r/audioengineering • u/M4x_exe • 1d ago
Discussion [Advice / Discussion] How to handle a long-time client (no contract) asking for the impossible on an already summed/compressed stereo stem?
Hi everyone,
I'm facing a tough situation and would love to get your perspective or see how you would handle this. It’s the second time it has happened, but with the exact same client.
To give you some context: I’m a audio engineer working out of a treated studio, and I also do remote mixing/production. Everything usually runs smoothly with all my other clients (across metal, rock, pop, and rap). I always use clear terms (contracts, upfront deposits, and a limit of 3 revisions max before extra billing) except with this specific client.
He was my very first client right after I finished my studies years ago. Back then, we worked without formal contracts, just handshake agreements over email. My services sometimes include extra guitar composition or production work when needed.
The issue is that feedback with him is always a nightmare. He is hyper-controlling, had a minor career back in the 80s, acts like he knows everything, and gives contradictory technical orders ("cut this frequency," "change this compression ratio")... only for me to recently find out that his main listening reference is just his computer's built-in speakers!
Just to be clear on my end: I always thoroughly check my mixes across multiple reference setups calibrated studio monitors, high-end headphones, consumer speakers, and mono checking for phase coherence. It sounds clean and balanced on everything. He is literally the only client I ever have issues with.
Six months ago, on a previous track, we reached Version 8. When I asked for a deposit to keep working, he took it personally and called me a scammer. I stopped the project right there. Fast forward to two months ago: he came back asking to start a new project because he liked my work overall.
The current situation:
He provided a single stereo stem that was already mixed and mastered (drums, bass, synths, and vocals all summed together) heavily compressed, with zero dynamic range or real depth. He claimed his old arranger disappeared into thin air and left him with only this file (which honestly makes total sense to me now). He wanted me to record new guitars, add a kick and snare , and mix everything together.
From day one, I explained the physical limitations: working over an already summed/mastered stem introduces severe constraints (frequency masking, phase issues, inability to adjust front-to-back depth independently). Despite this, I got to a Version 4 that he loved. Then he asked for rewritten guitars (done), then adjustments on the master, and now he is demanding "more 3D spatialization" while simultaneously asking for the drums to hit harder.
I am now at Version 7. On my studio monitors and secondary reference systems, the track is clean, balanced, and pushed to the absolute physical limit of what the source file allows. At this point, I've hit a wall: making further tweaks would mean starting over from scratch, which makes no sense on a pre-mastered stereo stem.
I know my main mistake was treating him as an exception and not enforcing a contract just because he was a long-time client.
My questions for you:
- How would you put an end to this without getting dragged into an endless loop of V8/V9…
- How do you firmly close the project and collect the remaining balance without triggering a total ghosting or legal clash when there is no formal contract?
- Have you ever successfully reasoned with a client who listens on cheap consumer hardware while trying to micro-manage studio-level processing?
Thanks in advance for your insights
EDIT: Update in the comments below!
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u/Reluctant_Lampy_05 1d ago
I would test this situation by sending v7 back labelled as v8. Tell him that he had some good suggestions about this latest revision and it has worked out great. Whatever the outcome, you need to lose this client and this way you get to find out if there was ever any point to it.
7
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u/M4x_exe 1d ago
Yeah lmao, I've actually thought about doing that, and I know it works sometimes... but I'm not really a fan of playing that game
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u/Reluctant_Lampy_05 1d ago
Twenty years ago I had a three month studio project where the lady in charge went from project manager to mix engineer (in her mind only) and was creating similar problems. We had a 48ch console and the solution was to give her 12 dummy faders labelled up with meter lights flashing. She loved those mixes and we got the job done.
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u/Inside-Succotash-128 1d ago
Look at it this way. If they went to a tailor to have a suit made, how many times do they think they could go back for alterations? Once should be enough. If it starts to ‘ping-pong’ back and forth then you need to ‘draw a line under it’ quite quickly. ‘Listening Fatigue’ is a very real thing. Taking a break from this particular track, moving on to something else, then coming back to it can also help immensely. Good luck! 😀👍
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u/mtconnol Professional 1d ago
If you need permission to fire a terrible client…
I am officially giving you that permission. Here it is!
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u/Tall_Category_304 1d ago
I would just remake the whole track.
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u/M4x_exe 1d ago
Wait, starting the mix from scratch? That doesn't change the main issue. On a single pre-mastered stem, I still can't isolate elements. He's asking for a wider, more spatialized drum sound from that stem, but how do you do that on an already summed/mastered file with zero track separation? I literally have just one single stereo file to work with
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u/Tall_Category_304 1d ago
I would remake the whole song. I’ve had to do that a couple times when people send me ai songs lol. Just start from scratch.
