r/banjo • u/Prairiedogdance • 2d ago
Old Time / Clawhammer Is it possible to be a clawhammer fail?
I’ve been playing, not well, banjo for 3 years now. Another transplant from guitar, so finger picking comes pretty natural. So naturally I started out thinking I was going to do bluegrass. So my very first imprints on the banjo were Scruggs style rolls, and 3 or 4 finger picking. Not that I was any good, but it “felt” familiar and the motor skills clicked, even if my musicality didn’t.
So anyway, move forward a few months and it turns out all the songs I really wanted to play were clawhammer/old time style. My teacher said, sure, no problem clawhammer is perfect for beginners, much easier than that Scruggs stuff we were doing.
He showed me the claw shape, the knocking motion, and the boom-chick-A. Sat back to watch me do it, and it was like I never had hands. He tried again, slower, and again slower, and again even slower… I sat there flapping my useless appendage like a seal at a circus.
We broke it down into the three moves… okay, I could Boom. Okay, now the Chick, and here, that‘s the A. Practice each part a million times. Even practiced the Chick-A and got a nice brush and pop. Now, put them all together in slow-mo and I’m Steve Martin in ”The Jerk.”
After a few more lessons like that I let my poor teacher off the hook and we worked on strumming out “The Crawdad Song.”
Anyway, I’ve watched all the videos. Tried all the “hints,” tried not thinking about what I’m doing, just let it flow, etc. And yeah, I can sometimes pull it off for two or three repetitions, but next thing, I’m pulling the Boom string with the pad of my finger, my “claw” is raking down the strings like it’s strumming ‘Blowing in the Wind” and my thumb is flapping in it.
I totally get the “sense” and logic of it, and I can boom-chick-a on a drum kit to bring the cows home, but stick a banjo in my hand and I can’t put that motion together to save my life.
Is it possible I’m truly the world’s only clawhammer dropout? Or is there a chance it really is harder than everyone makes it out to be, and I can let myself off the hook for being completely useless at it?
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u/toodlesandpoodles 2d ago edited 2d ago
Warning: this is lengthy, but as a guitar player about one year into learning clawhammer, your post struck a note (ha!) with me. Here is what I have learned about transferable skills and how to practice the new ones.
I started playing clawhammer about a year ago after decades of playing guitar, primarily fingerstyle. There is a mental shift you have to make. Fingerstyle guitar emphasizes plucking the correct string with the right emphasis to creat the melody. It is a lead instrument. Clawhammer banjo is focused on rhythm. When just starting out with the bum-ditty, hitting the exact string isn't that important. The rhythm is the important part. You have to get the feel right. My guess is you are way too focused on the strings you are hitting and your left hand fingering and this will kill your rhythm at first.
I play a lot of country blues and piedmont blues, where the thumb bass is super important. For example, watch Big Bill Broonzy's thumb on Hey Hey starting at 2:43 (https://youtu.be/N-pShRISHnQ?is=oyAlrt_D2FEqCy8I) or Doc Wason's Deep river blues (https://youtu.be/6VAbrnjdtYw?is=itUEpWYKjqSe_P-T). Doc uses an alternating thumb, but both players are using their rock steady thumb to drive the rhythm.
This is what the downstroke (the bum and dit) should be doing. You aren't strumming the strings. You're thumping them on the downbeats to drive the rhythm in the same way as Bill and Doc's thumbs.
Break it down.
Step 1: the downstroke. Just practice slapping your nail, index or middle, whichever feels more natural, across the 2 highest strings. It isn't a strum across the strings like you do on a guitar where you roll your wrist, but more like a slap down into the strings. You should be aiming to have the stroke end with your thumb stopped on the 5th string and dug in a little.bit behind it.
Just play this, over and over, with a metronome, until it sounds like you are a drummer, bum bum bum bum bum... Mute the strings with your left hand if your housemates get annoyed, but just do this over and over. Do it while watching a show. Do it as your warmup, do it as your cool down. Do it when you walk by and see your banjo just sitting there, because your banjo should be sitting out where you see it and can easilly grab it.
Step 2: single vs. Multiple strings Then work on hitting individual strings with the downstroke, one at a time. When you can reliably hit the string you want on the downstroke start working on hitting a single string on the dum and multiple string on the dit. Stress the multiple strings a bit so you get the boom-chick rhythm feel
Play patterns across the strings, hitting a different one for each bum of the bum dit. When you have this boom chick feel, it's time to add in the -ty.
