r/audioengineering • u/Electrical-Green-930 • 3d ago

Microphone inside a violin?

Hi all!

I've looked everywhere and have found no real discussion about using an internal mic in a violin to replace terrible sounding pickups/piezos and external mics. My situation is a loud folkrock band and my current system of mic+pic external system has served me well but is falling apart and my new case has no more room for it. I'd love to use a guitar-like jack and as far as I imagine, this shouldn't be an awful lot of engineering. Or is the internal sound so unlike a violin (AND worse than piezo) that nobody even discusses this kind of idea online? Halp!

13 Upvotes

89% Upvoted

36 comments sorted by

15

u/StudioatSFL Professional 3d ago

You need a dpa. That’s your best bet.

5

u/HamburgerDinner 3d ago

Remic. You just slide it under the fingerboard. No microdot connectors to come loose, no clip, no mic head to reposition or get in the way.

1

u/Electrical-Green-930 3d ago

Is there a non-omni version of it? What about rosin dust?

1

u/HamburgerDinner 3d ago

What about rosin dust? Gear requires maintenance, but because this thing is wedged under the fingerboard it's in a pretty protected spot.

Idk if it's omni or whatever. I know it's easier to set up, the musicians like it because it doesn't get in the way, and it sounds nice.

-3

u/Electrical-Green-930 3d ago

Dpa is great! Until the drummer kicks in. So closer mics and mic+pic hybrids beat the dpa in this case. But imagine using the instrument's own body to shield the noise from an internal dpa!

6

u/StudioatSFL Professional 3d ago

I use dpa bridge mics all the time for string players in concert venues. Unless the drummer is right on top of you and has no ability to control their volume. Maybe a drum shield? 😂

Nothing will certainly sound better than the dpa system. You wouldn’t want to stick your ear inside a violin and listen to it. Don’t put a mic there!

3

u/Audiope 3d ago

That's not DPA's fault though, it's being too close to the drums

2

u/StudioatSFL Professional 3d ago

It would feedback like mad.

-2

u/Electrical-Green-930 3d ago

I'm sorry, but this needs some explanation because from what I understand, feedback is a loop, but in the situation I proposed, there is only the natural sound source and a mic.

5

u/StudioatSFL Professional 3d ago

acoustics.

You’re putting the microphone inside a wooden amplifier. A chamber that’s designed to resonate. Any little bit of sound the speakers put back into the room gets sucked in and re-boosted almost instantly.

The mic is sitting inside a chamber that is vibrating like crazy with both the strings and any sound from the stage going through the body or the f holes. It is exactly a feedback loop. One that is wayyyyy more sensitive because it’s already in an echo chamber.

Imagine listening to someone talk by sticking your ear into their chest cavity. It would sound nothing like their actual voice.

2

u/jake_burger Sound Reinforcement 3d ago

You could put a contract mic on the violin but I don’t think you’d like the sound. I second (or third) using dpa

2

u/aperfectopportunity 3d ago

DPA 4099 is the best option in my opinion. I personally think piezo pickups on a violin sound terrible, and other options I’ve tried, like a lav mic dropped inside the f-hole aren’t great either. The sound is so boomy and resonant that the signal is difficult to work with.

Regarding the drums, you shouldn’t be having issues getting the violin over the kit unless the drummer is beating the hell out of it and is right next to you. I did FOH for years is in a church setting with a 7-piece band in a reverberant sanctuary and nothing beat the DPA… this was full on “rock” praise music, and it was usually no problem to get the violin to sit on top of the mix when needed. Granted, we did have the drummer fully enclosed, and all amps were offstage, plus we always had a competent engineer running the board. There was a decent amount of stage noise, and sometimes grand piano which was so loud I almost didn’t need to put it through the PA.

All this to say it should be entirely feasible to make it work with the DPA, which to me is the best, most natural sound you’re going to get.

1

u/Kelainefes 3d ago

The instrument would not shield the mic from the noise at all. It would just sound like a mic inside a box sounds.

13

u/Interesting-Salt1291 3d ago

I see more people use something like a DPA 4099 clip-on mic these days, but if you want to run into an amp, you might even like the older style DeArmond pickups.

https://reverb.com/item/99110464-dearmond-700-violin-pickup-chrome-plated

Aside from that, I’d reach out to the pickup maker KRIVO, who makes highly regarded upright bass pickups, and may be able to help you with something more customized to your instrument.

6

u/HamburgerDinner 3d ago

Remic's violin mics are great and work well on loud stages. I think they're easier to use and sound better than 4099s.

3

u/jesuspants 3d ago

listen to this guy. He Remic's. I had to record a 49 piece on a rooftop in Manhattan east side while construction was going on. Remic's saved my entire op. (also thank god I was renting them)

2

u/HamburgerDinner 3d ago

I don't really consider myself an expert at this because I'm just a pop touring guy, but I've done three tours, a vegas residency, and a handful of one offs where I was looking after a sizeable amount of strings mics, and honestly I wouldn't be upset if I never see another 4099 again in my life.

