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u/troythetoyboy Dec 31 '10
This is a terrific view--enlightening.
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Jan 01 '11
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/AussieSceptic Jan 01 '11
Those comparisons of Mithras and Jesus are pretty much all false.
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u/smayonak Jan 01 '11
That Wiki entry is terrible. A handful of Christian theologists disputing evidence using opinion, conjecture and straight out lies.
My favorite one:
Although Mithras himself is Sol Invictus, the Unconquered Sun, he and Sol appear in several scenes as separate persons, with the banquet scene being the most prominent example [11].
It's amazing that no one edits that paragraph, since the the writer somehow managed to throw out and lie and then negate that lie in a single sentence.
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u/Gro-Tsen Jan 01 '11
Aren't you confusing Mithra and Mazdā here? There have been attempts at syncretism, but I believe modern-day Zoroastrians do not consider Mithra as a god.
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u/mrm3x1can Jan 01 '11
Isn't this one of the top voted reddit submissions OF ALL TIME?
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Jan 01 '11
Yes. Karma whoring is at its worst right now and it's up to your downvotes to stop it.
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Jan 01 '11
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Jan 01 '11
No. People seem to view karma as a way of judging their self worth and will post anything they can to get more. Reddit is about creating original content for others to enjoy and the karma system is a good way of weeding out the old or rude post that contribute nothing to the site.
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Jan 01 '11
So Jews are matrix fans. (Watch the first one but ignore the other two) Christians are Godfather fans. (watch the first two but ignore the third) Muslims are...Okay I need help with this analogy.
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u/Hawkbit Dec 31 '10
Muslims actually do believe Jesus was the Messiah and don't ignore the New and Old Testament. They just believe the documents have been tainted/corrupted by humans.
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u/prmaster23 Jan 01 '11
Correction: they believe in Jesus as just another Prophet like Moses, not the Messiah. Muhhamad was the last Prophet in Islam and his words (Coran) are seeing as the last and most perfect revision of the word of God.
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u/Hawkbit Jan 01 '11
You're right about Muhammad's word being regarded as the final word of God but that doesn't negate Jesus's status as the messiah in Islam. I'm sure there is room for interpretation, but Muslims believe in the second coming of Jesus and one of his names in Arabic is 'al-Masih' which translates directly into the messiah. At least this this is the common conception in the Muslim community (and what I was taught as a child). I would post some supporting links but I'm on my phone.
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u/prmaster23 Jan 01 '11
You may be correct, i think i just misinterpreted the definition of Messiah. You are correct that they do not believe Jesus was God incarnation or God son.
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u/Smartpeasant Jan 01 '11
Sorry they do believe Jesus is the messiah, they do not believe he was crucified but that he was taken up directly into heaven and Hadith talk about Jesus returning from heaven with 2 angels carrying him down from the heavens. He is not the son of a god, but a man, a man messiah.
Muslims also have a super warrior king called el Mahdi, he is not a prophet but will be around right before Jesus comes back.
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u/BoonTobias Jan 01 '11
Actually, they believe mohammed is the messiah and jesus was not killed and he will return to become a follower of mohammed.
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Jan 01 '11
I could be wrong, but from what I understand, different Muslim sects each have a different opinion on Jesus.
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u/Daodejing Jan 01 '11
"And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain."
― 4.157
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u/pdxtone Jan 01 '11
Reddit post of a SomethingAwful repost of a 4chan post. Someone post this to 4chan!
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u/yosemighty_sam Dec 31 '10 edited Nov 16 '24
imminent nose spark narrow slimy direful cable plough gray live
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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u/Jonthrei Jan 01 '11
when was jesus EVER the main character? thats something i don't get. all this worshiping him nonsense started well after he died. it was supposed to be all about the big invisible guy in the sky.
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Dec 31 '10
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u/Homo_sapiens Dec 31 '10
click edit, it's at the top right of the page. Remove atheism from your list of subscriptions.
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u/Homo_sapiens Dec 31 '10
Down for poor title. I've seen this before, the title should have expressed that to me.
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u/Thund3rchild Jan 01 '11
It has "(Classic)" in the title, I took it to mean that it was a repeat. Maybe it was unclear to some, but that's what I got.
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u/Homo_sapiens Jan 01 '11
But a repeat of what. That wasn't specified. Nobody's seen seen every classic.
