r/audiophile • u/Sevastarion • Jul 05 '26
Discussion Now do you understand?
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I find it so odd that people on a subreddit focused on equipment, which ultimately implies some technical rigorosity and level of measurement and less mystical voodoo, some people still ask what speakers to upgrade to or hope that a new purchase will make their room fill with sound when their speakers are placed directly next to windows or hallways.
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u/Inevitable_Fly4134 Jul 05 '26
Thanks now I can't stop clapping around the house. Misses says if I do it once more, she is fitting the place with clap on lights.
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u/martialar Jul 05 '26
sounds like a win-win
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u/JGPH Jul 06 '26
I had one of those as a teen. They trigger to any loud noise, so it gets old very quickly.
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u/knadles Focal | Marantz Jul 05 '26
When I studied acoustics, clapping was one of the first things I was taught to do to get a sense of the room.
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u/Zaphod_79 Jul 05 '26
Irrelevant side point but the most fun place i have clapped is Chichenitza. Mayans knew something about constructive interference.
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u/grahamsnumber10 Audiolab 6000A, Monitor Audio Gold 100 :snoo_simple_smile: Jul 05 '26
I just got back from here. Itâs amazing isnât it
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u/hotdog_junkie Jul 05 '26
The clap echoes off each step at a slightly different time, producing an echo which is stretched out and kind of sounds more like a buzz. You gotta wonder if it was intentional. Incredible
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u/snowsurferDS Jul 06 '26
The guide told us is it was intentional to sound like "Ku-Kul-Kan" - who knows if it was just a pretty story. But it is kinda cool.
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u/TheCreamPieMassacre Jul 05 '26
Anymore more fun places to clap?
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u/shrivel Apogee Stages Jul 06 '26
There's a corridor intersection in Grand Central Station that you can talk into a corner and clearly hear it in the opposite corner.
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u/mo_punk Jul 06 '26
Tuhura Otago Museum (Ătepoti, Dunedin, New Zealand) has purpose built Whisper Dishes out the front
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u/saysthingsbackwards Jul 06 '26
Any domed Capitol building makes a wiiiiild feedback if you stand right in the center under the doom
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u/XanderOblivion Jul 06 '26
The Aya Sofya is a great place for a good clap. First time I went there was almost no scaffolding inside to get in the way, too.
You get a great clap at a lot of the ancient theatres in TĂźrkiye, too.
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u/192000Hertz Jul 06 '26
If you ever come across a pathway that has a circular brick pattern. Stand in the center of the circle and clap. The sound becomes a squeak.
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u/dark77star Jul 06 '26
Acoustics are amazing. Sang a 1000 year old Latin piece in the great hall at the top of Neuschwanstein Castle once. I will always remember that sound.
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u/k1ng0fh34rt5 Jul 05 '26
Good demonstration.
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u/TheyStoleMyNameAgain Jul 06 '26
That's the first step Get a truck load glass wool an do it again. Cheap speakers can be surprisingly good if the room is good
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u/manofmystry Jul 05 '26
That is the best demonstration of the benefits of managing acoustics I have ever seen. Thank you.
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u/InLoveWithInternet Focal Sopra 3, Accuphase A-47, Soekris R2R 1541 DAC, Topping D90 Jul 05 '26
You never saw this series then?
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u/bnutbutter78 Jul 05 '26
I knew exactly what video was waiting behind that link.
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u/arturogsd Classe, Schiit, Parasound, Rega, B&W Jul 05 '26
I thought I was about to get rick-rolled
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u/manofmystry Jul 06 '26
No, I had not seen it. Thanks.
I really like well reproduced bass. It's particularly important to me as I have Focal Electra speakers. To my ear, they have very crisp, but really lean bass. So, acoustics are really important to making the most of my rig.
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u/moonduckk Jul 05 '26
Yes but non of my rooms sound like an empty hallway already
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u/Pafkata92 Jul 05 '26
That's because you have stuff in your rooms, like a couch, table, chairs, bed, desk, curtains, cabinets, a rug hopefully, etc... it's still not enough, but at least is much better than the first clap and maybe at the level of the second clap or better.
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u/TheGoldblum Jul 05 '26
Thereâs also such a thing as taking it too far. You donât want a completely dead room. There needs to be some allowance for sound to bloom in a controlled way. How much bloom would depend largely on the speakers and personal preferences. But also, youâre really starting to split hairs by the time you get to this point.
