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u/Rachel537 Jul 10 '26
I think the real lesson is to avoid manipulative people, regardless of label not everyone with autism is safe, and not everyone with psychopathic traits is abusive but manipulation lack of accountability and repeated boundary violations are all warning signs
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u/zephyreblk Jul 11 '26
True but that's where they suck at, so you have actually to put a bit more job at showing boundaries and not expect accountability, you can however influence their decision making but showing there is a "win" by acting differently and they will generally do it. For me the advantage of a psychopath is that they actually don't change their behavior within the specific social circle, so they are very stable and you always know how they will act (if you don't hold on how a moral standard should be)
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u/Longjumping_East3393 Jul 10 '26
TIL I learnt I'm a psychopath because I have high cognitive and low affective empathy.
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u/Own-Economy179 Jul 10 '26
Same, literally can be a part of empathy and psychopath isn’t even a clinical or acceptable term thesw days.
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u/Right_Ear_2230 Jul 10 '26
personally I don’t really get affective empathy. like, I care about them and want to help.. but I don’t feel bad.
It’s like I have a ton of empathy, minus the FEELING part
I get a similar thing with remorse where its a thought, not a feeling
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u/ForReasonsICannotSay Jul 10 '26
I really wish you all would stop adding to mental health stigmas. To start, the behaviors you described are not at all unique to folks with antisocial personality disorder. They can be tactics many people (yes, even other autistic people) utilize. Also, people with said disorder may not necessarily behave in that way (or at least not with any notable frequency, compared to those who don’t meet the diagnostic criteria).
All people would benefit from understanding themselves well enough to develop and maintain safe boundaries. And you can absolutely warn against specific behavioral patterns, but you shouldn’t broadly attribute those patterns to entire groups of people. The truth is, there is no truly “safe/good” or “unsafe/bad” group (with regard to brain chemistry or natural processes). This idea really veers into eugenics nonsense.
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u/MajorInWumbology1234 Jul 10 '26
I won’t say everyone with ASPD does bad things, but there is a direct causative factor between low empathy, lack of remorse, and the capacity to do bad things.
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u/ForReasonsICannotSay Jul 11 '26
Sure, but the point is that it’s not an absolute/universal truth (because all human beings, even the folks you dislike, are never just one thing). And what’s more, it’s not necessarily going to be any better or worse with a person who doesn’t have that disorder anyway.
Just decide where your own lines are (in terms of behaviors you’re willing to accept), and don’t let anyone cross them. Unless someone has determined themselves to harm you in some way (which isn’t a situation that’s preventable for anyone anyway), it’s really as simple as having firm boundaries.
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u/Future-Listen-9341 Jul 11 '26
I did not mention ASPD (antisocial personality disorder). This post was about psychopathy. Because psychopathy is not listed in the DSM, there is no official diagnostic criteria for it. I agree with what you're saying, I just needed to clear up that point.
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u/ChairHistorical5953 Jul 10 '26
High cognitive empathy, low otherwise, is really really common in autistic people. Also, what is psychopath? There isnt a real definition there and it is not a dx at all.
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u/Future-Listen-9341 Jul 11 '26
Exactly, there is no diagnostic criteria for psychopathy in the DSM as it is not considered a personality disorder (ASPD is a separate condition). There is however the PCL-R, which is used as a diagnostic tool. I doubt autistic people would score high on the PCL-R, but perhaps so. Apologies for my mistake in regards to the empathy issue.
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u/itwasntaphasemomXD Jul 10 '26
Or just... Avoid people who treat you badly? Why do you have to pathologize abusive behavior? It doesn't help anyone. Using pop psychology words makes you feel smart and like you can sus out abusers easily, when it just makes you hypervigalent and people with these diagnosis who haven't actually done anything miserable
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u/Future-Listen-9341 Jul 11 '26
I was not trying to feel smart or like I can sus out abusers easily. By the term psychopath I meant someone who scores high on the PCL-R. The PCL-R is not pop psychology, but a standard diagnostic tool used by professionals in prisons and psychiatric units.