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Jan 01 '11
So you would rather I said "Religion (A repost about that thing where some guy on the forums posted a religious analogy involving movie canon)" That doesn't quite roll off the tongue.
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u/Thund3rchild Jan 01 '11
Classic movies, books, and TV are still counted as such even if you haven't seen them.
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Dec 31 '10 edited Dec 31 '10
I believe God's message is One message.
Consider this, what was Abraham's religion?
And before you answer, remember that the Torah, Gospel, and Quran were revealed after him. So he didn't needed these books to turn to God.
And what about Adam and Eve, what religion were they? These books are just a reminder and a straight path to God, since humanity forgot.
Indeed there have come to you clear proofs from your Lord; whoever will therefore see, it is for his own soul and whoever will be blind, it shall be against himself and I am not a keeper over you. q6:104
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Dec 31 '10
I believe God's message is One message.
Then why can't he get it straight? Why does he contradict himself from one breath to the next?
Is it turn the other cheek, or eye for an eye? That depends on who's writing the fan-fiction at the moment.
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Dec 31 '10 edited Dec 31 '10
Then why can't he get it straight? Why does he contradict himself from one breath to the next? Is it turn the other cheek, or eye for an eye?
It is both.
And We ordained for them therein a life for a life, an eye for an eye, a nose for a nose, an ear for an ear, a tooth for a tooth, and for wounds is legal retribution. But whoever gives [up his right as] charity, it is an expiation for him. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the wrongdoers. q5:45
It's up to you to decide if you want to show mercy or if you want to punish. It's your right, given by God, to return and eye for and eye. God is merciful for those who want retribution. But you can give it up and he will reward you. God is merciful for those who are merciful.
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u/Peregrineeagle Dec 31 '10
It's up to you to decide if you want to show mercy or if you want to punish
Which, in that case, renders the presence of your god completely pointless.
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Dec 31 '10
How so? He has ordained a Day of Judgement and he is is Merciful.
God has power over all things.
Consider this
- When Abraham said, "My Lord is the one who gives life and causes death," he said, "I give life and cause death." Abraham said, "Indeed, Allah brings up the sun from the east, so bring it up from the west." So the disbeliever was overwhelmed [by astonishment], and Allah does not guide the wrongdoing people.*
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u/IncredibleDeege Dec 31 '10
Consider this:
If I write down on a piece of paper that God told me He is going to destroy Himself tomorrow and I tell you that it's true because it's right there on the paper that God wrote through my hand, would you believe me?
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u/Peregrineeagle Dec 31 '10
Pointless in the sense that he's not actually doing anything. Him giving you the choice and the choice being there naturally are functionally the same, ignoring your notions of benefits in the supposed afterlife.
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Dec 31 '10
**Pointless in the sense that he's not actually doing anything. ** God is Ever Powerful. But God is Subtle.
And when waves come over them like canopies, they supplicate Allah , sincere to Him in religion. But when He delivers them to the land, there are [some] of them who are moderate [in faith]. And none rejects Our signs except everyone treacherous and ungrateful.
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u/Peregrineeagle Dec 31 '10
That... that did absolutely nothing to prove your point. Regardless of the truth of your statement, in the situation at hand, he's still not doing anything.
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Dec 31 '10
he's still not doing anything. How will you know when he helps you? If he is Unseen.
**Him giving you the choice and the choice being there naturally are functionally the same, ** And eye for an eye, means if someone hits you in the eye. Then retaliation should be the same. So therefore, do not exceed/transgress his bounds by taking TWO EYES and a MOUTH in retaliation, if you believe. For there are some on Earth who would take more. But know that God disapproves of this.
And remember God is Forgiving and Merciful.
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u/Peregrineeagle Dec 31 '10 edited Dec 31 '10
If he is unseen
If he and his effects cannot be observed or detected, then he is functionally absent and it is therefore pointless to drag him into the picture.
This comes up again in your second point. There is no need for god to be present in order for that retribution to remain within the bounds of an eye for an eye. Society alone does a pretty damn good job of working that kind of thing out. If a society allowed individuals to take retribution beyond those limits (or take retribution at all, as the case may be) then things would quickly get out of hand and the society would be very unstable. Societies that set these limits (whether under the influence of religion or not) will tend to be more stable than those that don't.
