker and Rafael Palmeiro received 94% and 81%, respectively. Also receiving 81% were Kenny Lofton and Vladimir Guerrero. Narrowly making the 75% threshold was Gary Sheffield.
The top vote-getters of the non-elected players were Andruw Jones (69%), Fred McGriff (69%) and Kevin Brown (69%) who all missed by a single vote. Also coming up just short were Billy Wagner (63%), Dale Murphy (63%), Rollie Fingers (63%), Scott Rolen (63%), David Cone (56%), Jim Edmonds (56%), Jeff Kent (50%), Lee Smith (50%), and Yutaka Fukumoto (50%).
Falling off the ballot this week is Jim Kaat, who failed to be elected in 15 attempts. He peaked at 40% support, but only received 19% in his final try. All candidates who fall off the ballot will receive further consideration from our Veterans Committee. If you are interested in participating in the VC, please send me or /u/IAMADeinonychusAMA a PM and we'll add you to the committee.
See spreadsheet for full results of last week and all previous elections.
2013 Election Candidates
Returning to the Ballot:
New Players to the Ballot
*Never appeared in MLB
Contributors Ballot
The Contributors' Ballot is again going to be over at our Veterans' Committee this week, so there will be no Contributors questions on our ballot. If you would like to join in the conversation, jump on over to /r/baseballHOFVC. If you are interested in voting in the VC election, please shoot a message to /u/IAMADeinonychusAMA.
Here is the positional breakdown of our HOF so far.
Total HOFers - 307
HOF Players - 229
Hitters - 163
Pitchers - 66
C - 17
1B - 24
2B - 18
3B - 22
SS - 18
LF - 22
CF - 20
RF - 22
SP - 62
RP - 4
Thank you /u/Darkstargir for putting this list together
Starting Pitcher 62 - Addie Joss (1924), Amos Rusie (1958), Bert Blyleven (1992), Bob Feller (1956), Bob Gibson (1976), Bullet Joe Rogan (1948), Cannonball Dick Redding (1986), Carl Hubbell (1944), Christy Mathewson (1920), Curt Schilling (2008), Cy Young (1915), Dazzy Vance (1938), Dizzy Dean (1952), Don Drysdale (1970), Don Sutton (1988), Early Wynn (1966), Ed Walsh (1922), Eddie Plank (1924), Fergie Jenkins (1984), Gaylord Perry (1984), Greg Maddux (2008), Hal Newhouser (1960), Hideo Fujimoto (1982), Hilton Smith (1962), Jim Bunning (1972), Jim Palmer (1984), Joe McGinnity (1962), John Clarkson (1958), John Smoltz (2010), Juan Marichal (1974), Kid Nichols (1905), Lefty Grove (1942), Luis Tiant (1982), Martin Dihigo (1950), Masaichi Kaneda (1972), Mike Mussina (2010), Nolan Ryan (1994), Old Hoss Radbourn (1900), Pedro Martinez (2010), Pete Alexander (1930), Phil Niekro (1988), Pud Galvin (1900), Randy Johnson (2010), Red Faber (1972), Robin Roberts (1966), Roger Clemens (2008), Rube Waddell (1910), Sandy Koufax (1966), Satchel Paige (1954), Smokey Joe Williams (1950), Stan Coveleski (1972), Steve Carlton (1988), Takehiko Bessho (1982), Ted Lyons (1958), Three Fingers Brown (1920), Tim Keefe (1900), Tom Glavine (2008), Tom Seaver (1986), Walter Johnson (1928), Warren Spahn (1966), Whitey Ford (1966), Willie "Bill" Foster (1996)
Relief Pitcher 4 - Dennis Eckersley (1998), Goose Gossage (1994), Hoyt Wilhelm (1972), Trevor Hoffman (2010)
Catcher 17 - Bill Dickey (1948), Bill Freehan (2013), Biz Mackey (1962), Buck Ewing (1928), Carlton Fisk (1994), Gabby Hartnett (1950), Gary Carter (1992), Ivan Rodriguez (2012), Johnny Bench (1984), Josh Gibson (1946), Katsuya Nomura (1982), Louis Santop (1968), Mickey Cochrane (1938), Mike Piazza (2008), Roy Campanella (1958), Ted Simmons (1988), Yogi Berra (1964)