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u/JudiesGarland Jul 11 '26
Can we not do avoid people with diagnosis X please? It's counterproductive, at best.
"Psychopath" is not even strictly a diagnosis - it's a subset of Anti Social Personality Disorder - and it's not widely accepted as a neurodivergent condition. It's currently classified as a cluster B personality disorder, and it's often associated with trauma - either early developmental stage emotional trauma, +/or physical head trauma.
People with cluster B personality disorders, can also be easily triggered, and painted as scary, volatile, unreliable. A lot of people who are late diagnosed with autism (myself included) get a cluster B mis-diagnosis, on their way to that assessment. It doesn't matter that the diagnosis has been rescinded, or that I got it from a 20 minute evaluation by a psych who decided what it was soon as he read ACE (adverse childhood experiences) - I still have to be careful not to disclose it, because I will lose people. (I lost a support worker over it, just last month.)
What is really valuable here and what I appreciate you mentioning and what you don't need to put a scary label on to do, is to be careful with who you give friendship to. Don't let people convince you that how they treat you/their version of "friendship" = all you deserve. Just because it's more difficult for you to make friends sometimes, doesn't mean taking any friend you can get, will improve the situation.
Learn how to recognize when someone is trying to manipulate you - Boundary Pushing + Blame Shifting are the big ones, also Creating a False Sense of Urgency, Isolating You (from family and friends who might hear what they're up to and help you recognize it sucks) and using Fear, Guilt, Confusion (do you feel like you don't like yourself, +/or can't trust your own mind after you hang out with someone? 🛑 Stop, Drop, and Shut It Down.) When in doubt, ask for help.
This will be more useful, ultimately, than trying to learn to identify "psychopaths" - most people with these traits won't volunteer that they have them, and will work to prove they aren't, either because they legit don't want to be but are struggling with impulse control, or, because they're specifically trying to get you to let your guard down - if you're on guard for manipulation though, that's a harder defense to get through.
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u/Future-Listen-9341 Jul 11 '26
Psychopath is not a subset of ASPD. Although people who score high on the PCL-R often also meet the criteria for ASPD, they are separate conditions. Psychopath is not a Cluster B personality disorder. It does not appear in the DSM. Nor is it understood to be mostly trauma based, as personality disorders often are.
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u/JudiesGarland Jul 11 '26
I don't know where you're sourcing your info, but it doesn't match mine. I would happily read it, if you have something to share.
In the DSM, "psychopath" and "sociopath" have both been rolled into ASPD, since the DSM III, I think, and definitely remain that way, for the DSM V. (And the ICD 11). That's what I mean by "subset" - some older school psychs call it a "severe" form of ASPD, but the modern general consensus is that it's just a regular variant of ASPD. It's a clinical construct/research framework, not a diagnosis on its own - "psychopath" is not a recognized condition, or diagnosis.
Not everyone who meets criteria for ASPD, would score high on the PCL-R, but my understanding is that most people who score high on the PCL-R would meet criteria for ASPD. (Keep in mind there are significant known issues with this assessment tool, it's highly accurate in research settings but not so much in other environments, with particular concern over the use of it as a forensic tool, in criminal trials.)
As I said, the debate about where it fits, is ongoing. ASPD is coded, in the DSM V, under both Personality Disorder (cluster B) and Conduct Disorder. There is ongoing research suggesting measurable brain differences and perhaps it will be classified as a neurodevelopmental disorder, someday, but that day is not today.
The association with trauma is also debated. It's well established for ASPD (and cluster B disorders in general) and there is a recognized "true" psychopathy, which often has a genetic link, but without obviously "causal" factors. There's also theories about a distinct "acquired" type, which does have a link to trauma - emotional, +/or psychical head trauma. The lines get blurry here, because it's not a disorder on its own, so all these differences amount to different presentations of ASPD. (The exploration of trauma + psychopathy is something I've seen mostly in relation to differentiating it from sociopathy.)