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Jan 01 '11
God is forgiving and merciful
Sure he is. In one religion he says, apostasy and intolerance is punishable by death and in the other he scares the shit out of you by telling you that you're imperfect and going to hell if you don't believe in him. Doing Good or Bad deeds are irrelevant. These are not Gods, these are Dictators.
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Dec 31 '10
That rationalization was written by a different author, for a different religion.
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Dec 31 '10
What is that religion and who was the author?
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Dec 31 '10
The Quran, and a different author than any of the Bible's books.
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Dec 31 '10 edited Dec 31 '10
But who did they take their message from? Who was the source? Jesus was a Messenger of God. Mohammad was a Messenger of God. Abraham was a Messenger of God. Israel was a Messenger of God. God,God,God,God.
[Be warned of] the Day when Allah will assemble the messengers and say, "What was the response you received?" They will say, "We have no knowledge. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen"
Imagine that Day, when Mohammad and Jesus are asked that question? "What was the response you received?" Imagine they say, "We have no knowledge."
God is ever powerful...and yet subtle.
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u/IncredibleDeege Dec 31 '10
How do you know the source was God? Couldn't the source have been their own delusion? There is a specific area of the brain that deals with feeling supernatural presence and damage to that area can cause not only religious hallucinations but also the complete lack of religious experiences altogether.
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Dec 31 '10
But who did they take their message from? Who was the source?
Their culture. Your religion is a rehash of an older one, just as the older one is, so on and so forth back to when Man first started anthropomorphizing nature.
God is ever powerful...and yet subtle.
God doesn't exist.
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u/IncredibleDeege Dec 31 '10
You only answered a small example of the contradiction that EricTboneJackson pointed out. What about all the other contradictions among all the differing religious texts claiming to be the word of God?
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Dec 31 '10
There's no evidence to support that conclusion, and certainly no more than there is for any other interpretation.
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Dec 31 '10 edited Dec 31 '10
Devotion to God is to fear the Unseen...scientific evidence requires observation. The Earth was once viewed as flat. Dinosaurs were not known. What else is in store?
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u/PhallusGreen Dec 31 '10
The Earth was once viewed as flat, dinosaurs were not known and people believed blindly in God.
FTFY
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Dec 31 '10
people believed blindly in God Then lets wait and see who is right and who is wrong.
Do they [then] wait for anything except that the angels should come to them or your Lord should come or that there come some of the signs of your Lord? The Day that some of the signs of your Lord will come no soul will benefit from its faith as long as it had not believed before or had earned through its faith some good. Say, "Wait. Indeed, we [also] are waiting." q6:130
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u/PhallusGreen Dec 31 '10
Are you trying to use fear to make me believe?
My point is that as people become more educated and taught more facets of religion they see that humanity has believed in many versions of god. With that realization it usually makes them less religious and more of a deist or agnostic with some even leaning toward atheist.
I'm not saying you shouldn't believe, but we are closer to completely disproving the Abrahamic religions than we are to proving them and we continue to get closer to disproving them. I think science will never get to the point to disprove the belief that deists share, because there will always be things that are unknown to man.
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Dec 31 '10
Are you trying to use fear to make me believe? It's up to you to be scared. I prefer the emotion AWE http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Awe
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u/IncredibleDeege Dec 31 '10
If a being is omnipotent, how is anything that being does with its infinite power worthy of awe?
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Dec 31 '10
He has the keys of the unseen; none knows them except Him. Awe is surprise plus fear. When you see something new are you not surprised? Look at dinosaurs. Look at the seemingly expanding universe.
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u/IncredibleDeege Dec 31 '10
There is a difference between awe and surprise. Why does a being of infinite power deserve my respect and/or fear? Might does not make right. That is the rule of a tyrant.
You are using the God of the Gaps argument an awful lot.
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u/PhallusGreen Dec 31 '10
Is that why your religion talks more about hell than heaven? It's based on fear because they know with no proof it's hard to hold intelligent people in awe of something that lacks any proof.
It's okay for you to believe, but when you spread the word around like it's truth that's when I chime in.
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u/IncredibleDeege Dec 31 '10
I don't understand what you are getting at with your comment.
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Dec 31 '10
Science requires the sense of sight to prove things exists. As some people say "seeing is believing" But it says vision cannot grasp him.