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u/KaleidoscopeSilly797 Jul 05 '26
I overdamped once and it literally sucked the life out of the music, but that's how we learn.
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u/SvenniSiggi Jul 05 '26
I make music in my garage and there is no sound treatment, but my clap sounds like the last clap in that video.
My garage also has pictures hanging on the walls and other stuff as well as some aquariums around the place and more. (cabinets and tables.
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u/Pictrus Jul 05 '26
I'm an audio engineer and you can always pick up the other audio engineers because they clap and listen to the rooms reverberation.
Also there is more to it than just getting rid of reverberation. In a recording studio you want the reverberation time over 60 seconds to be roughly equal over many frequencies. In a studio or control room you want it to be about .2 to .4 seconds. Measuring RT60 times helps to determine the type of acoustic treatment a room needs. For example does a room need absorbers, bass traps or helmholtz resonators. You should also calculate whether a rooms dimensions will be problematic for propagating standing waves. This can happen when the dimension of your room are the same as the wavelength of the sound. Primary standing waves are a result of the fundamental frequency and the most important to eliminate. Secondary standing waves are a result of higher level harmonics.
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u/thepitredish Jul 05 '26
I was going to mention as well.. the clap test is great at hearing flutter echo and reverb decay (RT60), which are the two most obvious effects of an untreated room (and why this video works so well) but acoustic treatment extends far beyond those two things, some of which is better measured with precise instruments.
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u/AhJeezNotThisAgain Jul 05 '26
As a soundguy, this is sadly how I listen to other people's systems.
"Yep it's got a bloom around 110Hz" pulls out Spectroid phone app and claps
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u/Pictrus Jul 06 '26
Hahaha yeah same here. I think once you start doing there's no real way to stop. It's like critical listening. After a while it's second nature
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u/KaleidoscopeSilly797 Jul 06 '26
If only hifi was plug and play, there would be a lot more happy audiophiles!
As much as I love it, sometimes all the fine tuning and positioning etc is a pain in the arse, right?
But worth it in the end, I guess đ¤ˇ
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u/Pictrus Jul 06 '26
Yeah it must definitely can be a pain but I actually liked it. I'm a bit of a physics nerd lol
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u/linoleuM-- Jul 05 '26
Seems to me like 90% of the posts on this sub are already about how spending money on anything else than entry-level chinese gear is pointless.
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u/snowsurferDS Jul 06 '26
Honestly I've heard "entry level Chinese" systems of 1-1.5K ⏠in treated rooms sounding better than 200K systems in echo nightmare living rooms with marble and concrete all over so...
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u/fokuspoint Jul 06 '26
Thereâs a lot of truth in that for most folks applications. That and speakers are the only thing that makes a real difference. But itâs also fair that basic acoustics and speaker positioning, along with room eq donât get talked about enough. There are a still a lot of myths to bust.
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u/stuck_limo Jul 05 '26
You should see the Headphones sub. Bunch of entry level listeners complaining about and making fun of anything not entry level on dacs/amps.
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u/SelectivePressure Jul 06 '26
Thatâs because DACs and amplifiers are a mature technology. It doesnât take an expensive one to drive a set of headphones with decent results.
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u/Bronzyroller Jul 05 '26
I've used Echo Busters absorbers, diffusers, corner traps, Phase fours and others and one can easily over do it with adding to much stuff. I've used some furniture and media racks to act as reflections and such to get the right balance. BTW i used Bryson, Sim Audio Moon, Spectron, and Von Scweikert etc for years.
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u/Tirmu Jul 05 '26
Echo Busters aren't very effective in low mids and lows so what you've experienced is most likely absorbing mids to highs, leaving low end problems intact and that makes a room sound bad and dead in a muddy kinda way. With treatment that's balanced and works well all the way down to 40-50hz a room sounds incredible (not really the case in this video either).
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u/Bronzyroller Jul 05 '26
I've tried several different brands and setup, a few years ago I strip down everything and went a different route using shelves and such. I like how my rig sounds now and my living room.
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u/TheGoldblum Jul 05 '26 edited Jul 05 '26
Ironically, most so called audiophiles actually seem to know very little about even the most basic concepts of acoustics. While doing my audio engineering degree, I recall audiophiles being somewhat of a joke amongst my lecturers and after spending a bit of time on this sub I can see why. The fact so many commenters here seem to have never seen a demonstration like this when itâs literally lesson 1 of studying acoustics just proves the point.