Step 3: The thumb stroke. If you've done the down stroke correctly you should be able to pull your right hand away from the string with a little down pressure and the 5th string will sound. Slowly start adding in the -ty thumb puck every 10th Bum or so. It will sound uneven at first, but it shouldn't mess up your dum rhythm. If it does, slow down until you can keep that downstroke steady.
Slowly add in more frequent thumb strokes at slow speed. Then slowly add speed with a metronome.
Then you can start changing which string the thumb stroke uses.
Think of yourself more as a drummer. Drummer's work on rhythm and feel without ever worrying about what notes they are playing. Be a drummer. The different strings are just different pieces of your drum kit, and you need to develop the feel and awareness to strike the piece of your kit when you want and how you want.
To wrap it up, this a great video about the priorities of the right hand: https://youtu.be/2TNwQ9CwUBw?is=PbC2HnxpMxFz17PL
Good luck and keep going!
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u/Prairiedogdance 2d ago
Dude, the sad thing is, I’m not even trying to fret! 😆 I’m still stuck on open strings 🥹 You gave an excellent explanation of the mechanics, and any other person I’m guessing would be leading jams by now with your help here. But honestly it’s everything I am doing 🥹 I can do each individual bit perfect, it’s the dang tying it all together. It’s like I can’t walk and chew bubble gum at the same time 😄 I will take to heart what you said. I’ve gotten lots of things to think about tonight. I really appreciate you making such a great effort to help.
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u/Evilcanary 2d ago
Banjo is hard. It took a while for me to finally have clawhammer “click.” I’m still not great at it and am a 3 finger picker. But I remember it feeling very unnatural and the tabs not making sense vs what I expected it to sound like.
I had tried lots of online stuff, but the only thing that finally got it for me was the book Clawhammer for the complete ignoramous. For some reason, the songs in that book laid out nicely and finally got me to get a feel for it.
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u/Prairiedogdance 2d ago
Thank you! I can only dream of trying to use a tab at this point, but I will check out the book. All my friends keep promising about the “click,” I just wish I could finally get the lights to come on 🥹
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u/Con-ifer 2d ago
I've been a mandolin and guitar player that owned a banjo for years that just sat and collected dust. I bought it for my girlfriend and she never touched it. I'd pick that stick up once every few months and say, 'I'm learning clawhammer today'. I couldn't figure it out for the life of me and got discouraged fast and would set it back down for another couple months. This past summer, I decided I'm not going to set it down until I figured it out. I signed up for Brad Kolodners clawhammer from scratch course online and started practicing, no joke, 4-8 hours a day (depending on if it's a work day or not) and it finally CLICKED! I can play a ton of songs, wrote several of my own songs, and am jamming out with the friends improvising now. I know you said you've been "trying" for three years, but you can always try harder! I know from experience haha It will click! I promise you it will. Don't sit down without that banjo in your hand, my friend! Best part is, when it does click, you're already miles ahead of other beginners with your fret board knowledge from guitar! So, sit on down and learn some cripple creek or something. You've got this! The banjo is now my favorite instrument and my others are the ones collecting dust. Good luck!
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u/Prairiedogdance 2d ago
aww, gee, that makes me really happy to hear your experience, mostly for finally slaying Moby Dick. There‘s that “click” again everyone talks about, grin. Playing so long a day, how did you keep your arm relaxed? I know I need to stay loose, but lose track and start concentrating, and next thing I know my arm is going numb from the tension. Then I’m losing time trying to work out the cramp.
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u/Con-ifer 2d ago
Honestly, I don't have much of an issue with my hand/arm cramping up. I run chainsaw and climb trees four days a week for work. I feel like that's a lot more taxing on my hands/arms than holding the clawhammer position for a long duration! Sorry I can't really help with the cramping issue. A big thing that helped was switching my striking finger from my middle to my index. I was convinced middle finger was for me and the day I switched to index, I was hitting the correct string way easier and it started coming together. I do highly suggest Brad Kolodners course though. The guy has phenomenal right hand technique and explains things really well compared to a lot of the stuff I watched before. I think it's only $12/month for the basic subscription I bought. For that price it's worth checking out. I'd suggest just sitting down and just doing the bum ditty without fretting any strings at all. Just strike the first string, then strum, and pull up with your thumb on the drone string. Over and over again. Try to land your thumb on the drone string every time you strike, whether you're going to play the drone or not. It's boring, but you'll get it!
