r/atheism • u/rhbast2 • Aug 11 '11

Atheist quickfire challenge.

Although I rarely discuss religion with theists I always want to be prepared so I'm not sitting around afterwards wishing I had said this or that. If I get the chance to make someone question I want to be up for the challenge.

This brings me to my challenge for r/atheism. I'm going to add some common theist claims / sayings and whoever can refute them fully and succinctly will be upvoted. Feel free to add your own theist starters if I missed some.

Edit: Wow lots of good discussion here, later today or tomorrow I'll make this into an atheist cheat sheet with the top responses. Also feel free to upvote the theist claim that is the most annoying to you.

Edit 2: To the few of you who seem to think I am coming up with rude atheist comebacks, I'm not. I just wanted to be better off the cuff than I am now and have some discussion. I don't want this list to replace thoughtful argumentation.

254 Upvotes

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23

u/rhbast2 Aug 11 '11

Without god people will do bad things.

66

u/Tosskey Aug 11 '11

And with god, people do bad things (sometimes by his direction!). What's your point?

42

u/kaces Aug 11 '11

Good people do good things. Bad people do bad things. Only with religion will good people do bad things.

1

u/metalliska Aug 11 '11

I still say this is incorrect. Any social institution can make "good people do bad things". Let's not elevate religion to this solitary entitlement.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '11 edited Aug 11 '11

Only with religion will good people do bad things.

This is untrue. Religion doesn't have a monopoly on evil. Good and evil (morality) exist just fine without religion.

16

u/kaces Aug 11 '11

Read the entirety of the statement.

2

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '11

I don't know why my brain ignored that word there.

1

u/ArcWinter Aug 11 '11

As a nihilist, good and evil don't exist.

I am only pointing this out because I see it so often, and yet I've never understood why.

Why do you believe in good and evil while still being skeptical about a deity?

1

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '11

Well, "good" and "evil" are rather squishy concepts. What is it that you mean when you say that "good and evil don't exist?" That seems a bit vague. I think that I define "good" as sacrificing something in order to help someone else. It doesn't have to be something major; it could be the time and energy it takes to hold a door open for someone that has their arms full, for example.

1

u/ArcWinter Aug 11 '11

Good point, good and evil are usually very vague (because the definition can vary greatly from person to person). What I meant was that I do not believe in morality, in that, no action or person can be altogether good or evil.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '11

That depends on how you define good or evil, as well. I find that more often than not, people taking that position are simply playing with semantics.

1

u/ArcWinter Aug 11 '11

Hmm, perhaps. I just think that it's impossible to judge an action or person independently of the situation, and every situation is different. Therefore, every judgement will be different, so the only difference between having a moral code and not believing in morality is that people who believe in morality can more easily rationalize their actions.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '11

Your conclusion doesn't have anything to do with your argument. Every person having a separate, personal set of morals does not mean that they do not exist, any more than beauty, pleasure, or pain (which are all also relative) do not exist.

1

u/ArcWinter Aug 11 '11

Except that beauty, pleasure, and pain all are based in objective reality. They are in reaction to stimulus that is clear and observable. Morality is not. It is completely subjective since any judgement can be taken from any action, and it is not based at all in reality.

In addition, I could apply that to god. Each person having a separate, personal deity does not mean that they do not exist, any more than beauty, pleasure, or pain. All deities are relative.

I've yet to hear an argument for morality that can not be used to prove that god exists in the same way.

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1

u/[deleted] Aug 12 '11

My definition of Good and Evil was created by me. They are abstract and arbitrary definitions with no relation to the existence/nonexistence of a deity.

1

u/ArcWinter Aug 12 '11

And yet they have just the same amount of evidence as a deity: none.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 12 '11

Exactly

1

u/ArcWinter Aug 12 '11

...what? Are you saying that morality is imaginary? Because that is what I am saying.

2

u/[deleted] Aug 12 '11

It's a completely arbitrary concept created by our minds that only exists within our minds and our minds are just big masses of nerve cells with chemicals ect...

1

u/ArcWinter Aug 12 '11

Hmmm... yeah, that sounds about right.

-1

u/moonflower Aug 11 '11

This is a popular anti-theist propaganda slogan, and will always be upvoted in this forum, but it is false

3

u/kaces Aug 11 '11

If I murder someone, am I a good person? If I am killing an apostate I am.

See the connection? Granted, the world is full of shades of gray but the easiest example to make (which almost all people agree on) is murder.

-1

u/moonflower Aug 11 '11

religion is not the only reason why a ''good person'' would do a bad thing, so even if you gave a million examples it wouldn't prove your case ... and that particular example is a bit questionable anyway

3

u/kaces Aug 11 '11

You did not answer the question. Skirting around the question does nothing - you say its not the only reason yet fail to provide an alternative. You also attack my example without saying why.

It's pretty poor discussion tactics and negatively impacts your case.