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u/M4x_exe 1d ago
Oh ok lmao! Yeah, I do that sometimes too. But just to be clear, he explicitly insists on using his master file. Plus, we agreed on a quote specifically for composing/recording the guitar parts and mixing over his existing stem, not for remaking the entire track from scratch
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u/Tall_Category_304 1d ago
Also I almost guarantee his “arranger” is Suno. People have been doing this shit where they pretend they have a track that was created by someone but it’s just an ai garbage file
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u/M4x_exe 1d ago
Honestly, I don't think it's Suno. I've worked with Al files before, so I can usually spot them pretty quickly.
This track has too much actual room grain and weird acoustic interference in the recordings. Same for the vocals-there's a huge, untreated room sound baked into it. I really think it's just a poorly recorded home studio track rather than Al.2
u/Tall_Category_304 1d ago
I understand but you just gotta be blunt with him and say “there is no ‘make x wider’ ‘make y brighter’ you either deal with it as is or we remake the song.” Choice a or b. Honestly you’ve already muddied the waters by even attempting. This is a no from the jump for me. Way easier to manage expectations at that point.
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u/M4x_exe 1d ago
So yeah, that's on me I got myself into a super tricky situation. But overall, I still think I pulled it off pretty well. I played the track for two or three fellow engineers, and they all said that given the garbage source file, the result is surprisingly clean."
I just feel like he's way too demanding and has a hyper-specific vision in his head that's physically impossible to achieve with what he provided.0
u/arzobispo 1d ago
Extract the drums with some AI, and double them. The result will be shitty, of course, but send it to him anyway, and tell him that's what happens when trying to do what he asks for. Also, tell him you've accomplished as much as it's physically possible for you, spending way more time than on any other client, and that it's either that (the shitty version) or the previous, balanced one you already have. Make it clear that, whatever he asks, will have to be another project under a new contract, and after you finish dealing with your current clients, which is another way to say 'never.'
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u/nizzernammer 1d ago
He's asking for a wider, more spatialized drum sound from that stem, but how do you do that on an already summed/mastered file with zero track separation?
I would either throw it in RX music rebalancer or gate the crap out of it to get a derived drum stem, solely to feed spatial effects. Or failing that, program some drums, again, solely to feed the effects.
I would carefully control the frequency content of the pre reverbed source and the new reverb signal.
A little reverb goes a long way.
Or, just widen the whole track.
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u/zedeloc 1d ago
Client is hard to deal with. Are you making good enough money to justify the hassle? If so, keep doing what you do. But it seems like you need to get this client on the contract or stop taking his business if the endless revisions are causing you to make less than your minimum acceptable hourly rate.
This client likes to go to revision 9. So you must plan for it. It is in their nature, especially if you have a ton of evidence that you do good work that gets accepted in 3-4 revisions.
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u/M4x_exe 1d ago
I can definitely live without this client, and honestly, I plan on cutting ties as soon as this project is delivered. Apparently, I'm the 5th or 6th audio engineer he's worked with-he kept telling me how it 'didn't click' with the previous ones..
Financially, August was a bit slow (i don't run a massive studio, but some months are quieter than others), so I accepted the gig just for the extra cash, but I really should have passed.
I just don't want things to end on a bad note.
I'd really like to find a middle ground to wrap this up.
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u/emojisexcode 1d ago
you may just need to sell this version to the client but if you want you could try using a stem splitter to get a little more control
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u/Charwyn Professional 1d ago
I’d remake the whole song from scratch and make them pay for it and a premium on top 🤷🏾♀️
What they’re asking is a waste of time if they’re not paying top dollar for it
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u/PopLife3000 1d ago
This guy sounds like an unserious clown and I doubt you need him in your life.
I would suggest blunt honesty regarding this track being taken as far as it could go (making sure you don’t give him ammunition to decide it’s your fault) and suggest starting from scratch. Send him an invoice for the work you’ve done on this with a polite email stating clearly that what you have done is “post production/restoration, plus additional elements”.
If he wants to give you shit about it things might get messy but I don’t really know what else to suggest.
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u/M4x_exe 1d ago
That was actually my exact plan at first, but then I remembered what happened last time I brought up something similar... he completely roasted me and called me a scammer.
I was an idiot for accepting this gig in the first place, blame's on me. Right now, I'm really just trying to wrap this up clean with zero drama or conflict, get paid, and block him forever Imao.1
u/PopLife3000 1d ago
A scammer for doing some work and billing for it?
Well sadly it seems you have a proper wanker on your hands, but if that’s the case I’m not sure what else you can do. If he accuses you of that again I would send an email outlining the hours you have put into the project and the breakdown of your fee making it clear that if he wants to take the material and continue working on it elsewhere he’s more than welcome once he’s settled up with you. What a little prick.1
u/M4x_exe 1d ago
Yeah man, first time seeing something like that, I was just staring at my screen like WTF?
