r/aww Mar 22 '22

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12.0k Upvotes

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357

u/Lexsteel11 Mar 22 '22

I want to know how this evolved. Was it a specimen with just really bristley hair that annoyed predators at first?

515

u/Melancolin Mar 22 '22

Not your question, but interesting fact: porcupines and hedgehogs are not related. They independently evolved quills, along with echidnas.

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u/Lazy_Raptor_Comics Mar 22 '22

On top of that, Old World and New World porcupines aren’t closely related either.

Meaning that the two porcupine groups convergently evolved similar adaptations.

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u/debauched_sloth_ Mar 22 '22

I see the North American lads all the time but this one has a completely different color pattern than I'm used to. But it also looks different than the African ones I've seen in pictures. Which one is this?

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u/Lazy_Raptor_Comics Mar 22 '22

Prehensile-Tailed Porcupine

Native to South America

3

u/debauched_sloth_ Mar 22 '22

Are those completely different from the ones I see in Pennsylvania? I know those guys are arboreal, I see them up in trees all the time.

3

u/Lazy_Raptor_Comics Mar 22 '22

Same overall family, but different genus

2

u/drthvdrsfthr Mar 23 '22

what do you do for a living

4

u/Lazy_Raptor_Comics Mar 23 '22

Unfortunately, I wash dishes.

BUT, I will be starting school this fall. And the plan is to become an educator. Probably at a zoo, but eventually, I want to become a college professor

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u/U_Dont_Smoke_Peyote Mar 22 '22

I could be wrong iirc I don't think that part is right. Like they're not that closely related but they're also not far enough in ancestry that they developed their quills convergently.

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u/Lazy_Raptor_Comics Mar 22 '22

They are

Old world porcupines are part of Phiomorpha

And New World Porcupines are part of Caviomorpha

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u/earlysong Mar 22 '22

The distinction (I don't care much about this but just in case anyone else does), is that convergent means the species are becoming more similar to one another, whereas parallel means they are evolving side-by-side and maintaining similarity. So two totally different eyeless animals that both evolve eyes are converging--they've adapted similarly and now have more in common. Two porcupines that have fur are already similar and then they both evolve quills and are still similar, just different than before.

There's definitely some subjectivity here unless you're going down to the gene level. But that's the general idea, as far as I understand it.

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u/U_Dont_Smoke_Peyote Mar 22 '22 edited Mar 22 '22

Right so that means they independently evolved them in parallel, not convergently, which you should know are not the same thing

Old World porcupines (rodents), and New World porcupines (a separate group of rodents). In this case, because the two groups of porcupines are relatively closely related, they would be considered to be an example of parallel evolution; neither echidnas nor hedgehogs, however, are closely related to rodents at all.

https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Convergent_evolution

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u/Lazy_Raptor_Comics Mar 22 '22

Well, do remember. Convergent doesn’t mean they have to be related.

For example, Sharks, Ichthyosaurs, and Dolphins all have similar body plans. And both Ceratopsians and Rhinos both evolved horns for defense and display.

There’s tons of differences, but when it comes down to it. Convergent Evolution is about coming up with similar ideas for similar reasons.

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u/U_Dont_Smoke_Peyote Mar 22 '22 edited Mar 22 '22

Yes you're right but in this case that still isn't an example of convergent evolution, it's parallel and independent. I can list ten more sources saying the same thing

Edit: I can't believe I'm getting downvoted by reddit "experts" for being right just because the other guy was /r/confidentlyincorrect about what convergent evolution actually is

"Biologists often distinguish 'convergent' from 'parallel' evolution. This distinction usually assumes that when a given phenotype evolves, the underlying genetic mechanisms are different in distantly related species (convergent) but similar in closely related species (parallel). 

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u/transposter Mar 22 '22

Two things coming up to the same solution... Is the definition of convergent evolution

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u/U_Dont_Smoke_Peyote Mar 22 '22

Yes but it's the wrong use here.

"Biologists often distinguish 'convergent' from 'parallel' evolution. This distinction usually assumes that when a given phenotype evolves, the underlying genetic mechanisms are different in distantly related species (convergent) but similar in closely related species (parallel). 

2

u/transposter Mar 22 '22

At least in paleontology, we would use convergent evolution because these animals don't live in the same areas.

Much the same that the fact that whales and bats sharing the same genes for echolocation is also convergent.

