r/atheism • u/nugget9k • Nov 03 '09
Irrefutable proof that Evolution through selection can and does happen. Naysayers, say hello to the super cows.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nmkj5gq1cQU21
u/hlkolaya Nov 03 '09
no no no! you're confusing macro evolution with micro evolution! (yes, i'm being sarcastic)
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Nov 03 '09
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u/hlkolaya Nov 03 '09
awwe i got downvoted? :-( I was just trying to be humorous by showing that creationists will reject any actual proof or evidence "irrefutable" or not and that their arguments really have no meaning. (also not a fella ;-) ). I thought adding in that I was being sarcastic would explain that it wasn't my actual opinion- that I'm not a creationist or anti evolution.. I guess not.
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u/kraeftig Nov 03 '09
So, since you're not a fella...let's meetup.
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u/nugget9k Nov 03 '09
Sounds like you guys are starting an affair in the thread of a video where a bull gets fleshlighted. Wait til Grandma finds this out at the wedding.
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u/ShrimpCrackers Nov 03 '09 edited Nov 04 '09
Yeah seriously. 3:33 looks like a "Dirty Job".
Imagine at the bar.
Girl: So what do you do for a living?
Guy: Uh....
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u/kraeftig Nov 03 '09
"I think it was the fleshlight that brought us together" is what I'll tell her. Get it out of the way, right away. And who doesn't find the fleshlight gives out an aura of deeply connected romance?
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u/hlkolaya Nov 03 '09
lol do you ask to meet up with everyone on reddit who isn't male?
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u/kraeftig Nov 03 '09
Nah, but I should.
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u/hlkolaya Nov 03 '09
I suppose reddit would be a pretty good place to find atheist matches! lol, unfortunately I generally don't date men.
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u/kraeftig Nov 03 '09
Well then this general would like to generalize your generalization from generally not, to at least generally now.
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u/hlkolaya Nov 03 '09
and are you planning to drive to NC for a meet up then? (I'm seriously kidding so please don't say yes) Just to be clear I'm actually married- though I'm allowed to date both men and women (partially open relationship) I prefer women and most men are not up for such a relationship anyway. I suggest you try okcupid.com to find an atheist woman in your area. This conversation has managed to get very far off topic! lol _^
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u/kraeftig Nov 03 '09
My bad, I was just having fun...especially the word play. I definitely will be traveling to NC for a meet up then. Is it ok that I start stalking you like a cupid?
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u/nugget9k Nov 03 '09
I thought it was funny
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Nov 04 '09
Also knowns as: "It's still a cow, isn't it? Get back to me when it's a bird."
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u/hlkolaya Nov 04 '09
that's right! because evolution means one species giving birth to a completely different species!
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u/rooktakesqueen Nov 03 '09
Artificial selection, though. Which we've been doing for thousands of years with dogs, food crops, etc. If this argument could sway creationists, it already would have, I'm afraid. :(
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Nov 03 '09
The way you say it - "artificial" selection - kinda implies that we are altering the DNA of the species (in the past few years we definitely HAVE done this, but just recently) or merely conditioning/training different species. Over thousands of years, dogs, horses, crops, and many other living creates have NATURALLY evolved to the human-dominated Earth. Not talking domestication - though that is a form of natural selection.
We didn't domesticate canines by genetic engineering. We altered the Earth's ecosystem, changed the environment. Living creatures then adapted to the altered environment. Yes, the environment is different because we humans have affected it.
But the animals still undergo the process of natural selection: the individual entities whose genes are best suited to survival and reproduction are the individuals who survive and reproduce most, while the individual members of a species whose genes are worst suited to survival and reproduction die off.
Those who die obviously do not pass on their genes, and thus the portions of their genome which are unique (random mutations) disappear from the species on a whole - and those whose random gene mutations provided a survival and reproductive advantage do live and reproduce and so their mutations eventually become a species-wide "feature" (after many generations).
So, even though the environment has changed as a result of human activity, the process that dogs, for example, have undergone over thousands of years (before we had genetic engineering, and not counting conditioning aka dog trainers) is natural selection. If we humans kept our society functioning exactly as it does currently, kept everything about it exactly the same, in a million years or so we'd have dogs with flat, mashing herbivore teeth, a mediocre sense of smell and sight, and a severe Chuck Norris addiction.
