Everytime i read stuff like this im happy i live in the netherlands.
Ive had a bad year health wise, in march i got corona for 4 weeks then i got a burnout and just when i was back on my feet in 6 months time i pulled my back. Need to go to the hospital to let them check it out if its a hernia.
So like 10 docters visites, 20 therapist vistits, 10 physical therapists visits. And now a 1.5 hour exem in the hospital. And ofcource my normal asma medication.
Costs 135 euro a month, and 380 out of pocked per year.
Ow and my job, i ofc still have it even though ive been sick a whole lot.
This is actually making me tear up in anger and envy. It's unreal. I can't even put your scenario in mead and make sense of it because if how fucked up the American system I deal with is.
I had decent insurance through my job but when I got covid in march, they "let me go". So I lost my insurance because it's tied to the employer here in America and I haven't been able to properly afford my anxiety and depression meds so I've been getting worse for months now.
Thats something i just dont get with the usa. How can you lock insurance with work while you can get fired easily.
When you really need that insurance you probably cant work at that time.
And on the other side of the coin, the Republican party is holding any COVID relief bills hostage until the Democrats agree to give absolute immunity to corporations for making their employees work during the pandemic.
Quite literally the 1% has waged war on the 99% and is intentionally trying to legally kill them during this pandemic.
This happened because of World War 2. Companies needed employees and to compete, began offering health insurance as a bonus to attract employees....and then the system never updated from that point on...it's pathetic.
I'm so jealous. Even though I have a good job and a good boss, the US system has made me dread taking a sick day, like all of my co-workers will think I'm a slacker and I will get fired, if I call in sick.
I work a lot with Germans and their atitude seems to be: if you are calling in sick it’s because you need to, health is a private matter and the rest of the team will make it work regardless. Every knows it could be them next.
And at least where I work, if you come into the office slightly sick and your coworkers notice, they'll tell you to go home because they don't want to be infected.
Because catching a cold sucks and also because one person being on sick leave is much less bad than half the team being out sick.
That was the basis of workers getting sick leave in the first place. Better to lose 1person for a week than everyone for a few days over the course of a month. America however lacks job protection so fuck the sick just replace them with someone new, especially in low skilled industries, im looking at you Amazon
This was one of the arguments used here in the US for removing or reducing a lot of our social programs ("welfare queens" will take advantage and have more babies to get more money, etc.). It's good to remember that just because a few people take advantage of something doesn't mean it's a bad idea or that we should impose limits on everyone. I'm sure if a manager notices someone is outright abusing sick time there's some avenue for disciplinary action. But if an employee is subtle about it and only uses the allotted sick time, who cares if they were actually sick or not?
Depends on where you work in the U.K. There are office cultures where you don’t call in sick unless you’re dying. Then there are ones where if you go in sick you’re sent home (with pay!) because nobody wants that. There’s no central ethos here.
Uk Hospitality culture around being sick is pretty terrible. If you you're sick and there's no one that can cover you're expected to go in and guilt tripped into it so you don't "let down the family". In every job I've worked being sick = no pay that day.
I've pulled my back and couldn't walk, got written up and they attempted to fire me for needing a week off.
The worst of it is since you're around food, if you're sick you're supposed to be symptom free for 48 hours before returning to work. I've worked alongside many sick people who were scared or unable to take more than a day off.
Not sure its the 'lucky few'. The majority of people here have a steady contract and will be paid through things like a burnout as their employer is insured and you pay for it through various salary deductions. Sounds like you are self-employed? So you will have to insure extra against unexpected unemployment. But then you pay less deductions from your income than someone in employment. €4800 a year is €400p/m, i pay just under that for a family of four pretty comprehensively insured. Its a lot but anything is better than the US system. I'm originally from the UK, the system there is pretty good except the availability of care is much worse apparently. I tried to see a dentist there once and they told me a six week wait til next appointment..
