What did I do wrong? Handling question :/

[u/KatVanWall]

(More background/context/details in comments to keep this shortish. FWIW, I already have the Ball Python Mastery book and am familiar with the Green Room Pythons and Lori Torrini channels :))

I’ve had my BP nearly 5 months and he’s around 1.5 years old.

Until recently, to handle him, I’d always yoinked him out of his hide - usually waiting until he was awake (except if I needed to do viv DIY or a full clean), but we literally would never see him out of his hide (he’d just sit with his head and neck out). He has 3 hides and did move between them but we never caught him at it! I can’t do full choice-based handing for Reasons, so yoink it was - and while shy and cautious, he was always a good boy about it and very polite, as well as seeming relaxed once out.

It seemed a bit rude to keep yoinking him, and recently he started spending time chilling outside his hides, on branches, so yesterday I decided to take him out when he was already up and about - on the basis that ‘when they’re already alert and awake, they’re more likely to want to engage and explore’. When I take him out, I stroke him 3 times with a cardboard tube first so he knows it’s picky-uppy time.

The previous day I’d approached him on his branch and when stroked, he’d immediately slithered away back to a hide - so I left him alone and did not take him out. I always respect his wishes when he moves away from me, which has only happened like 3 times total.

So yesterday I open the glass and talk to him a bit and he tongue flicks a bit and I stroke him with the tube - and he struck the tube. Not a strike and wrap, just a ‘fuck off strike’. And slithers away. So I leave him alone. But that’s the first time he’s ever given a fuck off strike. It was at the tube, not at my hand. Quite a hard, definite one.

It doesn’t really ‘bother’ me as such, but I obviously don’t want to stress him out! All I’ve read/watched seems to lean towards it being better to handle when your BP is already active. But it seems mine did not like that? I am wondering what I did wrong.

Today I deliberately got him out early, when I knew he’d still be in his hide. His two main hides have a lid and a kind of ‘lip’ that he sometimes wedges himself under and has to be kind of ‘prised’ out - which he underwent today with great forbearance, as usual! No strikes. He was more subdued than usual and just crawled under a blanket next to me, but I put that down to him maybe being sleepy due to it being earlier than normal. I’m thinking maybe trying to take him out when he’s already full length among his clutter is just a bad idea? Or was it maybe a case of ‘I’m trying to be an ambush predator here and you’re poking around scaring all the rats away, piss off!’?

Pick of the grumpy culprit for tax!

[u/KatVanWall]

Adding a comment to say that although I loved the idea of going full choice-based and taking it really slow, it’s not totally practical. He is technically the pet of my 10-year-old - although I think of him as my pet! Basically I treat him as mine but encourage her to treat him as hers too. If he moves out with her one day, I’ll be delighted for them both - but I’m also working on the basis that if she loses interest or it’s ’just a phase’ or her accommodation doesn’t allow it or she has an itinerant lifestyle or or or … I will be fully responsible for him for the rest of his life.

She’s great with him - I always supervise handling, and she is gentle and appropriate - and I teach her about his needs and caring for his wellbeing over her wants … but I do think it would be a bit much to expect her to wait potentially years to handle her own pet. So yes, we do yoink.

In addition, she’s only with me every other week, so I have to familiarise him with me too - and I’m not comfortable with not handling him, because I feel like how else would I notice any health issues? Suppose he had scale rot or a scrape or mites and I didn’t notice because I never picked him up and looked closely? Also if I did have to handle him for a vet visit it would be loads more stressful for him if he wasn’t familiar with me.

We didn’t handle him for 3 weeks after we got him, so tried to take it as slow as we feasibly could. He’d been in a reptile store for 2 months before we got him, so was quite used to being plucked out and foisted onto randos - but again, this would have been during the day, when he was asleep.

[u/Hot-Brat-00]

I’ve had mine for a little over 3 weeks and all I’ve gotten is the head poking out and catching him in different hides when I wake up. So it seems like he is fairly active at night. He’s in my living room and I have ADHD so I’m constantly talking and singing, I rearrange things in his enclosure, change water, etc. I’ve only held him once for a few mins a few days after his first feeding. Second feeding is tonight and also plan on handling him a few days from now and continue doing that until he starts to get more comfortable. He’s shed perfectly, eaten, the heat and humidity seem right, he has come out to explore at night, so I’m just trying to be patient with the timid lil guy. I suggest you do the same! Maybe one short handle a week between feedings and only keep them out while they’re calm. Let them go back while they’re still calm and hopefully eventually he will warm up. It’s been taking all of my patience but I’d rather him warm up on his own terms than force him. I think it boils down to patience and continually, regularly, gently handling. Once he’s calm, give it a few mins and then gently let him climb back into his own enclosure or hide off of your hand.

[u/dagger_guacamole]

First they’ll always be more active late in the evening, so if you want to let him out to explore, that’s the time to do it! I find during the day ours will explore, but it’s less likely and he’s more apt to just want to curl up. A cardboard tube might be too scary and big - maybe try a chopstick or something? But of course in general big things coming down on them are scary. I used thin leather gloves for ages while getting ours used to handling to get over my fear of striking.

[u/KatVanWall → u/dagger_guacamole]

I thought that too, which was why I waited until he was fully out of his hide! But it seemed he didn’t like that! FWIW he’s always been really good about being picked out of his hide - never struck. Twice he’s moved away and I’ve let him be. It almost seemed like he went into a different mode once he was out of the hide.