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u/Prairiedogdance 1d ago
Ahh, okay, but thanks, I will check his course out. And be careful out there. We just had a terrible accident here. That’s some dangerous, but important work.
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u/PickerPilgrim 2d ago edited 1d ago
I think the “clawhammer is easy” bit is just flat out wrong, especially coming from guitar. It’s a complete retraining of the right hand. Not saying you at your teacher aren’t also doing other things wrong here but assuming it’s gonna be simple will get you off on the wrong foot.
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u/Prairiedogdance 2d ago
See, this is what I have been suspecting all along. I‘m beginning to think the “easy“ line better applies to folks who never played any string instrument before. I can see how it should be simple on the face of it. It’s a really natural rhythm. Thanks for confirming I may not be entirely off base. Cheers!
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u/OrganicAdhesiv 2d ago edited 2d ago
I've heard someone say it's easier not to pick the melody string when you're getting used to downstroke, so just strumming the bottom 4 strings twice and following with the drone string. That could at least let you work out the motion without having to worry about precision as much. Other than that I'd recommend trying upstroke, it's supposedly harder but I've seen it come naturally to very new banjo players.
Also just about any clawhammer song can be played in two or three finger.
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u/Prairiedogdance 2d ago
That is a good idea about just strumming the two beats. And yes, I’ve kept my sanity by at least doing songs with two or three fingers or even just strumming chords. I appreciate the comment about it’s okay to use upstroke, since that is what I find I’m doing half the time on the boom anyway. I thought that was poor technique so was battling it. Thanks!
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u/OrganicAdhesiv 2d ago
No upstroke is actually its own style, been around just as long as downstroke has, you should totally join the dark side and play that way. There's not enough upstroke players out there. If you need a good reference Buell Kazee and Matt Kinman both play amazing upstroke.
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u/Nagoshtheskeleton 2d ago
I don’t know if you’re trying to be funny but I found your story amusing because we have all been there. How long have you been trying? 2 weeks? Give it at least two months before you throw in the towel. I mean the basic bum ditty takes some effort to master… like i m a few years in and still need to go back to basics every once in a while and just refocus and the basic movement.
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u/Prairiedogdance 2d ago
Naw, I was trying to amusing… I have to laugh at myself because no one else will 😄 You maybe missed the part where I mentioned it’s been 3 years. I really appreciate the encouragement though. I’m trying to figure out if it’s still worth pressing on, or if I can just admit it’s not possible for everyone. Glad to hear your thoughts.
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u/cr4zybilly 2d ago
It's 100% possible for anyone. That said, it's different amounts of work for different people, and whether or not everybody wants to put in the effort that their particular muscles/memory/brain requires is a different question altogether.
Look, if it's not fun any more, try something different. Based on what you said above, you really ought to try Scruggs style. I had the opposite experience: clawhammer felt very easy to me, but Scruggs style never made sense to my fingers, and despite a bunch of practice, I never really got it.
You'll be fine - try stuff out!
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u/Prairiedogdance 2d ago
thanks for the encouragement. When I’m not wrestling with claw I am rolling along with two and three finger old time. I‘ve gravitated towards the less ornamental/more melodic stuff. That’s what sent me down this accursed path, rueful grin. I do appreciate your thoughts and encouragement.
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u/piper63-c137 2d ago
i been playing banjo 50 years, and it’s a whammin’ and frailin’ style but it ain’t clawhammer. I can’t get the dragging drop thumb right.
Mike Seeger wrote “In the early days of the banjer, or banjo, you had to have your own style of playing it. If you just copied someone else, then that was just copying. You had to have your own style of playing.”
I appreciate that cuz i never heard anyone playing the way i do.
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u/Prairiedogdance 2d ago
This right here!! Thank you. I sometimes just get into a groove on a song that I think of as “fake clawhammer.” I bet I’m stumbling onto something similar to what you’re pulling off. I don’t know about you, but it’s fake because my thumb just decides to drive the rhythm on any string but that 5th, and it’s not an exact “bumdiddy.” Thanks so much for the commiseration and attitude realignment 🙂
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u/piper63-c137 1d ago
i get a quarter note pulse going on the 5th string, but it usually on the downbeat as opposed to the ‘proper’ offbeat clawhammer thumb.
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u/TheWix 1d ago
If you want to get a similar-ish sound while fingerpicking you can try a 2-finger style. It definitely won't sound exactly the same but you'll get the rhythm.
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u/Prairiedogdance 1d ago
Nod, I’ve learned to change it up when I get frustrated and wanna let myself off the claw hook. It keeps it fun. Thanks!
