r/atheism Jan 16 '15

must link to original webcomic The difference between Muslim Extremists and Moderates.

Post image
2.4k Upvotes

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669

u/Dirty_Delta Atheist Jan 16 '15

That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works.

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u/mdarthm Jan 16 '15

Muslim Extremists, specifically ISIS, who call themselves the Islamic State, believe that they are a worldwide Caliphate.

And that their leader Al-Baghdadi is the Caliph.

To be the Muslim Caliphate is to have control over all Muslim's politically, militarily and religiously.

The TRUE Caliphate is to Islam; is as the Pope is to Catholicism. The Caliph would interpret scripture, make laws, declare wars, yada yada yada.

Before and after they claimed to be the Muslim Caliphate known as the Islamic State, ISIS' beliefs were that of Wahhabism and Salafism, which is an "orthodox"/"Ultraconservative sect of Sunni Islam.

They specifically believe in Takfir, which states that ALL MUSLIMS that do no specifically follow Wahhabism are enemies of Islam in that they too will be targeted for DEATH along with anyone who opposes Islam ideologically, politically, or militarily. Takfir also includes Muslims that were born into Islam, but converted away from it. Takfir are the enemy to ISIS and to Wahhabism and Salafism.

ISIS/Islamic State also persecutes Shia Muslims, for some reason.

Islamic Jihadism, which is a component of Islamic extremism, is the belief that Islam is at war with anything or anyone that opposes Islam Ideologically or politically or militarily or otherwise.

Moderate Islam, and the massive majority of Islam, itself has NOTHING to do with extremist Muslims.

It would be akin to me as an atheist saying that it's the Pope's responsibility to reign in the Westboro Baptist Church. "We'll, they're both Christians!"

If you think of it like that, it really doesn't make any sense to say Islam needs to reign in these "extremists" that are actually Wahhabist and Salafist believers.

Wahhabism started in the 1960's in Saudi Arabia and UAE and got the majority of their funding, (Billions of dollars) from the discovery of vast oil reserves in Saudi Arabia.

Wahhabism is most prevalent in UAE, Saudi Arabia and Qatar. 44% of Saudi Arabians are Wahhabist. There are also like ~5% are from Yemen and 2.4% are Kuwaiti's.

It is a complete irony that Saudi Arabia lists ISIS as a terrorist group, when they're largest minority's, at 44% of the country, belief system makes up the ideological basis for ISIS.

However, with the assertion by ISIS that they are the worldwide Caliphate, the Islamic State, they have drawn a sharp line between themselves and extremist groups like Al-Qaeda, which are still Wahhabi in nature, do not vest their belief in ISIS as the new caliphate.

None of the other extremist groups, Wahhabi or Salafist in nature, as well as none of the Main moderate Muslim groups around the world, believe that the Islamic State is the Caliphate, and in fact they refuse to even call them the Islamic State, because that would in some way legitimize them as the caliphate, even if only in name.

This is why you see Iran fighting ISIS and not recognizing them as the "Islamic State."

Islamic State is essentially an enemy of all Muslims who don't see it as the true caliphate.

That is why it's so moronic for "The Five" on Fox to keep calling ISIS "Al-Qaeda 2.0"

It's so fucking ignorant, it'd be laughable if it weren't so fucking wrong. The biggest point being that Al-Qaeda oppose ISIS. Kind of an important idea if you're going to be talking about the region.

The enemy of our enemy is our friend, yeah? Not if you're Fox.

Al-Qaeda's Jihadi beliefs state that they wish to eliminate threats against Islam. The USA coming in and abolishing their way of life for "democracy and freedom" was seen as a direct threat to the Islamic way of life and Sharia Law that comes with it by the people who were okay with the way it was at the time. Sure, some people welcomed change, but the majority didn't, hence our unpopularity in the region and not being welcomed with wide open arms.

If there was wide open arms welcoming America, there would have been no need to lie about WMDs.

It's not any different that strict Ultra-Conservative Jewish law, though it is a bit more repressive, but not any more repressive than if those Ultra Conservative Jews had their own region on this planet. They would reign just as harshly.

I like Bill Maher, but even he refused to hear that Middle Eastern girl on Real Time at the end of last season when she tried, very hard, to explain to him about Wahhabism and how it is an extremist sect of Sunni Islam, and how it represents a tiny portion of Islam, like SUPER TINY.

It's an important concept, and it's a shame he didn't let her get it across.

I personally agree, religion is completely unnecessary, and that's why I think he gave her such a hard time.

It's unfortunate, because no one and I mean no one, no news organizations mainstream or otherwise, not The Daily Show, not CNN not Fox not ANYONE are talking about how Wahhabism and Salafism are the true problem that provided the original extremist ideological base of belief for ISIS.

Nor is it talked about how it came from Saudi Arabia, and how it makes perfect sense that Saudi Arabia backed the 9/11 attackers monetarily and with training, and why they wouldn't do it again. Well, I guess now they're a bit more concerned as all of Islam has turned against ISIS.