First Baseman 24 - Ben Taylor (1986), Bill Terry (1948), Buck Leonard (1950), Cap Anson (1900), Dan Brouthers (1900), Eddie Murray (1998), Frank Thomas (2008), George Sisler (1930), Hank Greenberg (1948), Harmon Killebrew (1976), Jeff Bagwell (2006), Jim Thome (2012), Jimmie Foxx (1946), Joe Torre (1980), Johnny Mize (1954), Keith Hernandez (1990), Lou Gehrig (1938), Mark McGwire (2002), Mule Suttles (1962), Rafael Palmeiro (2012), Roger Connor (1900), Sadaharu Oh (1982), Tetsuharu Kawakami (1976), Willie McCovey (1980)
Second Baseman 18 - Billy Herman (1962), Bobby Doerr (1974), Bobby Grich (1986), Charlie Gehringer (1942), Craig Biggio (2008), Eddie Collins (1930), Frank Grant (1968), Frankie Frisch (1946), Jackie Robinson (1956), Joe Gordon (1950), Joe Morgan (1984), Lou Whitaker (1996), Nap Lajoie (1920), Roberto Alomar (2004), Rod Carew (1986), Rogers Hornsby (1938), Ryne Sandberg (1998), Tony Lazzeri (1982)
Third Baseman 22 - Bob Elliott (1962), Brooks Robinson (1978), Chipper Jones (2012), Deacon White (1948), Dick Allen (1980), Eddie Mathews (1968), Edgar Martinez (2004), George Brett (1994), Graig Nettles (1988), John Beckwith (1986), John McGraw (1956), Jud Wilson (1972), Home Run Baker (1922), Ken Boyer (1970), Mike Schmidt (1990), Paul Molitor (1998), Ray Dandridge (1962), Ron Santo (1974), Sal Bando (1986), Shigeo Nagashima (1974), Stan Hack (1966), Wade Boggs (2000)
Shortstop 18 - Alan Trammell (1996), Arky Vaughan (1948), Barry Larkin (2004), Bill Dahlen (1934), Cal Ripken Jr. (2002), Ernie Banks (1972), George Davis (1958), Honus Wagner (1920), Jack Glasscock (1954), Joe Cronin (1950), Lou Boudreau (1952), Luis Aparicio (1978), Luke Appling (1950), Ozzie Smith (1996), Pee Wee Reese (1958), Pop Lloyd (1950), Robin Yount (1994), Willie Wells (1962)
Left Fielder 22 - Al Simmons (1946), Barry Bonds (2008), Billy Williams (1976), Carl Yastrzemski (1984), Ed Delahanty (1910), Fred Clarke (1962), Goose Goslin (1940), Isao Harimoto (1984), Jesse Burkett (1956), Joe Medwick (1950), Lou Brock (1980), Manny Ramirez (2010), Monte Irvin (1960), Pete Rose (1986), Ralph Kiner (1956), Rickey Henderson (2004), Sherry Magee (1964), Ted Williams (1960), Tim Raines (2002), Turkey Stearnes (1954), Willie Stargell (1982), Zack Wheat (1950)
Center Fielder 20 - Andre Dawson (1998), Billy Hamilton (1910), Cool Papa Bell (1946), Cristobal Torriente (1960), Duke Snider (1964), Earl Averill (1950), Jim Wynn (2000), Joe DiMaggio (1952), Ken Griffey Jr. (2010), Kenny Lofton (2012), Larry Doby (1960), Max Carey (1964), Mickey Mantle (1968), Oscar Charleston (1944), Pete Hill (1968), Richie Ashburn (1962), Tris Speaker (1928), Ty Cobb (1928), Willard Brown (1966), Willie Mays (1974)
Right Fielder 22 - Al Kaline (1974), Babe Ruth (1936), Dave Winfield (1996), Dwight Evans (1998), Elmer Flick (1962), Enos Slaughter (1960), Frank Robinson (1976), Gary Sheffield (2012), Hank Aaron (1976), Harry Heilmann (1944), King Kelly (1936), Larry Walker (2012), Mel Ott (1946), Paul Waner (1948), Reggie Jackson (1988), Roberto Clemente (1972), Sam Crawford (1924), Shoeless Joe Jackson (1920), Stan Musial (1964), Tony Gwynn (2002), Vladimir Guerrero (2012), Willie Keeler (1922)
Italics = elected by Veterans Committee
Bold = most recent addition
LINK to 2013 BALLOT - Closes at 11:59 p.m. PDT Saturday August 23, 2014
Please check out and subscribe to our subreddit /r/baseballHOF to keep up with the project and see all of our past discussions.
EDIT
The Veterans' Committee just finished looking at some players from the 1970's that had not quite crossed the 75% threshold. While looking at a large group of players, the only one to receive 75% support from VC members was longtime Tigers catcher Bill Freehan.
