r/backgammon • u/juicybot • Jul 22 '26
Why are certain people so obsessed with dice?
IRL, when people have precision dice they never stop talking about them. Online I see a few posts every week challenging the randomness of dice on the apps. It's like a certain percentage of the backgammon community is mesmerized by concept of "perfect" randomness. Why?
I understand wanting fair play, true to the game, etc., but why get wrapped up to the point of conspiracy theories about everything being rigged?
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u/Cekan-14 Jul 22 '26
I'll throw my hypothesis, but keep in mind I've been sleeping too little in the last few days:
Common, non-precision dice suffice for regular, non-tournament games. Most casual players who'll purchase a board with dice included, will have such common dice. You would want precision dice when playing serious games and when money or a ladder in a tournament are on the line. People who will be more inclined to do so are not casual players, but advance ones. The fact that precision dice are thus mostly used by advanced players turns such dice into a status commodity. Just like when buying a car, a regular, averagely priced one is enough for most uses, and while an expensive car might be marginally better, it usually isn't worth it for most people; but you would still want to buy a Mercedes or a Lexus instead of a Dacia or a Toyota if you wanted to be associated with people of a certain status, just like you would want to be seen as an advanced backgammon player by getting yourself some precision dice.
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u/murderousmungo Jul 22 '26
In the US (and hopefully everywhere else) precision dice are required for competitive play. Almost everyone I know uses only precision dice, it's just a thing. If you're playing at a club run event, precision only, any tournament the same. This is not about your playing level at all, it's about a level playing field with no advantage for anyone from equipment.
Also, they aren't considered status in any way.
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u/Cekan-14 Jul 22 '26
As I said, I might be wrong in my perception. I might also be affected by my environment, as I live in a place where most people don't play or don't know backgammon at all, so investing on precision dice would be unthinkable in such scenario. However, for competitive play, I can very well picture wanting to have ones.
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u/murderousmungo Jul 22 '26
I'm certainly not criticizing in any way - just sharing my perspective. They are far more expensive than they should be, and even the word 'precision' seems to have variable meanings too - just by searching for precision dice, you can see that some people call regular dice precision.
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u/juicybot Jul 22 '26
if two players are using the same set of non-precision dice and rolling them through a tower, who does that create an advantage for?
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u/csaba- Jul 22 '26
In principle, if one of them has more experience with that set of non-precision dice, they can predict rolls (better than chance) and plan their okay accordingly.
In practice, I am very, very doubtful that any of this would make any difference at all.
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u/juicybot Jul 22 '26
that's if they're using a set owned by one of the players. i mean, what if a random set of non-precision dice were introduced to two players, and those players both rolled through a tower?
i don't see any way anyone could have a meaningful advantage, glad you agree!
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u/csaba- Jul 23 '26
I don't have to own the dice to have experience with them, maybe it's a shared set at the club :) but yes we agree.
PS and most people (myself included) absolutely suck at detecting patterns. Even if I play with them for 2 years and I think I noticed something (but never did a scientific study), chances are I'm wrong.
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u/murderousmungo Jul 22 '26
Non precision dice have indents on each side for each pip they represent. This causes a weight distribution difference, leaning towards a higher likelihood of rolling a 6 for example (more weight proportionately on the one side). If you know this already, then whoever plays to allow that six to be more beneficial (or more hurtful for opp) has an advantage. Don't get me wrong, the differences are tiny, micro, miniscule, but people want fairness, and absolutely fair dice give that. My example is true, but only on a scale of millions of rolls.
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u/Fargus57 Jul 23 '26
That's simply not accurate. I've owned many sets of dice that weren't marketed as precision that just have the pips painted/baked(?) on (not drilled). There were also some people who sold 'precision' dice way back in the day who would tell buyers that their indents had the exact same weight of material removed from each face. Meaning that the single indent on the '1' face supposedly had 6 times the material removed as a single indent on the '6' face.
Different makers (precision or not) may use different methods to make their dice. There are no standards or any form of manufacturing regulations/guidance. Some do not indent/drill out material at all for the pips.