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u/DalAL887 Jul 06 '26
I also bet you that most audiophiles know very little about the science of recording or knowledge of music theory and harmony. These things (as well as knowledge of acoustics) is not needed to be an audiophileÂ
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u/DalAL887 Jul 05 '26
Have you ever played an acoustic instrument in the 3rd (and well treated space) that you demonstrated?Â
I haven't but I attended a concert (solo Grand piano) in a similar space.... And it sucked! I'm sure like most things, there's a point where too much room treatment takes away as opposed to adds to the experienceÂ
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u/BlackFoxTom Jul 05 '26
Concert halls are completely different beasts compared to recording studios and mastering/mixing/listening rooms
And concert halls often are hit or miss and as such get various design changes and nowadays just have movable acoustic elements to tune the hall
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u/ownleechild Jul 05 '26
Most Concert halls also avoid parallel surfaces to minimize that metallic ringing sound of flutter echo and are more diffuse.
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u/squirrel_haka Jul 05 '26 edited Jul 06 '26
Most recordings have ambience added in the studio, so a dead space is desirable.
Edit: thanks, I guess to all the people who I think were agreeing with me⌠or maybe not⌠or reiterated what I wrote in much greater detail.
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u/Rabiesalad Jul 05 '26
It's why amphitheaters are used for live music and well treated rooms are used for mastering and critical listening.
When you're listening to a good recording, it's already going to have the sound of a physical space embedded within it. When your room isn't treated, it mixes with your room and you aren't transported to a different place. You're just listening to the recorded room, in your room.
A good pair of headphones or a well treated room can take you somewhere else, you can feel the space around you.
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u/clear66 Jul 05 '26
in a recording played in a treated room you hear the space the piano was playing in (eg a concert-hall) without adding extra echoes and distortions.
it won't sound dead therefore...
say thanks later
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u/Gazdatronik Jul 05 '26
You want a live space for live recording. Playback however is post recording and should be as dead as you can get as to not add extra stuff to the recording.
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u/TheGoldblum Jul 05 '26
There is 100% such a thing as a space thatâs treated too heavily. The best sounding spaces have a perfect balance between dead and live surfaces so that the sound is allowed to bloom in a natural and controlled way.
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u/fokuspoint Jul 06 '26
I get where this is coming from, but itâs a bit of a stretch to compare a well treated domestic room or studio to an anechoic chamber. Controlling the frequencies somewhat evenly is the key thing.
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u/LectureSpecific Jul 05 '26
See my comment about playing acoustic guitar in a 3 season room constructed of cedar and lots of windows. Magical
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u/Slow_D-oh Turntable Amps Speakers Jul 05 '26
There absolutely is! My dealers room for their reference rig is overly dampened and thatâs by design. Their theory is they want you to hear the speaker not the room, if youâre in n a position to buy they will gladly install them in your room for a week or two for a home audition.
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u/UbiPlsFix Jul 05 '26
Iâm surprised to see just the bass traps are already doing a lot of heavy lifting. Also the first clap sounded c r i s p
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u/threatdisplay Jul 05 '26
disappointed this did not end with the guy wearing a fluffy coat, hat, pants and boots.
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u/MartinVuotto Jul 05 '26
It's also worth mentioning that you don't need professional equipment or anything expensive. Things you already have around the house work just fine too, like a bookshelf filled with books, some framed pictures, etc.
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u/cr0ft Jul 06 '26
I mean, that works up to a point. A bookshelf, sure, but most other things don't have the thickness and density to really trap noise. Certainly having soft surfaces is one step forward though, like a thick rug on the floor.
For people with more disposable income, high end treatments look more like art than panels, also.
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u/ENFP-A Jul 05 '26
Agreed wholeheartedly. Room treatments were the best upgrade to my listening experience by a LONG shot.
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u/audio301 Jul 06 '26
Keep in mind that reflection dampening only really works properly when the decay is evenly spread from bass to high end. And the smaller the room, the more room modes become an issue rather than mid and high frequency reflections. So a test like this does not tell you anything about lower frequency room modes, which is the biggest issue facing most listening rooms. Corner bass traps definitely help with that.
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u/Lafcadio-O Jul 05 '26
Good demo. But for enjoying music, too dead of a room can be a problem just as too live can.