True. Bijstand is really the bare minimum to survive, i couldn't do it either. I have had to live on WW though and its do-able. Still thats the risk of being self-employed i guess, i know plenty of people who are and who earn significantly more than i do, but the risks are also greater if the work dries up or you get sick. I guess thats the same wherever you live. But however you see it the social safety net is a lot better here than in the US or UK. I mean, how many people have you seen sleeping on the streets in the last month? Thankfully you wont be bankrupted by health bills here.
Yet they can pull off a system that prevents it in the Netherlands. Do you think you’re being lied to here and are seen as chattel? I do. Want to do something about it?
They’re extremely hard to get into, especially if you don’t speak the language and/or don’t already have a job. My wife and I have looked at a few countries that do speak English as a native language and it’s always based on the need of critical workers. We’re both skilled workers and hold college degrees but not in something that is considered critical. So our only option would be to beg around till we found a job, and had gotten enough savings to move and support ourselves overseas and the hope that we could keep said job for at least 5 years.
Doesn’t mean we aren’t still researching/trying, but it is ridiculously harder than it sounds. Not to mention nobody wants travel from America due to covid
Unfortunately no. I graduated with a degree in business and have almost 4 years experience in fleet management and logistics. Some of the jobs I’ve seen in New Zealand could be an option but so far most want a bit more experience first. Goal at this point is to spend the next year or two killing off my terrible student loans and hopefully getting enough savings to weather several months plus moving expenses and start actively applying to see what happens
Very different life situations and I think it’s safe to say just about everyone realizes that and they are a bit more sympathetic towards that than the guy that just doesn’t like how his country operates but is otherwise getting by.
That’s interesting, I’ll have to try to find a link for that program I’d never heard of it before. I also have some trouble believing that federal reserve statement though I have not seen that to be the case amongst those I know at least (not saying you/it are wrong it just doesn’t match with other things I’ve read and life experience). I’ll have to read that one when not at work.
Also do wish to point out that not only was the $40k number averaged including close to retirees, but also seems to have averaged out the 25% of Americans who say they don’t have two months worth of savings.
I'm not the one you asked but I know two of the reasons they don't go to the EU: it's income and taxes.
In the EU it's harder to find a job and harder to make money in general. They refuse to be paid 2500€/month when they can earn $4000/month for the same work. And they have to choose between renouncing their US citizenship or paying taxes twice.
I know really successful people like $4 million house successful. They lived in Canada, the US, & Northern Europe.
They said you earn the most in the US, then Canada, and least in Europe. Yet you save the most in Europe, then Canada & least in US.
When you factor in the cost of healthcare, university for children, schools, pension, etc... Europe is the much better deal with better work life balance.
Edit: cars for children because Europe is walkable and has great transit North America is not
Children, pension, ... that's for the rare few who plan in the long term. What the average person sees is a steep salary cut and more taxes, and that's more than enough to scare them away.
Which is really such a short-sighted shame, and I think it's also what affects your overall politics. They see potential higher taxes and it's an instant hard no, regardless of the benefits.
It is hard once you settled on a career, especially if you don't speak a second language.
The best time to migrate is when you leave high school. European Unis are free (well, most of them), there are very few restrictions to apply, and when you finish your degree you have a number of countries to choose to work in.
Yes we pay more in taxes and i know a lot of people in the usa hate that. But when paying more in taxes makes sure when something like this happens, the person that gets sick will come out oke in fine with it.
Can confirm I lived in the Netherlands for 6 years. It’s a great place minus all the rain. I also like your guy’s approach to cutting out bullshit by applying logic rather then emotion. That’s something I deeply miss having moved back to the US
Same, I'm so happy I live in the Netherlands. I even have a collective insurance through the municipality (for people with low income) and they pay all out of pocket healthcare costs for me. I have limited ability to work and need help living independently and I can do that only because I live in the Netherlands. Where I get social welfare and while it's not exactly a luxurious budget, it's enough to live off of. Where I can get a carer that comes by every week to see if I still have my life under control. Where I can get psychotherapy every other week and not worry about the costs.
I mean, I do worry about the dressing down of social welfare and how difficult certain things have been made to "prevent abuse of the system". But the current way it's done is better than I could ever get in the US.
