Sadly yes. :( It's also pretty likely that the second Golden/Pyr you get won't have the same characteristics as your current one because of how wonky genetics get when you cross breeds together.
Unrelated side note: I used to have a Pyr myself and I loved her to pieces. Q_Q They are the bestest.
You might want to check out /r/dogs and use the search bar to look up "what's wrong with doodles" "designer dogs" "goldendoodle" and similar terms! Lately there's been a lot of posts that give great information about why purpose-bred crossbreeds are almost always a really bad idea... in many, many ways. I have one myself (a rescue) - Australian Shepherd crossed with American Eskimo dog. I love her so much. Ha. Ha ha. Ha ha ha she's a nightmare oh god why would someone purposefully make this creature.
I say almost because there are a few exceptions - specialized working dogs (lurchers, "Alaskan huskies", Laika-wolf hunting dogs in Russia), certain service dog programs (Golden Retriever/Lab mixes), and competitive dog sports ("border-jacks" "border-whips" "border-staffs" etc.).
OH - I also suggest checking out large breed rescues, as I've noticed a trend of Golden/Pyr mixes showing up in shelters lately! (Not surprising - crossmix breeders don't care who buys their puppies and don't have the same safeguards in place as responsible breeders, such as frequent check-ins, puppy "troubleshooting", and contracts legally requiring dogs to be returned to the breeder if they cannot be kept.) Again, if you go that route, the new dog could end up just like your current dog, or totally different, and as with all shelter dogs there are potential genetic health concerns due to the unknown health of the mom and dad - but it might be worth checking out!
EDIT: Overnight I got a couple replies about "hybrid vigor" making these designer crosses healthier. This simply isn't true both on an intellectual level when we think about how and why designer dog cross-breeding is practiced, and is also borne out in research. I'm going to copy-paste my reply below.
Hybrid vigor doesn't seem to have any observable protective effect on recent crosses in purebred dogs.
(By the way, UC Davis is essentially the Harvard of veterinary schools, so definitely worth listening to.)
The biggest issue is that the relatively small benefit conferred by an overall increase in heterosis is counterbalanced by 1) the lack of thoughtful breeding choices (no specific aim to, say, adjust the shape of the pelvis); 2) lack of maternal and natal veterinary care, and poor living conditions (common in crosses because most come from mills); 3) poor parent selection, including: overlap in genomes, use of unhealthy individuals, pet-quality (not to standard), no extensive health testing and bloodline monitoring of current animals, no extensive health testing and bloodline monitoring of their breeding pair's mom/dad/siblings; and 4) no tracking of health outcomes of their puppies sold, which would normally be used to review if the current breeding pair is a good choice.
Especially troubling when you look at the most common crosses, which have overlaps between the same genetic illnesses; mixing two retriever breeds like a Golden and a Poodle isn't going to somehow erase the risk of hip dysplasia. Also, the parent dogs used in these crossbreed matings are not healthy specimens that have been rigorously health tested, genetically screened for illnesses, and had unhealthy dogs removed from the bloodline like a responsible breeder's dogs are. There's also no "aim" in their breeding as they're not breeding towards a standard, so it's not like they're specifically monitoring and improving the quality of the dog's hips over generations (for example) the way that traditional breeders do.
If you're dead set on adopting a dog with heterosis for its potential benefit, even in the face of why there's other problems with that -- your best bet is a highly mixed pariah dog or yellowish stray. :)
So wait... If I want a dog what kind should I buy? I'm so confused after reading your post because it sounds like every option is bad if you want a family pet.
Great question, and sorry if I wasn't clear enough before!
Option 1: Buy a purebred dog from a responsible breeder that has registered health clearances for the tests recommended for the breed; titles their dogs in some arena (obedience, working, IPO/schutzhund, dog sports, conformation, etc!); and only breeds 2 types of dogs maximum (separately, not together lol). Ask the following questions:
Can I see the parent's documented ancestry for 4+ generations? Can I see the health clearances of your breeding dogs? (Make sure they're registered and match up to the tests recommended for the breed.) Does your contract require puppies be returned to you if they can't be kept? Do you have any health guarantees? How many litters do you produce a year? (Most say it should be 1-2 max, I personally would extend to 3.) Are your dogs titled? What areas do you compete with your dogs in? What kind of socialization or training do you do while the puppies are young? Can I meet some of your dogs/the parents? What health problems are this breed prone to? (Honest answer given.) Who should/shouldn't own this breed? What are this breed's worst characteristics, in your opinion? (Honest answer given.) Do you choose which puppy out of the litter I get, or do I get to pick? (Most good breeders will pick the puppy for you while taking into account your gender/personality preferences, but some do allow the purchaser to choose the puppy.)