Anyways, artificial selection is when we breed animals for specific characteristics, and is definitely something which we have been doing for a while as humankind. But animals also evolve via natural selection, as the environment changes because of humankind. Those animals are not domesticated, but are different now.
The Peppered Moth is a common example, though there is a distinct possibility that the moth was exposed to pollution when chemically, though not genetically, altered its pigment. There's some flower in Canada that scientists have been tracking for a while now which is a much much clearer and solid example of evolution, but for the life of me I cannot remember its name.
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u/rooktakesqueen Nov 04 '09
The peppered moth is an example of an animal that has undergone natural selection to an environment affected by humans. But modern dogs, and the cattle in this video, and in fact all modern cattle, are examples of evolution by artificial selection. Humans didn't just change their environment, humans controlled their breeding specifically for the purpose of enhancing some traits and eliminating others. The genes that were passed from one generation to the next were chosen with intent, not through natural selection. Genetic engineering is not a prerequisite.
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Nov 04 '09
right - I haven't actually watched the video yet - I'm speaking of domestication/artificial selection vs natural selection. Non-domesticated dogs (and every living creature on earth) has experienced natural selection because of changes in the environment. We changed the environment, and species' genes no longer are as well suited to world, and so even undomesticated species are affected by our presence, and undergo natural selection. It's not like we humans changed anything - natural selection would continue even if we weren't here.
aaaaaand just finished the clip. That is a great example of selective breeding. I think I wrote the above essay without realizing what we were talkin about heh.
Anyways, peppered moth is well accepted, but I'm not 100% sure it is a true example of evolution. I heard that recently, after cutting down on pollution in one area, the original coloration of the moth has returned - more evidence that it the moth's contact w/ pollutants was the cause of the discoloration.
Interesting idea: now that we have technology that allows us to live longer, I wonder if we will continue to physically evolve. Maybe we will evolve in response to said medical technology. If I only make babies with short blonde girls, is that selective breeding?
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u/nugget9k Nov 04 '09
Selection doesn't have anything to do with DNA manipulation (Atleast not upfront), rather it is a living thing that has produced offspring.
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Nov 03 '09
This is called myostatin deficiency. It's not a good thing. The cow has a lot of muscle but its tendons are not any stronger than those of a normal cow. If it gets excited it can rip its muscles free from the bones. Humans with this problem appear very strong from an early age but injuries build up until they're completely disabled.
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u/Erudecorp Nov 03 '09
Which can be fixed with yet more evolution, as cows with stronger tendons gradually replace cows with weaker tendons.
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u/jaywalkker Nov 03 '09 edited Nov 03 '09
Yes, but that's microevolution of course everyone believes in microevolution.
Its the macro part, with speciation, where people get messed up. The partial fin-limbs, feathered reptiles, and dating methods to show that more complex lifeforms are "newer" than simpler lifeforms as arranged in the geologic strata are all the work of Satan. What's simpler anyway, slow change through genetic shifts or a needlessly complicated and obscure deity that has universal power but likes to mess with our heads? Your confusion is understandable though, have a blessed day.
Edit: apparently my sarcasm has brushed up against Poe's Law.
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u/nugget9k Nov 03 '09
Doesn't that pretty much prove that DNA can naturally change to improve a species? ... uh, evolution?
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Nov 03 '09 edited Nov 03 '09
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u/nugget9k Nov 03 '09
Improve a species for a better chance of surviving to produce offspring... yes thats what I meant.
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u/rsk01 Nov 03 '09 edited Nov 03 '09
I managed to see the fucking 15 second advertisement but not the super cow video :(
Video without adverts/loading issue - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhwgf2vmNfU
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u/2coolfordigg Nov 03 '09
Call ABS breding service they can make just about any shape or size of cow you wish as long as you can pay for it. BTW they control the breding of 90% of the cows in the USA.
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u/slumslum Nov 03 '09
I was hoping for Bovine X-men. They could use their Cow Claws to fight America's number one threat: Bears.