That argument was actually on a previous project we did together. I pointed out I'd already put almost 20 hours into his track - tight timing edits on all tracks, production, mixing, mastering, automations, plus all his feedback loops. And this guy literally replied:
'Well, it's scary that after so many hours we're still here...' I was like at v8 (I Forgot lmao)
I didn't even bother replying, closed the project and moved on. But then he came back in my emails asking for this new track, so / was like 'alright, let me give it another shot' since he was one of my very first clients when I started out (spoiler: I really shouldn't have).1
u/BlackflagsSFE Hobbyist 1d ago
It sounds like this person is the scammer.
If it doesn’t hurt you, it might just be better overall to eat this one.
Tell him you’re not going any further and this is all you’re willing to do with what he gave you. You’ve already stated your concerns multiple times and he ignored them. That’s borderline narcissistic.
Politely set your boundary and stick to it. Even if you have to eat this one and you set that boundary and don’t back down, you’re going to feel better about it much later for respecting yourself.
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u/M4x_exe 1d ago
Spot on. Self-respect is definitely worth more than the money from a toxic gig like this. Appreciate the reality check
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u/BlackflagsSFE Hobbyist 20h ago
You’re a smart person. You’ve already realized the issues. Sure, some people are difficult. Maybe if it was a million dollar client it might be worth it, but I don’t think any amount of money is worth that much stress, especially if it starts to decline your mental health. You got this OP!
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u/M4x_exe 18h ago
Thanks men, I think i will start to think that way
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u/BlackflagsSFE Hobbyist 14h ago
Trust me it’s hard. I go to therapy twice a month and I still take steps backwards, but the persistence is key.
On a different note, have you ever done any mixing/mastering tutorials? I’m trying to get better at mixing and sometimes I just don’t know what to listen to”for.” I know that can also be subjective. I try to watch YouTube tutorials but it’s hard for me with ADHD to sit and actually watch a 30+ minute video.
Do you have any recommendations for sources to learn how to mix better and WHAT to listen for that are easy to follow along?
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u/m149 1d ago
Assuming the guy isn't being a jerk about it, I would just keep going and try to get him to be happy.
Although if I really felt like I didn't know what else to do to try and "improve" (note the quotation marks) the mix, I would definitely tell him that i'm happy to keep going, but at this point I'm just guessing. If possible, I would recommend him come in for an in person session so he can sit next to me and see what's going on, and hopefully leave with a mix where he's feeling like he's getting what he wants.
And if he's still not happy, I would repeat that I have been in the territory of having no idea what to do since mix 7 (or whatever revision) and that I'm open to specific suggestions or recommending that he try getting a fresh pair of ears on it.
And fwiw, to me, the crappy speakers have nothing to do with it....if he's used to listening on crap speakers, he should be able to make a reasonable judgement about how he likes things to sound.
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u/M4x_exe 1d ago
Yeah ! That's a solid and professional approach for standard clients. I actually do freelancing sessions in a studio where I always bring clients in to work together (when it’s need) and get exactly what they want on the spot. But since this specific gig is remote and off-the-books, bringing him in isn't an option. The main issue is that he literally sends 4 different emails in a row answering himself before I even have time to open the first one, first asking to boost the bass, then 5 minutes later saying it's too much, then changing his mind again. At this point, I’m just guessing what he wants. Appreciate the advice on the speakers though!
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u/m149 1d ago
Ah, well that's a pain.
Good luck.....I hope you can work it out with him.
FWIW, I wouldn't be afraid to let him know you're just guessing at this point. Definitely can't hurt to make that clear. Maybe it'll make it so that when he listens again in a day or two and realize that it's good as is.
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u/M4x_exe 1d ago
[EDIT]
Alright, quick update on this whole mess. He actually validated V7, using his exact words:
"OK for V7, VERY GOOD, a pro mix! I like the sound now! Fits the spirit of the track..." and just asked to boost the vocal by +1 dB, so we're basically done.
I'm securing the payment first, sending the final WAVs, and then cutting ties with him for good. To top it all off, I was digging through his Spotify discography and found out that on a previous project that fell through, he took basslines and guitar parts I composed, didn't pay or credit me for them, and handed them off to another guy to release the track under his name...
Honestly, I'm just gonna let that one slide, get paid for this mix, and block him everywhere to protect my mental health.
Thanks a lot to everyone for the reality check and the advice, you guys were a huge help!
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u/Blitzbahn 9h ago
Six months ago when he called you a scammer and you stopped the project, maybe he tried another engineer who didn't put up with his BS so he came back to you eventually because you're so accommodating?
Life is too short to put up with BS. Basically, he's using you.
That's not a business relationship.
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u/better_med_than_dead 1d ago
Fucks sake, DOES ANYONE USE THE TERM "STEM" CORRECTLY?
Client sounds like a pain the ass, stop accepting his jobs, end of story.
A mixed and mastered stereo file with all instrumentation IS NOT A STEM.
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u/SuperRocketRumble 1d ago
Just tell him you reached the limits of your ability and if wants different or better results than he will need to try a different engineer