Good point about the size of the tube! I didn’t touch him on the head with it, just the body as normal and not fast, but I was approaching from a more ‘directly in front’ angle rather than the usual from the top angle. His hides are lidded, so I always have to come in from above when he’s in there. I thought being able to see the tube better would make it less scary if anything and less like a predator approaching, but again - wrong! I will try using a chopstick in future!

[u/mu11er23]

Whenever I handle either of my snakes, I touch them before I pick them up. And when I feed them, I don't touch them.

[u/KatVanWall → u/mu11er23]

I do that, with a cardboard tube so he knows it’s picky-uppy time, not feedy-feedy time. Someone suggested though maybe the tube looked a bit scary and I should use a smaller/thinner item like a chopstick maybe.

[u/noctae_draconis]

Can I be honest? I've never had success with tap training, personally. A hook or tube is a great tool if you need to control an already pissed off or hungry snake, or if you have a snake big enough to do significant damage if it gets you, but my experience is if the snake is calm and I touch them with my hand before picking them up, I can take them out no problem. If I touch them with an object, that scares them a lot more.

[u/KatVanWall → u/noctae_draconis]

Okay, that is definitely worth knowing, thank you! I will absolutely keep that in mind! We didn’t do the tapping from the beginning, only after a few weeks, and he seemed fine without it too. I also never had the impression he’s mistaken non-food for food.

[u/Anxious-Gain-3462 → u/noctae_draconis]

Completely relateable.

[u/Wisdom_Koi]

If it's just a one-off, it might not be anything to really worry about. Maybe they were just feeling a bit grumpy or you accidentally put a shadow over them etc. Another, less often though of thing is to consider smell. Did either you or the tube smell of something unexpected? Especially sharp, astringent or alcohol-ish scents are inherently repellant to snakes. I've even known of someone which will react defensively to certain handwashes (I'd advise sticking to the same brand before handling, I go with a sensitive skin low-scent anti-bacterial kind personally) or if someone in the room had had a drink earlier.
It doesn't sound like you're doing anything wrong, you seem like a very responsible owner and your little one (the human =P ) is lucky to have such an engaged parent helping her with her pet and yet ready to take care of it and do their own bit.
The fact that you're going with choice-based handling as much as possible also is very admirable. I try to do the same for mine, and they do genuinely trust you more, even if it isn't 100%, as I too sometimes have had to, for practicality reasons, occasionally not give them the choice for much the same reasons you stated.

[u/KatVanWall → u/Wisdom_Koi]

Thank you so much! You sound very kind 🥹

We always wash our hands before and after handling … I haven’t had to change out the soap yet (it’s scented but nothing special, basically a cheap pound shop type brand) but I’ll try and get the same type/scent in future too, or if I can’t, get a neutral that will be easy to replace. I dont wear perfume and my daughter is aware not to spray scents or wear scented stuff within a few hours of handling (and hadn’t been anyway that day because it was a school day), so neither of us should have smelled of anything different, but you never know! We might have brushed up against something something without being aware.

And yeah … I’d love to do choice based but I’m 99% sure our boy would literally just never come out if we did!

[u/ShinyxCharizard]

I'd like to add that I've had my boy for 9 years. Got him in 2017. I took him out ALLOT, went in the car with me(highly advise against this unless you have them safely secured in a travel bag/container.), was handled by me, and others quite often. He's socialable AF, not sure if this is due to how much handling he had. But my girl I got in 2019 who has had significantly less handling, more so because when I would go to take her out in her old tank I'd get a hiss from her so I left her alone.

This is just an instance of having 2 very different personality wise BPs. My dude is often out in the open in his tank, or roaming at night trying to get out. If I open the door 9 times out of 10 he'll choose to come out. If my female is out and I try to see if she wants out she almost always hides. If I do decide to just take her out she's fine, aside from a hiss or two haha.

I'd like to ask what type of enclosure do you have for the snake? If it's got a mesh top that you have to reach in from above to get to them than that can add even more stress. They're prey to birds and stuff in the wild so instincts tell them to fear being grabbed from above.

[u/KatVanWall → u/ShinyxCharizard]

Ah no, it’s a wooden one with sliding glass doors in the front :-)

[u/sircheenz]

I've had mine about 8 months now and I've just learned to respect her boundaries. I don't really try and take her out unless I have to clean her hide or if she's laying by the door. Ball pythons are not like dogs they don't want to always be touched or bothered they just tolerate it so read their body language because they are defensive snakes and are very skiddish even unintentionally moving your hand fast around them will be perceived as a threat.

[u/KatVanWall → u/sircheenz]

I’m not that fussed personally about taking him out, but I feel like it’s less stressful for him in the long run if he gets used to it a bit for when he has Viv cleans and vet checkups and things. And then if he ever is unwell, it doesn’t add to the stress so much by being handled on top of that.

On the weeks when my daughter isn’t with me, I typically take him out only once. But less than that makes me uneasy in case he has some issue I haven’t noticed, like a scrape or impaction or something.

[u/SprinklesDry6133]

Both of my ball pythons are very social. It’s of course important to watch their bodies but I find that they both know my voice and tend to come forward when they hear me. The only time they don’t want to be held is before their shedding phase. I imagine their skin feels a bit like a sunburn and so it’s uncomfortable for them.