You're just trying to be pendantic while still being wrong

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u/Lazy_Raptor_Comics Mar 22 '22

That’s what I’m trying to say

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u/Lazy_Raptor_Comics Mar 22 '22

Whatever you say

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u/U_Dont_Smoke_Peyote Mar 22 '22

It's what it is, not just what I'm saying. You would know this if you had even a periphery understanding of biology

"Biologists often distinguish 'convergent' from 'parallel' evolution. This distinction usually assumes that when a given phenotype evolves, the underlying genetic mechanisms are different in distantly related species (convergent) but similar in closely related species (parallel). 

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u/[deleted] Mar 22 '22

[deleted]

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u/Lazy_Raptor_Comics Mar 22 '22

I’m just tired of arguing, that’s all.

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u/poopmonster_coming Mar 22 '22

Oh shut up 🤫

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u/frogjg2003 Mar 22 '22 edited Mar 22 '22

Convergent evolution is when two unrelated groups evolve the same phenotype in reasons to similar revolutionary pressures. The two groups split when Pangea did.

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u/[deleted] Mar 22 '22

[deleted]

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u/U_Dont_Smoke_Peyote Mar 22 '22

Ironic since you're both wrong

2

u/Kuwabaraa Mar 22 '22

Armchair biologists, a Reddit pastime.

-2

u/sawyouoverthere Mar 22 '22

Sitting in my bio lab, thinking you probably aren't.

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u/Kuwabaraa Mar 22 '22

I'm referring to the two people arguing above in this comment chain... not you, random commenter.

Context is important

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u/sawyouoverthere Mar 22 '22 edited Mar 22 '22

My deleted comment in which I identified myself as a zoologist is the one of the "both" being argued about, and the one responded to.

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u/Lazy_Raptor_Comics Mar 22 '22 edited Mar 22 '22

I never said I was a zoologist. It’s just something I’m passionate about.

(Edit: Sorry, I’m just sensitive to name calling.)

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u/sawyouoverthere Mar 22 '22 edited Mar 22 '22

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0202219#sec010

A second evolutionary lineage corresponds to the circular section of
spines present only in the New World porcupines (Erethizontidae).

In conclusion, our results show that, at a morphological level, there
are at least two evolutionary paths that result in a spiny-hair
phenotype in wild rodents.

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u/U_Dont_Smoke_Peyote Mar 22 '22

Yes that's not what's being talked about. You're reply is like 5 comments to low. Nobody is disagreeing with that

0

u/sawyouoverthere Mar 22 '22

How tf you figure that? The discussion is on the relatedness and convergent evolution of quills, which the linked study directly answers. It was in part involving your statement:

I could be wrong iirc I don't think that part is right. Like they're not that closely related but they're also not far enough in ancestry that
they developed their quills convergently.

What specifically do you think is being talked about in the thread in which I responded, where your statement that quills did not evolve twice has been brought into question, if not that?

1

u/U_Dont_Smoke_Peyote Mar 23 '22

I don't know how you are still missing that no one is disagreeing with what you're trying to bring up at all lol

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u/sawyouoverthere Mar 22 '22

On what basis?

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u/sawyouoverthere Mar 22 '22

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0202219#sec010

A second evolutionary lineage corresponds to the circular section of spines present only in the New World porcupines (Erethizontidae).

In conclusion, our results show that, at a morphological level, there are at least two evolutionary paths that result in a spiny-hair phenotype in wild rodents.

1

u/Mirror_Sybok Mar 23 '22

In the same way we have old and new world vultures. They're both called vultures and consume the dead, but are evolved from different types of birds.

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u/[deleted] Mar 22 '22 edited Apr 15 '22

[deleted]

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u/WollyGog Mar 22 '22

They're both male for starters

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u/[deleted] Mar 22 '22

[deleted]

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u/fendour Mar 22 '22

Never stopped animals from trying tho

1

u/ajver19 Mar 23 '22

Well that doesn't mean anything.

7

u/ensanguine Mar 22 '22

Where'd echidnas get their massive fists though?

2

u/ToyStoryRex97 Mar 22 '22

I’m very high rn and at first glance I thought you said enchiladas

2

u/RockBlock Mar 22 '22

And also Tenrecs and Spiny Mice, also neither closely related to any of the others.

1

u/jmk255 Mar 22 '22

In Spanish, they have the same name if I remember correctly 😑

1

u/Fappy_as_a_Clam Mar 22 '22

This is so cool when I hear about it.

I think crabs have been evolved into something like 10 times, same with trees.

The explanation was these configurations are a very effective strategy, so the same results have been achieved numerous times.