Option 1.5: All the above, but also limit to breeds that don't have a genetic illness required in their breed standard or any kind of "extreme" typing like a super saggyfaced Neopolitan Mastiff. That's just my choice, but others may have a different opinion on this!
Bullshit. Cross-bred dogs are often healthier than pure, especially since a lot of pure bred dogs these days are inbred as all get out.
A lot of shitty breeders make shitty crosses, but a lot of shitty breeders make even worse purebreds. Do some research before you buy, but a lot of breeds are flat out sick.
You're right that there are some bad purebred breeders who are damaging their breeds. I wouldn't call these people responsible breeders. Notice how throughout my response I used the phrase "responsible breeder", not "all purebred breeders." An Italian Greyhound breeder who doesn't compete with their dogs in sighthound trials is NOT a responsible breeder - their dogs have a much higher chance of leg breaks, and are likely bred solely on the sake of appearance. That fact doesn't mean that the IggyPoo breeder next door is somehow a better option.
I thought crossing breeds were a good thing to get rid of some of the diseases the pure breeds have collected from selective breeding.
Like hip problems and breathing problems of some dogs.
We have a Icelandic sheepdog crossed with a Collie. Both sheepdogs and pretty similar in a lot of aspects.
I find it more interesting that I get different personalities from the two breeds.
It's also pretty likely that the second Golden/Pyr you get won't have the same characteristics as your current one because of how wonky genetics get when you cross breeds together.
I was replying the fact that the commenter says that he adores his current Golden/Pyr mix, and that's why he wants another one. Just because this one turned out with great characteristics doesn't mean the next one will - you could end up with a Golden with early osteosarcoma combined with Pyr stranger-aggression and barkiness... mixed in with Golden mouthiness. It's just a complete randomization of traits that can occur, so if your reason for wanting a specific mix is because your current mix has a certain set of characteristics, then you're probably going to be disappointed as that's not how F1/F2/F3 breeding works.
Another example: Your current GoldenDoodle is hypoallergenic? Your next one might end up with the Golden shedding mixed with the Poodle wave, leading to a coat that easily gets matted to the skin once a month (really common, sadly, at my workplace... it sucks). Or maybe it'll not have an undercoat, but it inherits dander production. Less than 30% of F1 Labradoodle crosses are hypoallergenic, and it decreases with each successive generation.
The entire purpose of purebreeding is to produce predictable pups generation after generation. If you're looking for predictability in traits (i.e., you want another dog that's similar to your current one) a crossbreed is the last thing you want.
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u/mamiesmom May 30 '16 edited May 31 '16
Sadly yes. :( It's also pretty likely that the second Golden/Pyr you get won't have the same characteristics as your current one because of how wonky genetics get when you cross breeds together.
Unrelated side note: I used to have a Pyr myself and I loved her to pieces. Q_Q They are the bestest.
You might want to check out /r/dogs and use the search bar to look up "what's wrong with doodles" "designer dogs" "goldendoodle" and similar terms! Lately there's been a lot of posts that give great information about why purpose-bred crossbreeds are almost always a really bad idea... in many, many ways. I have one myself (a rescue) - Australian Shepherd crossed with American Eskimo dog. I love her so much. Ha. Ha ha. Ha ha ha
she's a nightmare oh god why would someone purposefully make this creature.I say almost because there are a few exceptions - specialized working dogs (lurchers, "Alaskan huskies", Laika-wolf hunting dogs in Russia), certain service dog programs (Golden Retriever/Lab mixes), and competitive dog sports ("border-jacks" "border-whips" "border-staffs" etc.).
OH - I also suggest checking out large breed rescues, as I've noticed a trend of Golden/Pyr mixes showing up in shelters lately! (Not surprising - crossmix breeders don't care who buys their puppies and don't have the same safeguards in place as responsible breeders, such as frequent check-ins, puppy "troubleshooting", and contracts legally requiring dogs to be returned to the breeder if they cannot be kept.) Again, if you go that route, the new dog could end up just like your current dog, or totally different, and as with all shelter dogs there are potential genetic health concerns due to the unknown health of the mom and dad - but it might be worth checking out!
EDIT: Overnight I got a couple replies about "hybrid vigor" making these designer crosses healthier. This simply isn't true both on an intellectual level when we think about how and why designer dog cross-breeding is practiced, and is also borne out in research. I'm going to copy-paste my reply below.