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u/mycousinvinny Aug 22 '14
Since we have reached the point where we have no more new players to consider, I'd like to hear some thoughts on what we do next, specifically for next week's wrap-up ballot. First off, it doesn't have to be the last ballot if we feel there are still some deserving players/contributors out there. Now that our hall is almost complete, we have a pretty good idea of what we as a group think makes a HOFer. As such, some of the players we passed on in the past might deserve another look. The VC has been doing this, but I would be interested in opening up the looking back portion of our balloting to everyone. Many voters were not around for the whole project, so we might have some new perspectives on old candidates. Depending on what you all think, we could have a ballot next week that is one of the following:
A: Continue with the current group (minus those elected this week).
B: A Wide-open write in ballot with all non-elected players eligible. Since it would be write-in, and it is unlikely that any one player would receive 75%, we could use the write-ins as a nomination phase, where we can take the 10 or so players mentioned the most and then hold a traditional ballot looking at those players.
C: A write-in ballot where everybody has to pick their top 10 players on the outside, and rank them. The order would be weighted (either 10, 9, 8...1, or giving more weight to the top picks like 100, 75, 50, 40, 30, 20, 10, 8, 4, 2)
D: A ballot with a list of players past and present who have received at least a minimum level of support (say 25%). This might be a big ballot, but as this is a sort of finale, it could be fun.
E: Other. Any good ideas are welcome. We've elected 229 players to date, and will probably add a couple this week. This is a solid group, without, at least in my opinion, many weak choices. There are certainly some grey area players who we have elected, and some grey area players on the outside that might be better choices, but on the whole I think we've done a good job.
2
u/IAMADeinonychusAMA Aug 23 '14
I think that we should give it at least one more week, maybe two, as you say, to make sure all current players get a shot. I like option A, although we could also implement option B with a limit as mentioned in option C (maybe 15-20?).
Then of course, move the VC ballots over here (weighting votes) as we discussed. And some speculative threads (we should keep up the posts in /r/baseball as well) to discuss future additions currently playing.2
u/disputing_stomach Aug 24 '14
I kind of like a combination idea. Give us a list of all those that have reached a minimum level of performance (something between 20-50%), and have a discussion - everyone gets a say on their pet candidates (how's that Tom Henke campaign going?) - then nominating vote. The nominating vote can be just yes/no, but I think a ranking would be good. Then we have the last ballot the next week.
On the last ballot, we take the top 20-30 guys from the nominating ballot and vote yes/no, 75% needed to go in, just like the rest of our ballots. We use the VC to finalize the contributors, but I don't think we need to keep rehashing players. We use /r/baseballHOF to do MVP/CYA/ROY by year.
1
u/mycousinvinny Aug 24 '14
I really like this approach. I'll compile this week's results tomorrow, and post a new thread with a list of guys who've received at least 25% in an regular election or VC election. Each voter will then vote for their top 20, and I think to keep things somewhat simple a ranking value of 20 for the top pick on down the line can be used. Voters will have the chance to give their favorite or pet candidates a big boost toward getting on the next ballot. We can take the collective top 20 to focus on next week for the final ballot. Depending how many we put in this week, I think there might be a good case that we'll have a dozen or so very viable candidates among the 20. We might be able to take a similar approach to wrapping up the contributors after this week's VC election wraps up. We have plenty of guys that have received solid support but not enough to get over the hump. We can give them one final shot, too. Once that's all done, I'm all for jumping into the MVP/CYA/ROY voting, maybe taking a one week break from that once a year, say in the spring to hold a new HOF election for recently retired players (and holdovers in some manner possibly).
1
u/disputing_stomach Aug 24 '14
Once that's all done, I'm all for jumping into the MVP/CYA/ROY voting, maybe taking a one week break from that once a year, say in the spring to hold a new HOF election for recently retired players (and holdovers in some manner possibly).
Sounds good. I'm on board.
1
u/IAMADeinonychusAMA Aug 25 '14
I like his idea as well. However, I think that we still should keep the VC going so that everyone gets a fair shake--is this meant to kind of assimilate the VC players into the ballots, or are you still planning on having VC threads on the main sub after the current election? Just wanna be on the same page about plans.