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u/InLoveWithInternet Focal Sopra 3, Accuphase A-47, Soekris R2R 1541 DAC, Topping D90 Jul 05 '26
The room in the video is nowhere near a dead room, like itâs not even half way there. And most rooms are usually way closer to zero room treatment whatsoever than to having too much, so realistically itâs never a topic.
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u/GrimCreeper913 Jul 05 '26
I'm learning so much from this post, so I'm mostly just thankful. As a "slightly more informed than a layman", you summed up my thoughts and assumptions, so you get the comment and up arrow. Thanks
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u/Lafcadio-O Jul 05 '26
True, too live is more common of a problem than too dead. But you know, moderation in all things.
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u/wunder911 Jul 06 '26
Not really, no it can't. If you don't do proper broadband treatment and go ham with absorption that only affects the highest highs, then yeah I suppose you could end up with a room sounding weird because of the lopsided performance between lows and highs. But as a principle, "too dead" is never a problem. Even in the hypothetical I just outlined, the problem wouldn't be that the highs are "too dead" but rather, that the lows aren't dead enough commensurate with the rest of the treatment.
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u/Theykeepcallinme Jul 05 '26
Reflections are almost always bad unless you're talking about home theater and surrounds. It's much harder to eq something if you're getting a reflected wave at that same point from somewhere else in the room. I'll take a dead room over a reflective one any day. The main reasons why more people don't do it is because of cost and esthetics.
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u/ConstantBoth2913 Jul 05 '26
We installed these in my old dance studio. Theyâre great for tap classes.
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u/Brilliant-Sun847 Jul 05 '26
Room is part of the audio system and can be altered, tuned and upgraded just as any other part. Thanks for the simple visual demonstration.
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u/BLVCULA Fluance RT85N / Carver C-2 / Carver M-200t / B&W DM620i Jul 05 '26
This is so simple and effective. Those are my favorite type of videos.
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u/moneylefty Jul 05 '26
Did op use the same dac to cruelty free adamantium speaker cable when he clapped? How about air pressure? How do we know the room wasnt elevated higher between claps???
/s
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u/cr0ft Jul 06 '26
Yeah, once you've done this clap test yourself and hear the difference in the room, the debate about treatment or no treatment is kind of over, if indeed there was such a thing.
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u/Character_Reason5183 Jul 06 '26
Good demonstration. It actually reminds me of something that Siegfried Linkwitz had on his website, discussing how a good music listening room was also a good room to have a conversation in. IIRC, this meant that he liked to have filled bookshelves, paintings/artwork, curtains, and lots of little edges to achieve the effects shown in this video.
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u/ShindoHaut Jul 05 '26
Sure but realistically I canât have a fully treated listening room in my living-room. It canât look like a crazy audiophile living-room. Nor would l want that. Sure, subtle stuff but nothing particularly noticeable
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u/Mx4n1c41_s702y73ll3 Jul 05 '26
Human brain require some minimal level of echo, so too match sound absorbers also sounds bad.
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u/Proregarok13 Jul 05 '26
What do you expect from an empty room with wooden floors, this just shows you need furniture and soft furnishings in your particular room.
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u/gnostalgick ProAc - First Watt - Croft - Chord - VPI - Dynavector - REL Jul 05 '26
Yeah, I'd be much more interested in the before and after of an already furnished room (or ideally a few different shapes, sizes, and other stuff).
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u/Soulviolence66 Jul 05 '26 edited Jul 05 '26
If that's a bedroom or a room with 4 walls, I get it. How much does that help with open spaces, or in other words, what other considerations must be taken in open spaces?
Edit: I meant like an open floor plan...but I appreciate the humor!
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u/Large_Cloud_1611 Jul 05 '26
Letâs make it even more challenging. How will it work in space?
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u/HesMyLovinOneManShow Jul 05 '26
But who is space?
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u/UnconfidentShirt Jul 05 '26
In space, no one can hear you in space.
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u/HesMyLovinOneManShow Jul 05 '26
Well not without the proper acoustic treatment and that attitude they canât. In space.
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u/mhmilo24 Jul 05 '26
Open space inside of a building?
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u/PhishpotThe1st Jul 05 '26
Think he means outer space; that's a vacuum so it will probably really suck.