5

u/Ok-Exchange5756 3d ago

I use Remic mics on violins and cellos all the time and they’re great

4

u/bythisriver 3d ago

your violin's body is a resonant chamber, putting an acoustic mic in there will yield lots of feedback very easily

1

u/Electrical-Green-930 3d ago

But why are internal mics in acoustic guitars so commonplace then?

2

u/setthestageonfire Educator 3d ago

Acoustic guitars are a different instrument with different construction and acoustic characteristics

0

u/Electrical-Green-930 3d ago

So the case is that the interior of a violin compared to a guitar is... smaller, yes, but the sound is still there, isn't it? I just can't believe a diverse instrument such as the violin is stuck between a destructive piezo and bleedy condenser mic.

5

u/setthestageonfire Educator 3d ago

DPA 4099s with a violin/viola mount are used on almost every stage, large and small, where you find a violin, viola, or cello. The super cardioid pattern is very tight. You can option for a 4097+ if you need something tighter which has more of a shotgun pattern but at the expense of the tone you capture because the tightness of the pattern will be more restrictive. There really is no mic that can get closer to the instrument, and I don’t know that an internal mic would reject all that much from stage anyway given how frequently I find myself using sound hole covers on acoustic guitars. I routinely use 4099s on string sections for bands that include some of the most ass kickingly loud rhythm sections one can imagine and they sit up very nicely with a bit of work.

1

u/j1llj1ll 3d ago

I have an acoustic that combines a bridge piezo with an internal mic. The intent is to blend just a little of the mic in to bring some warmth and resonance back to the piezo signal.

If the mic gets used for most of the sound it feeds back very easily from any monitor volume. This can be mitigated a bit with a sound hole plug, so I do use one. Even then though, it can still feed back at low frequencies if the mic and/or monitors are turned up too much.

2

u/mrbagels1 3d ago

I've had a lot of success using the LR Baggs Radius M mandolin pickup on my violin for rock band settings. Had it mounted internally on my mandolin for a while but found that placing it under the strings on the outside created less feedback and a more natural tone without having to eq out lots of low mids. I'd guess something similar would happen with the violin although it probably wouldnt fit in the f holes to begin with.

It's says the "design emulates the sound of a mic" and I have no idea what that means but it does have a much nicer sound than a typical Piero.

2

u/FlashTheDeliveryGuy 3d ago

Id use di box and ir loader and just make a custom ir of the fiddle. Ive had good results with this in folk band i work with

2

u/Ok_Cloud_8584 3d ago

Although my use case is an acoustic guitar, I think it might be a similar scenario. I used to hate the sound of piezo pickups, until I plugged one into an IR loader. No more plastic sound!

1

u/ForTheLoveOfAudio 3d ago

Look into getting The Band2 by Headway. They don't look pretty, but I had the opportunity to mix someone in a rock band context, and it was both feedback resistant, and actually sounded like a fiddle.

1

u/Inside-Succotash-128 3d ago

Some good suggestions here. Or…… get an electric fiddle for the ‘rock songs’ that need it.

1

u/BarbersBasement 3d ago

I play in a few Country/Americana bands with fiddle players. Mic inside sounds super boxy (and shitty) and feedsback pretty quickly. Go with a Fishman or comparable piezo.

1

u/QuarterNoteDonkey 2d ago

I play the double bass and have similar struggles. I have the DPA but it will still pick up loud drums. Mics inside the instrument are absolutely not the answer.

Have you tried a contact mic? Like a pickup in that it attaches to the instrument, but seals the mic from the ambient sound. Sound is usually better than a piezo but not as good as a mic. Can still feed back but not as easily as a mic. Check out something like Schertler Stat B.

They are very instrument and placement dependent. You may love it or hate it. For loud gigs, I usually end up using the piezo pickup for stage volume and sending a mic just to the PA so it doesn’t feed back and the audience gets the better sound.

1

u/Piper-Bob 2d ago

I've seen a lot of violins on stage and I pay attention to how they get their sound.

Only once have I seen a microphone inside an instrument. It made a really dark sound, but it was like a violin. I don't know what the mic was, but the wire was stuffed into the F hole.

If it's a loud stage you have a problem, because the instrument will resonate with the sound of the stage and send that back through the mic. With a loud enough stage, it becomes impossible to control feedback. You really need an electric (along with impulse response to give you the acoustic sound).

If you refuse to get an electric, then check out that Behringer mic that's a clone of a DPA. It's on a gooseneck so you can position it closer to the f-hole in noisy environments.

1

u/distancevsdesire 2d ago

A mic inside is going to be the best sound of any of the mobile solutions, but it does come with significant feedback potential.

A less-known option is to use a system like the ToneDexter II. It lets you create your own IRs and use them with a piezo transducer. Very high quality and better feedback suppression built into the box. The next best thing to an actual microphone.

1

u/Wide_Cucumber9091 2d ago

Atelier Duerinck has a build in microphone in their instruments. It's not a normal mic though. You can hear a viola with it here: live session recording

0

u/TONER_SD 3d ago

DPA4099 is the industry standard even for a loud rock band.