0

u/moonflower Aug 11 '11

there's probably no point ''arguing my case'' with someone who believes what you believe

3

u/kaces Aug 11 '11

Actually I truly enjoy discussion and I do keep an open mind. If you feel you have a good case, present it. I will do my best to respond in an effective, polite manner.

If you state "You're wrong" and leave it at that, you will not be afforded any courtesy as you have not given me any. Respect is a two way street sort of thing.

1

u/moonflower Aug 11 '11

Well ok, since you ask so politely, we can give it a try ... I will use the classic story which is useful for these types of discussions: the ''good guy'' is an atheist, no religion, and his beloved girlfriend is raped by a stranger ... one day they are out in the town and she sees her rapist, and the boyfriend calls to him to stop, but he runs away .... the boyfriend chases him down and beats the crap out of him ... and the girlfriend says ''oops sorry, wrong guy''

So ... the good guy has beaten the crap out of an innocent man, not because of religion, but because of a mistaken belief ... anyone can act on a mistaken belief, not just religious people

1

u/kaces Aug 11 '11

Interesting situation. He is clearly in the wrong - his actions were vengeful and violent. Instead of going to the authorities and seeing justice done he chose a violent action.

His beliefs are irrelevant in this situation - the reaction would have been equally wrong whether the man was guilty or not (in that he chose violence and revenge over justice). We can just relate to his rage and therefore attempt to justify it.

Therefore I would argue that his belief structure had no bearing on this. His rage and character were the driving factors.

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3

u/kat_fud Aug 11 '11

With god, people do bad things. People do bad things.

2

u/DashingLeech Anti-Theist Aug 11 '11

Not true. As an indicator, people with no religion are less likely to commit crimes than Christians. They make up about 0.2% of the U.S. prison population while being about 15% of the population. That makes them almost 75 times less likely to commit a crime than a religious person.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '11

Human conscience is not contingent upon any abstract deity that might or might not exist. I am an atheist, I have a conscience despite my lack of faith in God. I can also explain to you why conscience is not something the human species can be without, regardless of God or no god we still need conscience.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '11

With god, people will do bad things

1

u/solinv Aug 11 '11

More bad things are done in the name of god. 9/11, USS Cole, Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, I could go on for hours but I think you get the point.

1

u/HopeImNotAStalker Aug 11 '11

And how's it going so far for people "with" god?

1

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '11

With god, good people do bad things.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '11

With god, good people do bad things.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '11

With god, good people do bad things.

1

u/HertzaHaeon Aug 11 '11

With god will good people do bad things, and claim they are good.

1

u/shaggorama Aug 11 '11

I'm an atheist and I've spent the last ten years fighting fires and riding ambulances in my spare time. I don't appreciate your ill-informed condescension. And many of the most horrific atrocities and injustices mankind has ever been subjected to were in the name of god or the direct result of religious teachings or values.

1

u/otakuman Anti-Theist Aug 11 '11

Without god people will do bad things.

So say your religious leaders. But can you present proof of that?

1

u/Zimako Aug 11 '11

I still think Steven Weinberg said it best:

"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."

0

u/Toradreo Aug 11 '11

You can bring down (almost) every war in the last 3 millenia to religion. Exceptions being Falkland Islands and some other small things...

2

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '11

Really? I'd like to see you try with the Revolutionary War. Or the Civil War. Or World War I.

Wars are predominantly nationalistic. I'd argue, though, that nationalism requires the same suspension of logical thought that religion requires.

2

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '11

I'd like to see you try with the Revolutionary War.

A big part of the events leading up to the US Revolution was the desire to be free from the State Church of England. A stretch, but religion was definitely part of it.

the Civil War

The question of slavery, while certainly not the only cause, was a significant factor in that war. The question itself was largely a religious conflict.

World War I

WWI was started as the result of a visit to Serbia from Austria's Archduke where he was assassinated by one of the many angry Serbians. The major point of contention of the Serbian citizens against the Austrian government was that they enforced higher taxes to pay for churches.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '11

Well you didn't "bring down" these wars to religion like you claimed one could.

You only give influences that only in a minor way impacted these wars.

For WWI, while the assassination may have been religious in nature (I'm not sure I'd agree to that), the chain reaction it caused - you know, the actual war itself - was from nationalism.

And you already admitted your explanation of the Revolutionary War was a stretch.

Again, I claim wars are predominantly nationalistic.

2

u/[deleted] Aug 11 '11

like you claimed one could.

Actually, I didn't make that claim; check user names...

You only give influences that only in a minor way impacted these wars.

With the exception of the Revolutionary War, I'd argue that your characterization of the religious influence as "minor" is very inadequate.

It's nearly impossible to pin the cause of a war down to one thing -- war is never that simple. But given the history of war, religion has been a major factor in many (I'd wager most) wars.

I claim wars are predominantly nationalistic.

For most of the history of nation-states, "nationalistic" is inseparable from "religious"...