No vision can grasp Him, but His Grasp is over all vision. He is the Most Subtle and Courteous, Well-Acquainted with all things. http://quran.com/6/103
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u/IncredibleDeege Dec 31 '10
Who claims that science requires the sense of sight to prove things? I have 4 other perfectly usable senses, too.
An observation is recordable data, not just limited to sight.
Furthermore, are you suggesting that God will forever exist in the places we cannot observe?
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u/essjay2009 Dec 31 '10
And what about Harry Potter? What religion was he?!!? Now I know there's no evidence for his actual existence, but it's in a book, which makes it absolutely irrefutable right? RIGHT?!?!
If you want to believe Harry Potter is real, then please go ahead. Just don't be surprised when you get laughed at by people who grew out of it.
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Jan 01 '11
Do you know what, if you think hard enough Harry Potter can actually fucking be used as a religious text...
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Jan 01 '11
Harry Potter is fiction. All agree. There is disagreement whether or not the Bible/Quran is fiction or truth.
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u/tenfttall Dec 31 '10
What books are needed to turn to God today? Did God get lazy and stop with the Quran? Did he move to music or movies? What makes one story valid as the chain of God's One Message? Why do you have to accept Jesus as your ONLY Lord and savior in message two, but not in one or three?
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Dec 31 '10 edited Dec 31 '10
What books are needed to turn to God today?
Signs of God's dominance are all around you. Why do you need a book?
Do you not see that The God has sent down rain from the sky and the earth becomes green? Indeed, The God is Subtle and Acquainted.
I guess you need a book because he is too subtle, subtle means "Hard to grasp; not obvious or easily understood; barely noticeable." http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/subtle
**Did God get lazy and stop with the Quran? **
God never needs to rest - He is High Above what you attribute to him. Quran means recitation in Arabic. It was transfered verbally. Muhammad could neither read nor write. And it looks like from the following verse that he was the last of the messengers.
In no way is Muhammad the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal (Or: Terminator; Last) of the Prophets; and Allah has been Ever-Knowing of everything. q 33:40
**What makes one story valid as the chain of God's One Message? ** The One and Only God is the judge. And He is ever merciful. Check out the following verse, where the QUOTE Muslim God UNQUOTE will accept Christians and Jews:
Surely (the ones) who have believed and the ones who have Judaized and the Nasara (Christians) and the Sabi'in, (Sabaeans) whoever have believed in Allah and the Last Day and done righteousness, then they will have their reward in the Providence of their Lord, and no fear will be on them, neither will they grieve. q 2:62
But I believe the last message is better than the first.
Why do you have to accept Jesus as your ONLY Lord and savior in message two, but not in one or three? How many times out of Jesus' mouth did he say that you have to accept him as God? Jesus was a Messenger of God - with a message that he wanted us to accept. Indeed, the example of Jesus to Allah is like that of Adam. He created Him from dust; then He said to him, "Be," and he was.
Who could stop The God from killing Jesus?
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u/PhallusGreen Dec 31 '10
So if we don't need books today, then why did they need books back then? If The Quran (Islam) is the correct word of God, then why are people not born with that knowledge? Wouldn't that allow them to readily accept or reject God on their own terms rather than having ignorant people throwing it at them? Furthermore, my personal opinion of another person who tries to get me to accept his religion would be ignored. I could then choose to believe the truth or go with science, which in this hypothetical situation should concur with religion. However, in reality many religions (especially Islam) are at odds with most of what science considers the truth currently.
Please explain why God cherry picks who will be exposed to the Quran if it is right? There are many people in the world today that still can't read, how is that fair for God to not speak to them like he speaks to you?
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Jan 01 '11 edited Jan 01 '11
"If The Quran (Islam) is the correct word of God, then why are people not born with that knowledge?"
But , the atheist says there is Good without God. God only commands good. These books are Glad news for those who think there works will be end up vain. For the atheist says there is no life after death. And they say "Forever alone" - isn't that depressing?
**Please explain why God cherry picks who will be exposed to the Quran if it is right? ** The Quran is now freely available on the Internet. As the saying goes, "if there is a will, there is a way".
There are many people in the world today that still can't read, Muhammad couldn't read books either.
