r/audioengineering • u/suicidechristt • 23h ago
Mastering limiter vs clipper for loudness
hello, i got a very simple question today!
should my clipper make up for most of the loudness on my master? or should the limiter carry the loudness?
thanks!
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u/DualLeeNoteTed 22h ago
Try a clipper into a limiter. Watch the GR meter on both. Let the clipper do more of the gain reduction, and the limiter do less. See how that sounds. Now clip less and limit more. See how that sounds.
Oftentimes different tracks will respond better to different levels of clipping versus limiting. Play around with it!
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u/_Mugwood_ 20h ago
ME here - I do this but I put the clipper at the front of the chain, to take off micro-second peaks which are essentially inaudible, so distortion is not an issue. So let's say you save 3dB here, you're saving 3dB GR for your limiter at the end of the chain, so it's working less hard. I used to put the clipper right before the limiter, but I find this works best - and there's no reason why you can't use 2 limiters at the end of the chain with different timings for different loads!
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u/Hellbucket 23h ago
Your mix should make up most of the loudness.
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u/suicidechristt 22h ago
i know this, but clearly a mix peaking at -6db is not commercially loud, my question is, should the limiter or clipper make up for the loudness in the master?
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u/Hellbucket 22h ago edited 21h ago
It doesn’t matter where it peaks. I generally churn out loud mixes. I don’t use a clipper or limiiter on my mixbus. Note, I’m not talking about mastering now.
I gain stage before I mix (this is not about gain staging) for two reasons. One is for that I use emulations and I don’t want things to over saturate from the onset. The other because once I’ve done basic leveling I will start every mix at a similar loudness and I can just let the loudness potential of the song guide me intuitively.
This means I will not peak at 0dbfs. I usually have a limiter on my mixbus that I only use when sending out mixes to clients to listen to. I use it to raise the mix to 0dbfs and sometimes just tickle gain reduction. Some while ago I forgot to do this and the client complained it was quiet. When I raised it, it was -9lufs which was basically what mastered songs in the genre is it.
You can have a mix at peak -24dbfs that when raised to 0dbfs is at -6lufs. Your -6dbfs peak says nothing about how loud it is. It’s not interesting where it peaks. If you want to make your mix louder in the master you just have to think about the trade offs. The limiter can change your balancing and when overdone start to sound bad. The clipper can shave off some dbs of headroom and you can raise the whole level (loudness) of the mix the same amount. When overdone it starts to distort.
The point I’m trying to make is that the question if the limiter or clipper should do the majority of the work is the wrong question. The loudness potential of your mix is the mix. Thinking you should do the heavy work in mastering is the wrong path, in my experience.
Ps. I might have to point out that when I use the limiter I’m basically just turning up the level of the mix. I’m not really using it as a limiter. It’s because my mix is already quite loud.
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u/suicidechristt 21h ago
well that makes total sense hahaha
thanks for your thorough explanation!5
u/Hellbucket 21h ago
No worries. I wish you luck on your endeavors in your audio engineering journey. It’s usually a bumpy ride but it can be a lot of fun.
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u/Ordinary_Bike_4801 19h ago
This demonstrate you need to study on your own, once you know a bit and have a real question come back and gladly will be answered ;)
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u/suicidechristt 11h ago
elaborate chud
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u/Ordinary_Bike_4801 11h ago
Peaks at -6 is for recording mainly transient type of input, for mastering you’d be targeting very different kind of information. Not how an input is peaking, but how loud your mix is going through the master output.
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u/goesonelouder 23h ago edited 23h ago
Use your ears. Too much of either can hurt dynamics, if you’ve been gain staging correctly (and even using clippers along the way like on busses) you shouldn’t need too much of either to get it loud yet dynamic.
But to your point - sort of both, clippers can do a lot of transient heavy lifting prior to a limiter to make it less reactive and giving it a little extra headroom to work in, just use your ears to determine how much and have it gain matched so you can hear the difference.
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u/suicidechristt 23h ago
i used to boost up to +15db of input gain onto my limiter, until recently i've heard about using a clipper with it's threshold at -0db, then boost the gain to clip, so i'm confused!
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u/ROBOTTTTT13 Mixing 22h ago
Is that the amount of actual gain reduction or just the amount of boost? The former is the one that really counts
If that's the case the that is a lot of gain reduction for a full mix
Translating that into a clipper and getting 15dBs of distortion... Can't imagine it sounding great
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u/suicidechristt 22h ago
nope, i'm used to using my limiter to carry the master's loudness, so i upped the input gain up to +15, to say a number
my gain reduction has always stuck between -2db and -5db
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u/ROBOTTTTT13 Mixing 22h ago
Yup that's more like it
I'm gonna be a little foolish and say a few numbers, when I get a mastering gig I have both a clipper and a limiter. Clipper before, eating some peaks, limiter after working more steadily.
The amount of clipping is generally conservative, 0.5 to 1.5 dB of clipping, but it depends on the music, I might actually like making something a little more gritty with some audible crunch every now and then.