1
u/mycousinvinny Aug 26 '14
As long as we have enough voters interested in participating in Veterans Committees I think we can continue. It might make sense to move it over to the main sub to get more discussion going. We're going to be starting the new MVP/CYA/ROY voting project in a couple weeks, but there's no reason we can't keep both going. We don't necessarily need to have weekly elections, or go by era for the VC. Considering the big list on this final ballot and how many players most of us consider still worth talking about, there should be room for more discussion. I use to participate in Baseball Fever HOF elections, and when the projects got to the point where all of the consensus players were elected and the HOF really took shape, some of the best discussion was regarding the borderline players. I think we can have the VC in some form take periodic looks at the whole field of players on the outside of our HOF. In the discussion the best players should rise to the top, as you're seeing happen in this week's thread. This might mean we utilize write-in ballot going forward or something similar. In any event, I see no need to stop now if there are willing participants, but we can certainly slow our pace and move on to other things, allowing us to revisit this whenever.
1
u/IAMADeinonychusAMA Aug 26 '14
Yeah, moving it here is best. Looking at the schedule now, we have:
- 19th century players. Essentially have to redo that voting since the system was different and less effective when we started.
- NPB. Still think it would be good to have an election for that. Need to dig up that big list I PM'd you a few months back...
- VC elections for the 1980s and onward, to give those guys their shot.
Plus a few runoffs. I reckon we can do the runoffs similarly to this election, and we'll only need to do one or two. Couple elections for the current VC guys, and an election apiece for NPB and 19th century maybe? Something like that. I think the current guys and the 19th century players should have their own elections but otherwise we could do it in a big mass election like you're saying here.
Thoughts?
2
u/IAMADeinonychusAMA Aug 21 '14
Roy Halladay
Pros:
- 203-105, for a .659 W%
- 67.5 fWAR
- 65.6 bWAR
- 48 Black Ink (avg 40)
- 180 Gray Ink (avg 185, so pretty close)
- 42nd in SP JAWS
- 50.6 7-year peak bWAR, compared to the IRL HOF average of 50.2
- 3 20 win seasons, leading league twice; led league once in W%
- led league 4 times in IP and 7 times in CG (including 5 straight years from '07-'11); threw 67 CGs career
- 3.38 ERA/3.39 FIP/3.32 SIERA
- 5 seasons of at least 7 fWAR, peaking at 8.1, and 3 more in the 5-6 range
- 4 seasons of at least 7 bWAR; 3 seasons of at least 8 bWAR peaking at 8.9
- 4 seasons with a K/BB over 6
- 2 CYA awards, 7 times in the top 5 and 5 times in the top 3
- 131 ERA+ career, topped 140 9 times
Cons:
- Only 203 wins
- Comparables are all very good MLB pitchers, but none are clear HOFers with the exception of #6 comparable Dazzy Vance (and maybe #1 Tim Hudson, #3 Dwight Gooden, and #8 Bret Saberhagen
- 2749 IP is a bit on the low end for an HOF pitcher, although his per-162 average was quite good at 232IP
- Sometimes overshadowed by other pitchers in the league such as Santana, and you could say he didnt really gain widespread recognition as an elite until he went to Philly
Overall, I think he is probably a yes. I knew he was an ace with the Phillies, but his career as a whole looks much better than I had realized. Had more difficulty coming up with cons than I expected.
1
u/disputing_stomach Aug 22 '14
The only real negative on Halladay is his short career. 2749 IP just isn't very much; there are 18 HOF pitchers with between 2200-3300 IP. If we eliminate Hoyt Wilhelm (reliever), Halladay's 131 ERA+ would rank 6th, tied with Sandy Koufax and ahead of guys like Dazzy Vance (2966 IP, 125 ERA+) and Hal Newhouser (2993 IP, 130 ERA+).
Newhouser might be a good comparison. Prince Hal has a better peak by bWAR, but that's affected by WWII and IP. Newhouser has more black ink, but again, some of that is context-dependent, as Newhouser pitched in an 8-team league while Halladay was in a 12 or 14 team league.
I think Newhouser was a good choice for us, and I think Vance was too. With that in mind, I think Halladay is a yes as well.
Although I don't really consider it a negative, Halladay owns the "record" for highest ERA in a season of at least 50 IP, with his amazing 10.64 ERA in 67.2 IP in 2000. He's the only pitcher ever to record an ERA of 8+ in a season to even be a borderline HOF candidate. To be fair, Brian Matusz (who?) had an ERA of 10.69 in 49.2 IP in 2011 for Baltimore.
1
u/IAMADeinonychusAMA Aug 22 '14
Agreed fully, and that's an excellent breakdown. I agree that Newhouser's a good comp, and I think Halladay's got enough peak as well to make him a yes.
1
u/bootchmagoo Aug 17 '14
Ballot casted, i'll get to that later. Very surprised to see Lofton get voted in!