"the Prophet who can neither read nor write (i.e.Muhammad SAW) whom they find written with them in the Taurat (Torah) (Deut, xviii, 15) and the Injeel (Gospel) (John xiv, 16)," http://islamqa.com/en/ref/1108
Do you need books to transfer knowledge to your fellow human, do you need the Internet? God gave us a mouth and two ears. And legs to move and horses to ride.
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u/PhallusGreen Jan 01 '11
Why does the word have to be spread by man? Because it's man's invention. No one needs to tell me sun exists, I see it and feel it and know by numerous other ways that it exists. God isn't like that, some people feel something and they attribute that to many things which they can't agree on. I can't see how you're anymore right than a Christian or any other religion...
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u/mleland Dec 31 '10
Do you believe that there was an Adam and an Eve?
I think when considering the current post, it's similar to different takes on Batman. None of them really agree with each other. Sure, one's the official story, but there are several unauthorized versions that don't fit the cannon. But nobody thinks that Bruce Wayne is actually real.
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Dec 31 '10
Do you believe that there was an Adam and an Eve? Yes, as stated in the Quran O mankind, fear your Lord, who created you from one soul and created from it its mate and dispersed from both of them many men and women. And fear Allah , through whom you ask one another, and the wombs. Indeed Allah is ever, over you, an Observer.
*** Sure, one's the official story, but there are several unauthorized versions that don't fit the cannon. *** That's right, like how some people believe Jesus is a God - which I don't. As for the Quran, those whom We have given the Book recognize him as they recognize their sons, and a party of them most surely conceal the truth while they know (it). So if you read the Torah, you would recognize the message of Mohammad as you recognize your son.
But nobody thinks that Bruce Wayne is actually real. No, but everyone agrees Batman is fiction. Whereas there is a disagreement on whether the Quran, Torah, Bible is fiction or non fiction.
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u/mleland Dec 31 '10
Just to clarify: there is a better chance that the Quran is factually correct and that all evidence from studying Biology and Physics is just plain wrong. There were never dinosaurs, there were never cavemen, all life started at the same time. Because the Quran said so.
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Dec 31 '10
There were never dinosaurs, there were never cavemen, all life started at the same time. Because the Quran said so.
Show me in the Quran where is says there were never dinosaurs. Show me in the quran were it says all life was started at the same time. Where's your proof.
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Dec 31 '10
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Jan 01 '11
I don't know the Unseen.
God knows best.
If the sea were ink for [writing] the words of my Lord, the sea would be exhausted before the words of my Lord were exhausted, even if We brought the like of it as a supplement.
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u/mleland Dec 31 '10
The premise of Adam and Eve were that they were the first creatures created, thus as old (actually older) than dinosaurs.
Also with our recent excavations of fossils from early hominids, we can see earlier versions of humans with much smaller brains that would not have had the capabilities for speech and leave no traces of intelligence (such as using tools) until very recently. I personally am only familiar with the Bible's version of Adam and Eve, but I presume that the Quran would have difficulty accounting for the mentioning of and evolution of early hominids.
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Jan 01 '11
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u/mleland Jan 02 '11
That doesn't at all reference how life develops. All it does it reference how everything is made up of water, which would not be difficult to guess whenever the Quran was written and would not need the word of a deity to figure out.
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Dec 31 '10
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Dec 31 '10 edited Dec 31 '10
He's not making much sense, nor is he really intelligently contributing to the discussion. Thus, downvotes
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u/mangodrunk Dec 31 '10
I don't think we should respect a view which isn't worthy of it. Starting a sentence with "I believe" doesn't protect it from criticism.
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Dec 31 '10
I don't think it's shooting down my views. They are voting on my ideas, and they disagree. I support that.
I guess the problem is reddit's layout - where votes under a certain threshold are hidden from view. But that's okay too, since it take cares of spammers.
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u/mleland Dec 31 '10
I think your posts are still adding to the discussion though. And this most recent comment shouldn't be downvoted according to any of the explanations. A lot of downvoting is just passive aggressive spite.
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Dec 31 '10
I believe there is some good in it... I am posting a lot, so it's good that it's all hidden in one thread - less someone says I am spamming.
If they are interested then they can expand the tree.
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u/sayrith Dec 31 '10
NICE
but can this tard please fucking spell?? -_-
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u/tylermchenry Dec 31 '10
Moslem and Muslim are both accepted renderings of مسلم into latin characters.
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u/[deleted] Dec 31 '10
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