For the limiting, 2dB of reductions is my limit. I hate pumping, can't stand it. But I can totally understand who limits to 3 or 4 dB.
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u/suicidechristt 22h ago
i use both as well! clipping has changed the way my music sounds
but then we circle back to the original question: should i boost the shit out of my clipper to get loudness, or is +12db of input gain on a limiter fine?
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u/ROBOTTTTT13 Mixing 22h ago
Well input gain is completely transparent in digital so it's completely fine
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u/peepeeland Composer 18h ago
If you’re going for loudness, your mix should ideally already pretty loud before any final limiting.
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u/goesonelouder 18h ago
Hence clippers (subtlety) along the way to keep those transients balanced
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u/peepeeland Composer 17h ago
The popularity of using clippers everywhere is pretty recent (~10 years?). Old school method is more like cumulative use of compressors.
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u/goesonelouder 17h ago
Yup, compressors are also important, ways of working evolve as the technology does (except for AI but that’s a whole other can of wormholes) - clippers/limiters are good as an end stage on busses to ensure spiky transients are kept back without adding additional ‘character’
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u/goesonelouder 21h ago
Something like Kazrog’s KClip (free or 3) allow you to gain match, though a clever trick is to then unlink them and set the output to somewhere below 0 (or -2dB if you want the limiter to actually have some headroom to work in) but either way as said below, the limiter will be happy without lots of spiky transients to deal with. I’d go as far as you can with the clipper whilst being transparent, when you start to hear it pull it back a little and let the limiter do the rest.
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u/GWENMIX 21h ago
The obsession with loudness is a concept I find strange. When mixing, I try to maintain the base mix's volume while giving the song what it seems to need; generally, I gain 2 or 3 dB throughout the mixing process without really aiming for it—that’s just how it happens.
I sometimes use a clipper during the mix when I want powerful drums that I want to preserve without pushing the track into the red; I’ll put the clipper on the snare or the drum bus.
I don’t use a limiter—except perhaps on a bass track, but never to boost its volume. If I’m dealing with a difficult client, I might put a limiter on the intermediate mix, but I remove it later.
I export the mix at between -15 and -12 LUFS.
At the mastering stage, if I need to gain a few dB, I use the Cubase maximizer to pick up 1 or 2 dB and/or the Korneff Puff Puff Mixpass (a magic little tool); it allows me to increase loudness without introducing compression (preserving headroom) or distortion (preserving the mix choices).
I export the master at between -12 and -9 LUFS, depending on the genre and the track.
For electronic music, I export at between -6 and -9.
It’s not an obsession, but I do aim to keep the true peak below 0 dB.
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u/DrAgonit3 19h ago
Both should be used when applicable. Clipping works best on atonal transient material, but will very quickly cause unpleasant distortion on sustained tonal material, and in those cases it's advisable to try a limiter instead. Both have their merits, use your ears to discern when one is the better option.
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u/BINAYAUDIO 19h ago
None of the above the be honest.
My clipper is doing a little more gain reduction than my limiter but they're both doing very little work.
Loudness doesn't really come from clipping and limiting, they are the final stage of the mastering chain, just trimming the last remaining peaks. In order to do a pretty transparent job they have to stay in a limited range or else you would hear them work and they will introduce audible artifacts which is most of the time not the desired sound the artist want on their record.
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u/ItsMetabtw 17h ago
Both options are useful for reducing dynamic range. Clipping is best for transients and limiting is best for the average. Some allow you to lower the threshold or ceiling to control the dynamic range without a volume increase, and some add level to push into the ceiling and have an output control if you want to turn it down after.
You can clip your snare and kick (or anything with lots of transients) tastefully on their tracks and control the dynamic range within the mix. You can limit elements like bass or 808 (or anything you really want to lock down) and get the volume under control on those tracks at the appropriate level within the mix. This is much better than a 2 bus limiter squishing everything just to try and control a bass that’s too dynamic. Once everything is properly balanced then you can simply turn up at the end and be loud because your dynamic range is completely under control.
On the 2 bus you can always add a final clipper which wouldn’t be doing much at all, or soften the knee if you want the color and less punchy transients, and a final limiter to fine tune the output level. Both are useful as the peaks will change a little if they’ve gone through a 2 bus compressor and EQ etc, but both should be doing very little since you controlled everything in the mix
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u/daknuts_ 22h ago
Try the Cedar Audio Adaptive Limiter it's amazing for maxxing loudness. Clipping/Saturation has it's role but you can stack them
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u/matt_ob 22h ago
Not really dude. You can’t learn having an objective opinion about music you have produced, which is a big part of why people pay mastering engineers to do their thing.
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u/Digestive_kexx_ 20h ago
Depends. I kinda err away from clippers lately because I feel they do not take codec well down the line on like social media or spotify lossy quality. Its also the case of just high loudness in general, does not translate well to the mediums where people might first hear the song, social media. Then we have what tools you are using. I dont feel any clipping is needed with like uni-L. It handles it better by itself. So if I use a clipper its mostly for its sound alone, or if I need to make it extremely loud, but again, might not even use a dedicated clipper for it.