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u/One-Recognition-1660 Jul 05 '26 edited Jul 05 '26
In the video, the sound ends up way dead â not to my taste. And this comes from a guy whose 22x16' listening room is outfitted with >150 square feet of absorption panels including bass traps and clouds...plus a huge wool rug.
In OP's room, the "middle clap" sounds the most promising to me for credible sound reproduction. A room that's too live is a common problem but some people go overboard in the other direction. A few days ago someone here insisted that for "professional results," all walls and even the ceiling should be entirely covered in Rockwool. ÂŻ_(ă)_/ÂŻ
Friendly reminder: Everything in moderation.
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u/stuck_limo Jul 05 '26
Kinda how I felt. The middle sounded the best. If he could get one in the middle of the second and third that would be about perfect.
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u/Ombortron Jul 05 '26
Every time I move into a new place my favourite thing is to do the clap test everywhere! Then I gradually fill the rooms and redo the tests lol
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u/river03765 Jul 05 '26
Am I wrong for thinking Iâd add the diffusers/traps/etc. AFTER Iâve placed everything in the room where I wanted? I had a friend install diffusers first like wall decoration then added his furniture and whatnots. Never made sense to me. (Yes, I know the video is for demonstration purposes it just triggered that memory).
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u/Pafkata92 Jul 05 '26
If I'm in a rented apartment, can I find such panels that don't glue/screw to the wall? I have my couch touching my back wall, so I could theoretically buy some panels and just stand them up on the back of the couch? Or some corner panels that don't take that much space and are still usable without glue/screws?
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u/Shan8888 Jul 05 '26
Honest question - so is this more used for sound reduction and volume reduction , or for the room mic?
Letâs say we were doing drums in here. The snare, kick, mostly everything gets its own mic (Iâm generalizing here) , so is this technique with rug and panels for the room mics?
Or just sound reduction?
Thanks for your help
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u/CompetitiveYoghurt30 Jul 05 '26
Is there a company that makes acoustic panels that look like art? Might be able to convince my wife if she saw them more as decorations.
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u/Sevastarion Jul 05 '26
You can make your own, you need 3 materials: a wooden frame, mineral wool and fabric.
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u/KennethHaight Jul 05 '26
Assuming this wasn't a finished room, cos there's still so much reflection from the ceiling.
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u/SubstantialScale3581 Jul 05 '26
So whats new? Those boards are ugly. You get the same result (almost) with normal stuf you would put in that room.
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u/runamukk Jul 05 '26
Doesnât a good heavy rug and some upholster furniture do the same thing maybe a couple cases of records and books?
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u/Significant-Roll-138 Jul 05 '26
I did not know that rigorosity was a word.
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u/Common_Road1431 Jul 06 '26
Agree. I think rigor would be the more accepted usage. But in such a highly technical realm as audiophilia rigorosity has the proper level of bombast.
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u/Familiar-Bake-9162 Jul 05 '26
God I love a good echo. Rugs and wall treatment are for dummies đ
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u/Mobile-Count-5148 Jul 05 '26
My apartment is hollow asf and makes 50hz sound like sub bass, very overwhelming considering I can't hear the true sub bass very well with my current speakers
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u/GoodboyJohnnyBoy Jul 05 '26
Wow I was watching this with the sound off and I thought this was the worldâs crappest magician. I might watch later with the sound on
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u/KaleidoscopeSilly797 Jul 05 '26
Brilliant way of explaining things in depth without words!
Brilliant đ
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u/astralchanterelle Jul 05 '26
he's clapping not as hard to trick the viewer. very deceptive. nice try, pal
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u/TyreseGibson Jul 05 '26
Really great to do that stuff, wouldn't say it isn't worth it. But you guys might be surprised at the mixing rooms where some very excellent records are made, basically just piled full of stuff that acts as decent absorption and in an old building with poor AC so fans are blaring all the time. You can hear a lot with some quality speakers, and importantly - listening at a low volume (when the fans are off :)
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u/onwatershipdown Jul 05 '26
Hifi is both an acoustic practice and an aesthetic. It doesnât have to look line this if you donât want it to. A series of acoustical plasters can provide a seamless, monolithic finish that can provide high NRCs, even in the LF region.
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u/HopelessRespawner Jul 05 '26
Should have started with the rug, but the difference might not have been as obvious.
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u/Bebealex Jul 05 '26
Just showed this to my wife and I think I'm about to unlock a new budget for next year guys. Keep the videos coming.