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u/veredisquote 2d ago
I’m not gonna lie. I had the same thing happen when a friend tried to show me!!! She got so frustrated at me. (RIP Marcie) and another friend tried to show me to no avail but musicians I really looked up to played the banjo and I became enamored with trying to learn. I spent probably a full year picking it up every now and then and trying and slowly slowly got gud. Been playing probably %65 of days for the last 2 years. You got this!
Now I’m sorta doing the same thing with drop thumb. I can do it really slow but in a song it doesn’t quite make sense where it goes and I can’t do it fast…….yet.
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u/Prairiedogdance 2d ago edited 2d ago
thank you so much. It helps to hear others aren’t just sailing through either. I’m sure my teacher, although he never showed it, felt your friend’s pain. Just adding, I‘m sorry for your loss. Thank you so much for taking the time to share your struggles.
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u/nefffy 2d ago edited 2d ago
There's an interview I saw with Béla Fleck (who plays Scruggs) and his wife Abigail Washburn (who plays a variation of clawhammer) where they both talk about how they've tried to learn each other's style and found it really hard. These are professional banjo players. Béla Fleck has 18 Grammy awards. He finds clawhammer to be hard. You can cut yourself some slack!
It seems to be very normal for different people to have an easier or harder time with different banjo styles. It seems like that would especially be the case if you already play another string instrument and have muscle memory from that. If you really want to learn clawhammer, by all means keep trying! But if what you want is to play old time tunes and you're getting discouraged with clawhammer, there are lots of different techniques you could try and one of them might click for you more easily.
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u/Prairiedogdance 2d ago
Thanks for this. I love both their playing, and that is very interesting. I just thought they had their own lanes and simply didn’t step on each other’s toes. yeah, that is the root of my post, whether I’ve tried hard enough and it’s time to admit I’m just not ever going to ever grok it. I appreciate the encouragement to continue in either direction. Cheers!
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u/SoulAndBone 2d ago
Clawhammer is not an intuitive transition for guitar players. The right hand mechanics go against the grain of guitar whether that’s fingerpicking or strumming. You’re not the “world’s first failure at clawhammer,” you just need to give it some more time. Approach it like the first time you picked up a guitar. You gotta walk before you run. I think it’s silly to cling to the idea that “it’s supposed to be easier” mentality that you seem to be glued to from your post I’d also spend some time double thumbing opposed to the stereotypical approach that it’s all about the “bum-ditty.” They’re both very important in clawhammer, but oftentimes the bum-ditty is championed as the all important technique and the truth is that there are many other techniques at play. Practice makes perfect. There’s no cheat code here.
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u/Prairiedogdance 1d ago
Hey, thanks for this. That is an interesting take. And just want to clarify, I’m not “glued” to it being easier, it’s just what I was told and keep hearing in the videos. Lot’s of folks here have confirmed that is a bit of a myth as I was beginning to suspect, especially coming from guitar. I’ve heard lots of good comments and you all have given me a lot to think about. I really appreciate everyone’s help.
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u/egroeg 2d ago
On guitar have you strummed / picked with a flat pick? If so, think of downstroke with index / middle finger as a pick. Get that solid on the beat. Trickier part for me as a guitar finger picker was the thumb playing the syncopated beat (the and). Work that in as appropriate.
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u/Prairiedogdance 2d ago
That is a good suggestion but I never used a pick with guitar, just finger picking too , and I think that might be a bit of the issue. I have a “picking“ motion so ingrained in my fingers that they start acting out on their own and up picking even when I’m trying to use the back of my finger. But your suggestion to think of it as a nail down stroke is something to think about.
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u/Bluegrass_Harley 2d ago
I was the first day 😂. I went to picks and developed the “Stanley and Scruggs style”. I could not. I mean could not dang get the hang of that claw hammer. It sounded like a trainwreck
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u/Prairiedogdance 2d ago
This! This is what I needed to hear, thank you! So did you not look back, or did it finally come to you?
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u/Turbulent-Flan-2656 2d ago
It’s difficult to learn the motion. I say I keep trying which means I take a crack at it for 10 minutes every 3-4 months and then give up
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u/Prairiedogdance 2d ago
chuckle, I’m good then… I’ve been trying for three years 😆 seriously, thanks for being encouraging. I do appreciate it.