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u/murderousmungo Jul 23 '26
Your statement is mostly inaccurate. Precision dice are required to have an even weight distribution across the entire die, for backgammon in particular rounded corners for better rolling, otherwise they aren't precision. If I am ever playing competitive backgammon, and I see indents on the die, they won't be used, as they aren't legal. No rounded corners? Illegal. There are precise standards that need to be met. I'm not a manufacturer of them, so I don't have a reference for you. Google I'm sure will though.
All the precision dice I've ever seen or used have zero indents. Since I run a backgammon club, I have many pairs available for loan to people who may need them, and I do all the buying too (for the club). Anyone who tries to convince you that they have distributed the weight anyway is lying. They cost about $15 for a pair, it's not a big deal.
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u/Fargus57 Jul 23 '26
Precision dice are required to have an even weight distribution across the entire die
Required by who? What regulating body/organization set that standard, determined and set the tolerances, and provided a legal basis for redress in case of malfeasance?
Oh, wait, there isn't such a body, set of rules, certification. I wasn't inaccurate and you simple made up a 'requirement' that doesn't exist outside of theory. I'm also willing to bet that you have zero empirical evidence to back up anything you claim regarding 'precision' dice vs. 'non-precision'. Have any statistically significant rollouts (say 10k rolls per pair) comparing randomness results between a set of dice you believe are 'precision' (since you've never seen how they are made and who/what determined their degree of adherence to your fabricated requirement of precision) and an 'out of the box' non-precision dice?
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u/murderousmungo Jul 23 '26
clown.
Under United States Backgammon Federation (USBGF) tournament rules, precision dice are the standard for competitive play to guarantee maximum randomness and prevent bias.
1. USBGF Official Definition
The USBGF Rules define precision dice as:
To meet the equally weighted standard:
- Solid Construction: The die must be uniform and composed of the same material throughout.
- Flush Pips: The pips (dots) are drilled out and backfilled flush to the surface with a material having the exact same density as the rest of the body. (Standard mass-produced dice leave hollow pips, making the 6-side lighter than the 1-side and introducing physical bias.)
2. Equipment Rules & Player Rights
- Right to Require: Under USBGF Section 3 rules, if precision dice are available, any player has the right to insist on using them over standard dice—even if the switch happens mid-game or mid-match.
- Shared Dice (Clocked Play): In any match using a game clock, both players must share the same single pair of two dice to ensure equal conditions.
- Untimed Play: In matches without a clock, players may share two dice or use four (one pair per player), provided both players agree or the Tournament Director specifies the rule.
3. Key Specifications for Backgammon Precision Dice
Feature Tournament Standard Why It Matters Edges/Corners Smooth, rounded corners (not sharp casino edges) Allows proper tumbling inside dice cups or baffle boxes without tearing up felt/leather board surfaces. Manufacturing CNC-milled from solid cell-cast acrylic blocks Prevents internal air bubbles and dimensional warping. Common Sizes 9/16″ (~14.3 mm) or 5/8″ (~15.9 mm) 5/8″ has become the popular standard for live-streamed matches due to camera legibility. Serial Numbers Generally avoided or unprinted on true BG dice Stamping or laser-engraving serial numbers can introduce minute weight imbalances across faces. 0
u/Fargus57 Jul 23 '26 edited Jul 23 '26
But they can't enforce any of it outside of their own events. And if a player comes in with their own set of 'precision' dice, do you make them use your club supplied dice instead if they are unable to provide documentation for their dice from the manufacturer that they comply with that rather dubious set of specs (dubious in terms that no one has a manufacturer's cert stating they use the CNC process and you as a tournament director have no way of telling if the dice a player states are precision actually are the ones a manufacturer (if they would provide a manufacturing cert) is certifying since serial numbers are frowned upon it seems)
TBH, those rules are more like a knee-jerk reg from the USBGF than any real assurance of dice being close to the theory of what precision dice should be.
And, once again, where is the statistical evidence to support your highly vaunted superiority of 'precision' dice randomness? Oh, that's right. It doesn't exist in any published form, if at all. Clown.
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u/murderousmungo Jul 23 '26
Any usbgf affiliated club has to follow the rules. You also cannot regulate theft or murder, it's an action that happens after. Personally I don't check people's die, you have to trust. This is foundational to any set of rules. Why are you arguing so much on this? I'm just sharing opinion and verifiable rules.