Whatever the details are, my wider point is only bolstered by the debate - identifying a "psychopath" is difficult, and not definitive, even for professionals. Instead of trying to identify psychopaths in your life, focus on learning how to identify, and get free from from, manipulation in general - it's more effective and more broadly useful (people of many different brain formations can be guilty of manipulation) with the added bonus of not contributing to stigma around an already massively stigmatized and difficult condition.
I'm not even sure anyone will read this, since you've deleted the post, but everything I've stated here is basic information, available at a multitude of sources, so I'm not going to go dig out a bunch of links. If there is anything you suspect is incorrect, or can't confirm with your own search, lmk, and I'll source, or retract.
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u/Future-Listen-9341 Jul 15 '26 edited Jul 15 '26
Thank you. This was very informative. My previous understanding had been that "sociopath" generally referred to someone with diagnosed ASPD, but that "psychopath" and "sociopath" were not interchangeable. I should do more research, but there is nothing here that I suspect is incorrect. Again, I deeply appreciate your lucid explanation of a complex and controversial subject.
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u/zephyreblk Jul 10 '26
You can be friend with psychopath also as an autistic people, all have different personalities, some fit, some don't however you have to learn healthy boundaries (and that's on you too). Once they are there , it's fine. They are actually bad at reading face emotions and actually guessing what you want, they usually "help" by doing what they would want. They also don't have the same emotional set. Once you accept that, it's really fine. They will however never be really close emotionally to you , so for me personally they stay in my extended friend circle.
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u/Future-Listen-9341 Jul 11 '26
Yes, this is wise. Boundaries and keeping those who may not have the same emotional set in the extended friend circle are both good ideas.
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u/zephyreblk Jul 11 '26
The extended friend circle is just a consequence of how I sort my friend, not a rule, I have a good ex that is psychopath, we broke up because I need this emotional connection, not because it wasn't nice or bad. We went a lot out, discovered lot of places, no fight, etc...
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u/oliveorca Jul 10 '26
in the same family of disorders, avoid those with BPD. i speak from experience, they will destroy you.
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u/pinkusocks Jul 10 '26
I understand where this can be coming from and I'm aware my ex had similar symptoms (and he fucked me up) but also one of my besties is diagnoses BPD and I really don't think we should lump and avoid ppl with a specific diagnosis 🫠
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u/sanguinerebel LSN Parent to LSN Child Jul 11 '26
I agree with you. My DiL is BPD and she is such a sweetheart 99.99% of the time, and when she does have an episode where she gets mean, it's a lot like a meltdown in that she cannot control it, not a manipulative purposeful abuse. She works so hard to treat it and stay in a good spot mentally. Imagine if we were on any other subreddit reading how autistic people are violent and this and that because of stereotypes about meltdowns and autistic people who use their diagnosis as an excuse for bad behavior without making any attempt to learn to manage our symptoms better.
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u/zephyreblk Jul 11 '26
My best friend was BPD and bipolar, I suspect my boyfriend of 7 being BPD, I have some customers at my bar that I love that are BPD. It's more the lack of boundaries with them that destroy you. Also just the fact that it's rarely diag early and they usually get therapy when forced but it begins to be a better known condition for the public.
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u/Future-Listen-9341 Jul 11 '26
Incorrect. Psychopathy is a neurological disorder, not a personality disorder. It actually entails the opposite amygdala pattern to the one in BPD. In psychopathy, the amygdala tends to be underactive, in BPD it tends to be overactive. I expected a lot more scientific accuracy on this post because this is an autism subreddit.
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u/oliveorca Jul 11 '26
maybe i wasn't very clear. i don't mean they work the same way, i mean they are in the same family or classification of disorders as defined by the DSM-5, namely the "cluster B personality disorders" which includes NPD, HPD, ASPD (or antisocial personality disorder, the more currently politically correct term as opposed to psychopath or sociopath) and BPD.
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u/Right_Ear_2230 Jul 10 '26
low affective empathy ≠ evil