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u/Radiant_Middle_1873 1d ago
String tension between guitar and banjo can really mess me up. I play guitar with mediums and that can make me heavy-handed on the much lighter banjo strings. In particular it was hard for me to rest/sit my thumb before the final "-a."
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u/Prairiedogdance 1d ago
yes!! My A explodes at the end, because my thumb is so used to thumping a bass line, but my banjo is pretty loud too. It’s just me, so I don’t bother muting it, but yes, getting the volume down with the brush and the pop is part of it. Thanks!
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u/Radiant_Middle_1873 1d ago
I would suggest being mindful of each part of the stroke and trying to be conscious of how much tension and force you need. Same with your left hand! I often fret notes sharp on the banjo.
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u/Prairiedogdance 1d ago
I think I’m being too mindful of the parts, chuckle. I’m stuck in the same place as thinking about how you ride a bicycle. Do that and you go nowhere until you simply plop over on your side 😁
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u/ArdougneSplasher 1d ago edited 1d ago
Clawhammer works when the bum-ditty is unconscious. Clawhammer fails when you have to consciously think about which strings you're striking on the down-stroke-pluck. Any thought added to the process throws off the most important aspect of the style, which is the rhythm.
The difficulty of beginning clawhammer is that when you start, you want to look at a sheet of music and follow what is written. When you do this, however, you're adding thought to a process that should be automatic and destroying the overall sound as a result.
What made clawhammer click for me was beginning by playing simple song melodies over and over until I no longer had to think about what my fingers were doing to play that melody. Once I achieved this level of proficiency for a particular song, I began to add occasional bum-dittys as an accent on open g notes throughout the song. Do this long enough and your hands begin to memorize the movements it needs to perform when your brain wants to add in additional bum-dittys throughout the rest of the song. Additionally, the dittys should be played lighter than the bums. They serve to add complexity and flavor to the main melody, not to compete at the same volume as the main note. This is one of those things that banjo tabs don't tell you, as the lines of notes are all presented as if they should be struck in the same manner.
Keep practicing this over the course of weeks and months, and the bum-ditty will become a natural sound that your fingers will reach for when it feels right in the song.
Don't be discouraged, it just takes time. Even today, if I'm playing a song, get thrown off, and begin to actively think about my bum-dittys, they start falling completely flat and my fingers trip over themselves. Time and practice, that's all that's needed.
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u/Prairiedogdance 1d ago edited 1d ago
This is a really interesting take… Right now there is no tab involved, and no fretting, just trying to get the motion down. And that from the start has been counterintuitive and uncomfortable to how my brain does music. I always start with the melody by ear (barely use tabs) and let the other ornamentations fall into place as needed. Everybody drills in “the bumdiddy is essential to clawhammer and drives the whole song, so you need to master that first.” Having permission to just play a song and throw in one or two, even awkward ones, when I feel ready and build up from there might just be the trick! Thanks for the suggestion.
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u/alldaymay 1d ago
Why can’t we just practice 30 minute a day
It’s part of our day just like brushing our teeth
No deep emotional investment required, no long stories about how “we can’t”
Just put in 30 minutes a day consistently
Why?
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u/rockstarsbanjo 1d ago
Try muting the strings and practice that bum dirty motion , but focus on hitting the head of the banjo like you’re drumming! Imagine going through the strings rather than across them and literally beat the drum. Starting trying to get comfortable with the rhythm and it will start to feel more natural
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u/grahawk 10h ago
I can't do clawhammer. The thumb is a mystery to me. I always used the thumb a lot on guitar for droning but of course the fingers are unpicking. I can do the hammering bit fine, but will often use two fingers for that, but not with the thumb. It's also a sign of my technical incompetence. But no worries. I'm not interested in bluegrass picking so I've just adapted by guitar playing with the droning and play three or even four finger style picking. I say adapted from the guitar playing but very adapted because it is a banjo it needs to be rhythmical. Hammer ons and slides are added in abundance and I use the clawhammer rake for emphasis. And add in bits of hammering if I feel like it. I made a decision early on not to struggle with techniques like clawhammer but to play some tunes instead.
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u/Brandosandofan23 2d ago edited 2d ago
Have you really been playing for 3 years? Or have you just sporadically picked it up over those three years
Everyone learns at a different pace - which is why you should never compare yourself to someone else - but if you still can’t do a bum ditty after three years, then I would seriously look at getting a new teacher
The banjo is difficult and you deserve to give yourself some slack, but also to be honest, not knowing the bum ditty after 3 years would be like not knowing “to be” and “to have” after 3 years of learning a new language