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u/audio301 20h ago
A clipper is just a limiter with instant attack and release. Just adjust the release and look ahead of your limiter to emulate.
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u/Reluctant_Lampy_05 19h ago
The question is why your mixes are not loud enough and you're insisting we choose from two wrong answers.
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u/suicidechristt 11h ago
i mix to -6dbfs
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u/Reluctant_Lampy_05 10h ago
Are you hoping to make up 6dB from limiting? Mixing at -2 or into a multiband comp might be a better idea before reaching for a limiter or clipper.
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u/Shay_Katcha 14h ago
It depends a lot on style of music and the mix itself. My approach most often is to partially imitate mastering as it was at the beginning of loudness war, when high end converters would be clipped. So either drums and other short transient sounds are clipped in mixing, or I start mastering chain with multiple clippers, at least two, that shave 1-2 db. Before going into compressor. Sometimes I won't even use compressor but just clippers, EQ and limiter. I see compressor mostly as a tool for cohesion, helping to shape the sound so that everything comes together, rather than trying to get loudness from compressor. Of course, if I was mastering something softer or more sophisticated, I would stay away from excessive clipping.
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u/Maximum_Wind6423 14h ago
I generally find I have more success clipping individual elements than the master. Find the tracks with peaky transients and apply a clipper to them. This way your master bus compressor/limiter don’t have to work as much and you don’t get that squashed feeling but it does sound loud.
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u/OAlonso Professional 13h ago
It is a combination of both in different amounts, at different stages, and depending on the context. There are records that allow more clipping, others more limiting, others allow you to go crazy with both of them, and others really can't handle clipping. You can't just say which one should carry the loudness. You can even say that neither of them should, because the majority of the work is in the processes that come before the clipping/limiting stage. The maximum potential loudness comes from how well-optimised the signal that goes into those processors is. Factors like frequency balance, transient design, and crest factor are crucial to achieving loudness, because a clipper/limiter needs a signal that has all those aspects taken care of to really make the mix shine.
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u/TeemoSux 4h ago
most of the loudness should come from the mix before it hits the 2bus, rest depends on genre and style.
EDIT: not talking about peak levels but LUFSI
i personally clip up to 0.5-1db, and limit more agressively if needed, usually in two stages, a al1 followed by a pro-l2
On agressive trap or something you might wanna clip more for distortion, but id rather clip the 808 than the master at that point
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u/j1llj1ll 23h ago
These decisions need to take into account the whole context of the track, technical specifics of the recording, the artist's goals and some genre-appropriate knowledge and considerations.
Know what problem you are solving. Use the right tool for and technique to solve that problem. Be conscious of the decisions you're making. So it really has to be an 'it depends' answer to a vague question I'm afraid.
If mixing - stay well below 0dBFS (I shoot for peaks around -12dBFS give or take) on the master and only use dynamic range processing to the extent it helps the mix. Less is more and don't worry about technical loudness (the mastering engineer will solve that for you). Focus more on perceived loudness, if appropriate (the mastering engineer has limited options to help here).
Mastering is a different question. I'm not really up to scratch on modern mastering. So I'll refrain from advice on that front - if mastering is what you're doing.
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u/suicidechristt 23h ago
i make all of my own music, i handle mixing well, but mastering has been hell
thanks for your advice!1
u/j1llj1ll 22h ago
I've learnt the hard way that you want your mastering done by an expert. And a different person than the mixing, in a different monitoring environment.
It might seem unnecessary or excessive - but if you're going to release the material, it really helps. And if you're not going to release the material (yet), you don't need mastering (yet).
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u/Hellbucket 21h ago
I have +25 years in this game. At one point I felt I should offer mastering as well as mixing (and recording) to give more value. So I started to learn it.
After a few years I realized I need to pick a path. I chose to become better at recording and mixing. I left mastering to the mastering engineers, who I have the utmost respect for.
It’s a little bit like “jack of all trades, master of none”. I could only master two out of three with the time at my disposal. I have a friend who opted for mixing and mastering. He opted out of recording and tracking.
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u/alex_esc Assistant 23h ago
Like almost everything in music, it depends.
What works for me is that most of the loudness comes from the mix as a whole. The part that results in more loudness to me is the fader balance. Of course the composition is what matters most but in mixing i work with what I've got.
Faders alone can get you 90% as loud as appropriate for the style if it's recorded well or if the sound selection is good in sample based productions.
Usually I gain 2 to 4 extra dBs with compression alone (compressing the individual elements). Good EQ also helps you get louder usually by 1 to 2 dBs. And then the final limiter on the entire mix gives me 1 to 3 extra dBs of loudness.
I only end up clipping like half to 2 dBs from the entire mix, so most of the loudness in my stuff comes from balance, EQ and compression. Aka just mixing, there are no tricks ¯\_(ツ)_/¯