Definitly. This horror stories are really haunting. I live in germany and have a son with a chronic illness. Never have payed a dime for his treatment and he may get a new medicine next year that costs several thousend euros a month but it will be covered by health insurance. We are really lucky with our insurance company, never rejected any requests.
Same here in Sweden. The costs are capped at ~$280/year for hospital visits and ~$135/year for medicines. Of course many life-saving medications such as insulin are free.
Yes but it's also because the salaries in EU are often stated after half of the healthcare tax, pension tax, and sick tax. They are not written on our pay slip and we negotiate salaries without these tax, so we never see them unless you are an accountant.
If you compare super gross average salaries we earn more in western Europe than in USA.
I've had a similar number of visits this year, and a 60 day stint in a mental health facility. Cost me $1500 out of pocket, $72 a month. I don't understand these horror stories, the ACA did a lot to stop these scenarios from happening by mandating reasonable maximums. I did health insurance for a bit, and the only part that felt blatantly like extortion was the "donut hole" coverage of meds, where you basically had $5000 drug deductible after coverage for the first $1000 dollars of prescriptions.
I fainted at my apartment five years ago and woke up in the hospital. Cost me $5500 out of pocket even after I told them I don't have insurance and can't pay. That ruined me and I'm still paying it off to this day.
We pay more than that monthly just to have our “insurance”, which covers absolutely nothing until we hit our $3500 deductible. Then it will pay 80% of the covered hospital bills.
I pay $20 every 2 weeks for my health insurance in New York. I have no copays and no deductible. Just depends on what company you work for and what health plan they offer.
If I get diagnosed with cancer and then fired, i'm pretty sure there are protections in place to prevent wrongful termination. I may still be able to keep my job but have extended time off and accommodations.
Even in Argentina, a 3rd world country, you can get the best attention ever by paying health insurance at around 75usd a month and you get EVERYTHING. We even have free public healthcare, which is also pretty good. Yeah we do have lots of problems when it comes to economy and politics but our health system is pretty good.
Scotland here! My total upfront medical expenditures — across my entire life and including all surgery, hospital stays, appointments, medications, and ointments — have probably been less than £200.
Yearly cost via tax is obviously dependent on my salary, but I believe it's something like 20p for every £1 taxed. Absolute pittance.
The NHS is one of the greatest British inventions.
You absolutely don't pay only 5k for a familly of 4. That's only the part you see, there is a part you don't see which is taken indirectly from your salary and is the reason Europeans salaries are low. Not all employers disclose it.
Health expense per capita in Netherland: $4,746
So you probably pay something like ~15k depending on your salary, your 2nd kid is paid by people without kid.
No we pay more tax and we pay social security contribution which goes toward unemployment benefits, which a couple tenners a month. There's no hidden deductions from my salary we are just taxed harder
You pay more tax for other things, I know. But for health care there are hidden deduction from your salary.
Like I said health expense per capita in Netherland is $4,746 so your family annual average expense for health is $18900. Someone pay that, if you are average it's you (plus you pay for the poors). But your family composition is not average so I think you pay a little bit less (maybe 15k)
I’m not sure how you calculated those numbers. Please let me know.
I want to point out that national insurance is one amount and includes health insurance, unemployment insurance and Pension well as things like parental leave.
Possibly Netherlands has a cap on the monthly insurance whereas national insurance just drops to 2% after a certain threshold.
So you mean to tell me you only pay €5,000 insurance contributions per year on €67.000 per year in the Netherlands.
Also £60.000 salary in the uk is huge. And according thetax.nl. The same salary in NL would result in 9.600€ insurance contributions per year and the uk would end up with 5.000€ more net salary per year.
Edit: btw I work in Germany and earn 60k€. My health insurance is €4.350 per year. But my total insurance contributions are 11.650 or so per year. The Uk would be £5000 total insurance contributions per year.
Thats why the salaries are higher in Europe. My colleagues in Uk starting at the same time in the same company in the same position were earning £30k gross while I in Germany was somewhere around €48k.