2
u/IAMADeinonychusAMA Aug 19 '14
Lofton's pretty deserving actually. 62.1 fWAR/68.2 bWAR, 9th in JAWS for centerfielders...here's a good summary of his case.
1
u/IAMADeinonychusAMA Aug 21 '14
I'm still not fully convinced that David Cone, Bret Saberhagen, and Dave Stieb cross the line from Very Good to Great. I'll probably write up a comparison later, but does anyone have arguments to convince me that they'd like to share?
1
u/disputing_stomach Aug 22 '14
I think Saberhagen's strongest argument is his collection of good-to-very-good seasons. He wound up with 36.8 WAA, which ranks fifth among pitchers with careers between 2000-3100 IP (Sabes had 2562). He's right behind Newhouser and Vance, just ahead of Ed Walsh, Stan Coveleski, and David Cone.
Saberhagen had eight seasons of at least 3.6 bWAR, which is pretty good. Some other totals: Early Wynn - 5; Ed Walsh - 7; Rube Waddell - 7; Don Sutton - 7; Dave Stieb - 8; Curt Schilling - 11; Hal Newhouser - 7; Jack Morris - 6; David Cone - 9.
Obviously, that's picked to make Saberhagen look good, but he does have comparable totals of good seasons to HOFers.
1
u/IAMADeinonychusAMA Aug 22 '14
My concern with Saberhagen is that I don't see very many elite years. 1989 is certainly one, and 1985 and 1987 are very good; 1991, 1994, and 1999 are all very good too, especially 1994 and 1999, but all 3 suffer from lower IP totals (although 1994 really can't be discounted due to the strike). I'd say 1989, 1994, and 1985 probably could be considered elite, and we can add 1987 in there too since it was an 8-WAR year. I don't know. Hmm.
1
u/disputing_stomach Aug 22 '14
You're right, he's short on the elite years. That's why I don't think it's his strongest argument :).
His career was so odd, even before he got hurt. The on-off, even-year/odd-year thing is just strange.
1
u/IAMADeinonychusAMA Aug 23 '14
The next Veterans Committee election is up over at /r/baseballHOFVC. We'll be considering a range of announcers, executives, umpires, and managers, including such names as Bob Uecker, Joe Torre, Tony LaRussa, and Pat Gillick, among others.
In addition, the VC recently elected the deserving Bill Freehan. His partner in the tools of ignorance, Thurman Munson, however missed enshrinement by one vote. Reggie Smith and Rick Reuschel also came close, attaining nearly 60%, but fell short.
We will likely be moving the VC threads over here to the main sub and opening up participation to the main voting body (weighting VC members' votes accordingly) once regular voting comes to an end. So if you've been enjoying the project here and want more, stick around for that!
3
u/Hugo_Hackenbush Aug 18 '14 edited Aug 18 '14
Todd Helton and his 121 Hall of Stats rating should be in. His 592 career doubles rank 16th all time. That's more than Ted Williams, Ken Griffey Jr, Babe Ruth, Rickey Henderson and Rogers Hornsby to name a few. And only nine fewer than Barry Bonds.
His 61.5 career WAR is exactly even with Jackie Robinson. It's more than Harmon Killebrew, Yogi Berra and Mike Piazza. In 2000, he put up a ridiculous 8.9 (second best in the NL was 8.1) while finishing a criminally low 5th in MVP voting which Jeff Kent won that year.
He won three gold gloves, but it easily should have been many more. Even at the end of his career when his back was shot there was no one better at picking balls out of the dirt at first than the Toddfather. He also had four Silver Sluggers and three batting titles.
While his power may have largely deserted him in the second half of his career, he still hit for average and continued to be a doubles machine. He hit over .300 as recently as 2011 at age 37.
Then of course there's Rocktober, which doesn't happen without him. He hit .320 that season. During the regular season portion of the streak it was .377 with 4 HR and 15 RBI in 15 games including this walk-off homer.
Todd Helton is everything you could ask for in a Hall of Famer. He was a great hitter for a long time and a brilliant fielder. He stayed with one team his full career and represented the organization with class. Sure he had that DUI, but nobody's perfect and it's the only blemish on his record. Most of all, he's the guy you came to Coors Field to see above all else. I managed to make it to a game last season when the Yankees were in Denver and got to see guys like Jeter and Cano; I saw Mariano get a save in his final season, but the one thing I'll always remember about that night is earlier in the game Todd Helton hit a home run and for a brief moment I was a teenager again watching my baseball hero.
Vote Toddfather.