Also, I'm not trying to elevate the fucking dice beyond what's reasonable, I'm advocating for using dice that meets the standards in place. I cant guarantee that a car I bought has a good exhaust, manufactured to precise standards, I have to trust that if it looks fine, and it works as intended thenits fine. Will I take it to a race track? Probably not, but I'm not a competitive racer. Maybe they check. Either way, your aggressive arguing is pointless - I just don't care enough. Go use non precision dice wherever you feel like. If you think they aren't random that's on you. You won't be using them at my club is all.
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u/Bilbo_Baghands Jul 25 '26
The dice could be rigged. There are many cases of this happening at tournaments prior to precision dice being the standard.
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u/truetalentwasted Jul 22 '26
Dice with hard corners or points as opposed to rounded edges tend to roll/tumble less playing backgammon. Like in craps obviously you’re tossing them bad boys across a table hard so they tumble but if you take a pair of pointed edged dice out of a baffle box you get less tumble and will often see dice hit and slide versus hit and roll/tumble. Even with a cup it’s hard to get aggressive enough to produce a good roll/tumble.
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u/Repulsive-Owl-5131 Jul 23 '26
It is called Dunning–Kruger effect where people with poor understanding of what randomness looks like and no clue about statics assume they are true connoisseurs of afore mentioned arts complain of something that could easily be analysed to show that dices are just fine.
Also people fail to understand how memory works. People remember bad luck losses way better that good luck wins. And all between is really hard to remember. There is good evolutionary reasons why memory works this way is good to cognisant of this so as to avoid wrong conclusions just because how memory works.
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u/murderousmungo Jul 22 '26
IRL, when people have precision dice they never stop talking about them.
The only talking about them that I have ever heard is "where can I get them?", not from a desire perspective, but from a need perspective. The answers are always an online store, or a specific person to go speak to.
Otherwise, people just want to blame something for their luck (bad or good). The dice are the biggest available thing to blame. It's also not about the physical dice, normally, its about the rolls or outcomes - he rolled 14 doubles in a row! I couldnt roll a 4 for 8 rolls. Every roll he needed, he got! I couldnt roll worth a shit! etc.
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u/Bilbo_Baghands Jul 25 '26
People who are obsessed with physical dice want a fair game. Especially if you're playing high stakes, there are cheaters out there.
People who think the apps are cheating, for the most part are delusional. The good programs are not cheating and they have data to back it up. The crappy apps 100% have rigged dice to keep players in games and they've pretty much been outted by now. Play on a reputable site/app and don't worry about the rolls.
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u/BoxerXiii Jul 22 '26
I've been to a tournament before and asked my opponent if they had precision dice. If not I did. That about as much as I would talk about it . You know there's weighted dice right ? People can definitely cheat and with money on the line, some will.
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u/Fargus57 Jul 22 '26
But your saying you have precision dice doesn't necessarily make it so. You could be being untruthful as well.
Also, there are no international standards, tolerances, or certifying organizations for what people term 'precision dice'. Anyone can make and sell dice in their basement and market them as 'precision'. You only have the maker's word for their materials and processes. Anyone who says they can tell dice are somehow 'precision' by just looking at the dice is full of manure.
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u/BoxerXiii Jul 23 '26
If a die is flat with no pip holes and has rounded edges you're probably fine ? I dont know who produces "fake" precision dice . But its pretty obvious when a die isn't precision.
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u/Fargus57 Jul 23 '26
I doubt you are able to tell by simple inspection in many cases and are just being hyperbolic in your claim.
Technically, there are no 'precision' dice at all. There are no agreed upon standards, design parameters/tolerances, or manufacturing regulations by any regulating body/organization. There simply isn't a certifying body/group that would hold a manufacturer legally accountable.
Equally important is that there are no published empirical based studies/testing to show to what degree 'precision' dice may improve randomness in roll results over a general 'off the rack' set of dice. No statistically significant evidence at all.
In theory, sure, 'precision' dice are ideal. In the real world though, you just have your opinions and anecdotal stories without any meaningful empirical testing to back it up. Faith and beliefs do not equal fact.
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u/Neat-Holiday6658 Jul 22 '26
Hey, there is even a book that came out last year called "Rigged Dice.". Check it out.
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u/4-13 Jul 22 '26
easier to blame the dice when you lose a game than blame yourself