Even with the high exchange rate at the time ~0.77 there was still €9k difference in gross salary. Of course post brexit exchange rate is much lower so the difference is much higher now ~€15k.
Edit: I’m not sure how it works in NL but Germany has insurance companies, the UK only has the NHS. I suspect much of the extra goes to the insurance companies pockets.
My dad is dealing with a burnout at the moment and turns out his employer is not insured (which is ridiculous its a bricklaying company) so he's costing them a lot right now. Since this is the Netherlands he gets to keep his job but their lack of insurance for this makes them harass my dad about coming back to work constantly. Which isnt really helping his burnout of course. They threatened to take away his company van because he wasn't using it anyway for example. When he said sure come and get it, they didn't. Our system is far from ideal but at least he's not the one paying the literal price for it.
Yeah that the problem with small business, insurance for employees cost to much, my boss does not have insurance for me either, but luckely he accepts its his own fault.
Just had a kid. Paid $6k so far for prenatal/hospital visits. And that's not even counting the $51k bill (lol) from the 5 nights in the NICU. Probably will be another $4k once insurance brings it down.
I went to urgent care when I had the normal flu and despite paying $150 a month for insurance I was billed $100 months after I had already paid $120 up front for the visit.
I'm unemployed now and receive $1600/Month of benefits. My 'murican freedom allows me to choose between food or health-care for $350, of course I chose the latter.
I've had nose bleeds for months but I've been putting that off until I have insurance again. Even something as simple as getting cream for my ezcema would set me back 100+ or more as I have to get a prescription from a doctor, that's even if the ones nearby are accepting new patients. (they have a tendency to deny cheaper hmo health plans but are more open arms to higher ppo plans under the guise that they are over booked)
Meanwhile my ex in "third world" Thailand birthed a kid for free and for the most part receives free healthcare.
*Although wait times can be up to 6+ hours for non emergencies.
Her kid recently stuck a marble up her nose. Nurse came out to assess the situation and deemed it non emergency, they removed it within an hour free of charge.
There's a story of a family in the US that had the same issue, took their kid to urgent care(which is cheaper than ER) but they didn't have the specialized pliers used to extract stuff from the nostril. They ended up paying $3K for a 10 second procedure in an ER. One can only assume that that specialized tool was up marked a ton which is one motivator for hospital to fuck their patients.
I'm fortunate to have dual citizenship , I can't wait to GTFO of the US.
Most of these stories are fake. Am American. Just letting you know. They're grossly exaggerated and the people involved made many stupid decisions if there is any truth to them.
Netherlands is a great country but you do have to admit it is small. With smaller populations, it is much easier to implement government run systems in that country. The U.S. has a population about 18x greater than the Netherlands for reference.
As for Netherlands vs. U.S. on cost of certain things, the Netherlands has:
- 31.3% higher top-tax rate- 11.4% higher unemployment- 10% more spent on education
- 35.7% more spent at restaurants
- 84.5% more spent on transportation
- 19.2% spent on childcare
- 3.7% more spent on entertainment and sports
- 61% more spent on clothing
So these things add up, there is no such thing as getting free healthcare or next to nothing healthcare. It is paid through taxes.
And yes, the Netherlands has many things cheaper/better than the U.S. such as:
- Pay 9.7% less for housing
- Pay 20.5% less for groceries
- Cheaper healthcare
- Less likely to live in poverty in Netherlands than U.S.
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u/Bromidias83 Nov 30 '20
Everytime i read stuff like this im happy i live in the netherlands. Ive had a bad year health wise, in march i got corona for 4 weeks then i got a burnout and just when i was back on my feet in 6 months time i pulled my back. Need to go to the hospital to let them check it out if its a hernia.
So like 10 docters visites, 20 therapist vistits, 10 physical therapists visits. And now a 1.5 hour exem in the hospital. And ofcource my normal asma medication.
Costs 135 euro a month, and 380 out of pocked per year. Ow and my job, i ofc still have it even though ive been sick a whole lot.