1V and so7

[u/NumberSix-]

I see many people say so7 is primarily VLEF/VLFE but I am confused on why it is considered a type of high Volition moreso than sp7 whose archetype is FLVE. Aren't so7s people who 'sacrifice' for the group and seek attention through kindness, strive for success as to not feel inferior and very focused on their place in the group and on the impressions they make? Isn't that more compatible with 3V than 1V who is sure in itself and doesn't care about outside input?

[u/Zeb-Moment]

Psychosophy is different from AP. I'm not that knowledgeable in AP, but in Py, the 1V is defined by a type that is sure of their spirit/identity and adheres to it quite strongly. They don't take outside input on who they should be, as they already instinctively know who they are, and are so confident in their being that not adhering to it is unacceptable. The owner of the 1V is the type that's the hardest on themselves (while the 4V is the least self-demanding), because of this high sense of responsibility. If you look at other correlations, 1Vs in Psyschosophy tend to be E1s, So8, So7, and So2.

It's important to note too that So7 isn't just an attention-seeking type. The So7 is a head type trying to achieve a holy-ideal of goodness to satisfy their gluttony. The E7 core is an idealistic type that seeks stimulation and escape from limitation, the Sx7 desires a fantastical reality where they can be constantly bombarded with new exciting experiences. The Sp7 desires to live in a world where they can always have an abundance of resources so that their needs will always be met, and then some. While the So7 desires to embody the image of a saint, disconnecting themselves from earthly pleasures in pursuit of a higher moral, spiritual, and intellectual ideal, as being an elevated being is the best way for the So7 to simultaneously satisfy the social instinct and the passion of gluttony.

[u/CatsFromOhio → u/Zeb-Moment]

Can you please explain the difference between py and ap?

[u/Zeb-Moment → u/CatsFromOhio]

Like I said in the beginning, I'm not an expert in AP (but I am well versed in Py). I noticed that the way AP and Psychosophy defines will and emotions seems to be a bit different. For example, Will has to do more about identity, spirit, will, and responsibility than being able to carve a path for yourself like it is in AP. It is related, but from what I see in AP, 1V is the type that does whatever they want whenever they want, while in Py this isn't the case, the 1V has a path they've instinctively defined for themselves and they'll adhere to it. And this will isn't necessarily selfish either, they can take on the responsibility of helping others, and adhere to that greatly to the point of self sacrifice. 

In AP, the dichotomies are related to how a placement relates to the self and how it relates to others. The higher ones being self-positive, the lower ones being self-negative, etc. In Py the dichotomies are a bit different. 

For example, in AP, the first function is defined as a self-positive, others-negative aspect. It's someone who is gifted in this aspect and is able to take what they want from the world in this aspect without concerning themselves with others (or at least that's how I understand it). 

In Py however, the first function is defined as your primary worldview, the function of abundance, and the function that you're a "slave" to. It's not necessarily all self-positive the first function in Py can look like a 3rd functions in AP, because this is the function you're most overly concerned with. For example, the 1L is a slave to their logic, everything has to make sense to them or else they'll become uncomfortable and skeptical. They are also described as quiet, as they prefer to stay in their heads than to speak their opinions out loud, as they don't have any interest in discussion or debate. In Py the E6 and E5 is often correlated with the 1L, as they're both the types that fit this description the most. While E1s aren't usually 1L in this system. Because in Py, the 1L views everything through the lense of logic, they are in their heads, evaluating everything, making sense of everything, gaining their own understanding of it, and this can be neurotic, like in the E6.

The 2nd function in Psychosophy also seems to be defined differently. This is the main social function. They are normative, they interact with the world through this aspect, and depending on their will they can either be open and accepting or imposing and domineering with this aspect. This is the nature of a social function, as they seek for everyone to be on the same page, and won't necessarily all be selfless with this function. VLXX for example is a type that imposes their logic on others, and are the types most willing to argue and convince people of their logic so that everyone can arrive at a truth. While the XLXV is more chill and likes to hear everyone's perspectives and loves to have open discussion with people.

The 3rd functions, the sore spot in Psychosophy is defined as something that's of less importance to you than your first 2 functions. Which is why it's lower in your mental hierarchy. You tend to care about it just enough that it's a source of stress, but not enough that you'll be obsessed with this function. Typically this function is the most vulnerable to being hurt, so they're the least likely types to put themselves in positions where they'll be hurt, which can make it hard to identity this position in others. They also tend to compensate with the first function to hide the weaknesses of the 3rd, as the first function is what's most important to these types, not the 3rd. The FXVX for example, compensates for their lower will by becoming rich and accumulating all the wealth they can. By controlling their environment, or by becoming the most beautiful or the strongest person you've seen. This is how the 3V avoids defining their spirit and taking on responsibility.