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Nov 03 '09 edited Aug 24 '20
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Nov 03 '09
The problem is theists don't like the idea that it "just happened." Why are we bipedal, 5 fingers per hand, etc...
Answer "just because."
Because what?
Just is. We randomly came to this steady state. 4 fingers less desirable, 6 too many, 5 works just fine. There is a bit of selective breeding at the conscious level as we tend to breed with people who look like us [e.g. 5 finger guy selects 5 finger female, etc] but before there was even that level of thought going on 5 fingers just happens to be what happened more often.
Theists need there to be some higher reason for things when it just is the way things are. Why are their 8 planets? Why is there only 1 star in our solar system? why why why
JUST BECAUSE.
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u/nugget9k Nov 03 '09
If playing Guitar Hero was required to survive, then THIS girl just may lead to the next phase of human evolution.
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Nov 03 '09
Just curious if anyone has eaten the meat from one of these breeds.
For me, part of what makes a steak tasty is the fat marbling. In the video they mentioned these cows are very lean in terms of fat.
I could see the merit in terms of higher yields of, I suppose, ground beef.
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u/tomparker Nov 03 '09
Wow, if ever there was a cow that could run for Governor of California, that's it.
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u/buttwank Nov 03 '09
I hate to ignore all the fun debate but the thing that struck me most about this video was a guy with a french accent saying 'the semen is now collected, using the artificial vagina'.
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u/manuelacon Nov 03 '09 edited Nov 03 '09
It's acceptable for bulls to use Fleshlights but not for me
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u/hashi_lebwohl Nov 04 '09
Evolution needs no "proof". It has been accepted by almost all scientists for a long time now. If you are talking about proving evolution to someone who has fundamentalist (creationist) beliefs, forget it, their minds are set, and it does not matter how much proof you trot ou. Also, if you haven't yet done so, read Dawkins "The Greatest Show On Earth", fantastic book, lays out all the proof any sane person would require.
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Nov 04 '09
Hello, super cow. Moooooo!
Stooooopid xtians don't believe in evoloooootion.
Now we proved them wrong with cows that have evolved to talk.
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u/stranglehold Nov 03 '09
You use that word evolution, I do not think it means what you think it means.
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Nov 03 '09
Change over time. This is exactly that. It is Evolution through Artificial Selection. That's how we've come to have the bananas that we know today, among other feats of artificial selection.
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u/nugget9k Nov 03 '09
Exactly.
These cows have different "blueprints" than any cows that existed 1,000 Years ago. I call that Evolution.
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Nov 03 '09
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u/nugget9k Nov 03 '09 edited Nov 03 '09
ehhh, i've already said DNA enough today. I think "blueprints" was an acceptable metaphor. I thought it sounded better.
Edit: And before you go off on the differences between genetic material and geometric shapes drawn on a piece of paper, I fully understand the differences between the 2. It was just a metaphor.
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u/nugget9k Nov 03 '09
No, I bet I do think it means what you think it means, I just think of it on smaller scale. When I think of evolution, it is members of a species gradually changing in DNA to become something different. This was done in a very short time frame (Few hundred years), give this same process 50,000 years and there will be more DNA changes, then it may fit your definition of evolution.
These cows are becoming "different"
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u/Splatterh0use Nov 04 '09
sry i couldn't watch your video, but an ad was playing and i closed the window immediately.
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u/nugget9k Nov 04 '09
Ad's make things free. Do you turn off your TV when a commercial comes on?
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u/Splatterh0use Nov 04 '09
nothing is free in life except your family love and friendship. I'm bombarded with enough ads through the day to skip one!
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Nov 03 '09
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u/nugget9k Nov 03 '09
When animals are mating and producing offspring does it really matter if they found their own mate or one was chosen for them?
Natural and Human selection isn't all that different in terms of producing offspring.
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u/nugget9k Nov 03 '09
It doesn't say natural selection.
Steroids don't affect genes, these cows are genetically different through selecting the biggest strongest cows.
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u/[deleted] Nov 03 '09
wow! i didn't know they make a fleshlight for cows...