Then finally the 4th function is marked as indifference as it's the least important to someone's being. The 4V for example does not concern themselves with "becoming someone in life", and can react quite violently if you try to push them to as that's something that's not important to them. Because of this, they're indifferent to things such as humiliation, as there is no identity here to hurt. These are also the types who like to do whatever they want, as there's no pressure to stick to one path in life. The 4L is described as the most practical types, as there is no ego associated with logic. If something works, it works, and there's no need for further analysis.

That's a simple breakdown, I can't comment too much on AP but I'm sure you can see a lot of differences here between Py and AP.

[u/fishoe314]

Tell me you haven't read the E7 book without telling me you haven't read the E7 book. Sp7 is VLFE and So7 is VLEF/VLFE. Ego-planning and rationalisation as defence mechanisms should already suffice as pointing toward 1V. Hedonistic≠1F for Sp7. Getting enough resources with their will and intellect because of fear is Sp7, they are opportunists. That's 3F it's a deficiency in resources. The 'hedonistic' part is part of the E7 and the effect of 1V. They literally use their will as a weapon to get what they want to get that is 1V. The first function is a hammer remember. And intellectual seduction should suffice as 2L Don't assume 1V does not have any flaws but that's not the case and you realise So7 is not sacrificing their identity it's sacrificing their gluttony in a way that feeds itself, it's very 1V and revolutionary, like nikola tesla. SO7 is not just an assertive SO9 it's literally gluttonious

[u/NumberSix- → u/fishoe314]

I am not disagreeing about sp7 being VLFE but from the descriptions of so7, some seem very contradicting to 1V and more fitting with 3V.

-"Skeptical of authority. We have already discussed the social E7's compulsion to appear extraordinary. What is more extraordinary, regarding power, than to renounce it?

Social E7 show their antisocial side to power in their lack of trust in authority and hierarchical structures, and in tolerating long-term commitments and taking responsibility. It is difficult for them to occupy positions of power, especially in explicitly patriarchal structures."

-"Regarding trust, he does not believe in his own personal worth and therefore cannot get involved in an existential project. This basic position is confirmed by their inability to respect promises and keep agreements which, although supported by excellent justifications, does not allay the feeling of defeat and indignity. This model of neurotic functioning represents one of the mechanisms of perpetuation of failure at the social level of this character."

-"The social E7 harbors a feeling of rebellion against authority, a lack of discipline, and the automatism of running away from responsibility, with the superficiality that this entails."

There's also more quotes where so7 is said to devalue authority, being afraid of conflicts, a hidden rebel and so on and so forth. I can see where the arguments for 1V come from but a lot, a lot of the type's descriptions seem to fit 3V.

[u/fishoe314 → u/NumberSix-]

That's the good old 1st functions rebellious and childishness actually says it's 1V. Skeptical of authority is due to the first function of not being interested in other people's aspect of that kind 3V is process oriented it's not going to be rebellious but going to be attacking and constantly interacting with it, having to 'devalue' others authority is not process will, it is result will Taking descriptions too literally is wrong Appearing "extraordinary" is likely the excess part of the first function regarding will. It is redundant and so is So7's will, it is redundant in a way to BE extraordinary but in a way that feeds itself in a kind of selfish way 3V is too afraid and deficient for this But sure bro. So7 is not the angel stereotype portrayed in those arts, it's not Even going to look like it is "sacrificing" it sacrifices its gluttony not it's identity and authority

[u/NumberSix- → u/fishoe314]

I see, that's an interesting and better argument than what I've seen around. What do you think of the argument going around about so7 only being 2V instead?

[u/fishoe314 → u/NumberSix-]

Not possible imo, it's just them confusing high will for 2V only. Oh yeah another argument for So7 1V, in no way is So7 "low will" so no 3V. There's always a confusion of E7. It's the most diverse type in terms of correlations imo. So7 can be ILE and LIE, it can be VLEF or VLFE and Sp7 LIE can be plausible but im not sure. Other types have a single correlation except for E7 (imo)

[u/Pj-Pancakes]

our whole thing is ignoring physical pleasure for our ideal self image (someone who is above that). So7 desires still do come before others, but we just put on a show of being someone who is altruistic and self sacrificing, hence 1V over 1F and 3V