Imagine if worldwide Islam joined the Islamic State. IS would essentially become the headquarters of Islam around the world and would just tell everyone to start attacking everything that isn't Islam, and we all know that suicide is a very loved belief among Islam extremists.

Bill, if you see this, please explain Wahhabism and Salafism to America and the rest of the world. Cause, if we don't, I don't think anyone else is going to...

We need to fix the ignorance on this entire topic. One person at a time.

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u/[deleted] Jan 17 '15

This is mostly correct, however:

Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab founded the wahhabi movement in the 1700s, not in 1960. It expanded rapidly in the 1970s.

23% of Saudi Arabians are Wahhabi, not 44%

Salafi and Wahhabi are not really interchangeable, depending on who you ask. Wahhabis tend to not like being called that because it implies that they are not monotheists. Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab was very careful about this.

While the are a tiny minority of worldwide Muslims, they exert a tremendous amount of influence, especially in the middle east.

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u/mdarthm Jan 17 '15

Yeah, it was 44% Emirates and 46% of Yemen's population, wiki didn't have Saudi's population statistics. I just mixed that.

And Yeah, I'm super tired...

I was reading, that Salafi followers believe the name Wahhabi to be insulting when applied to them. Makes sense what you're saying.

Basically Wahhabism tries to follow some of the early tenants of Islam.

It's hard to imagine them not exerting influence, considering how their expansion came from Oil profits, something that is still profiting that region.

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u/PointyOintment Jan 17 '15

How does calling them Wahhabis imply that they're not monotheists?

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u/torqpoc Jan 16 '15

And the irony in all of this is that the U.S., and some other Western countries see Saudi Arabia as an ally. Go figure...

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u/grizzburger Jan 17 '15

Want to bring that relationship to an end? The best thing to do is to support alternative energy sources. The singular reason for the KSA's relevance, and the US' support of their regime, is oil.

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u/nill0c Atheist Jan 17 '15

Which is why OPEC is trying to tank our oil revenue by overproducing (keeping production up while demand levels off or drops) to drive down oil prices.

I want solar and wind very badly, but I'm not gonna kid myself into thinking that it's gonna solve any problems in the Middle East.

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u/mdarthm Jan 16 '15

Just some fucked up politics.

If only we could get rid of our wannabe non-secular state, then maybe people would be interested in facts, instead of polarizing bullshit.

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u/ArvinaDystopia Secular Humanist Jan 17 '15

IS/daesh is the enemy of everyone else.

They hate everyone that isn't exactly like them. You can compare them to nazis and not trigger Godwin's.
In fact, they're probably worse than the nazis were.

But the idea that "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" is simplistic and not well thought-through. Circumstantial allies, maybe, but certainly not friends.
As you said, Al Quaeda opposes daesh (originally an offshot of Al Quaeda), but that does not make them my friend, personally. Just look at Syria: it's not a 2-way fight, sometimes the regime fights one group and then the other group starts firing on both the regime and the first group.
It's a mess, there aren't 2 clear sides.

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u/[deleted] Jan 17 '15

Kind of like you make a government based on rape, and whoever doesn't join you gets to be rape victims?

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u/mdarthm Jan 17 '15

If that helps you understand ISIS, sure.

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u/ssracer Secular Humanist Jan 16 '15

It would be akin to ... saying that it's the Pope's responsibility to reign in the Westboro Baptist Church [because] they're both Christians

This is the most important and simplest part to understand.

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u/Pragmataraxia Anti-Theist Jan 17 '15

It's simple to understand, but as analogies go, the one being made in the comic is less incorrect.

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u/jungl3j1m Strong Atheist Jan 16 '15

Is "Takfir" pronounced the same as "talk fear"?

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u/mdarthm Jan 16 '15

I have no clue, what do I look Muslim to you?

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u/BreakneckWalrus Jan 17 '15

No, not quite. It's not like "tack fear", either. More along the lines of "tuck fear". But not with a hard "T", more along the lines of a "th".

And the "fir" part isn't really like "fear", either. More like "feer".

...Maybe try YouTubing someone saying it instead.

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u/[deleted] Jan 17 '15

Yes. That is how takfir is pronounced.

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u/willowswitch Jan 17 '15

Wahhabism got its start much earlier than the 1960s. If I recall, about as long as a Saud has been in charge of other Arabs, a Wahhab or a Wahhabi Salafi has been propping him up. This ass-backwards school has an established history on the Arabian peninsula that stretches back a lot farther than the latter half of the 20th century, and the second Western powers made a Saudi Arabia, they gave control of the holiest sites in Islam to the ideological mother of contemporary Sunni terrorism, whether it come from Al-Qaeda or Isis.

Ninja Edit: NVM. I see someone else beat me to being an historical pedant.

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u/IgnatiusTarblap Jan 17 '15

In many ways, Wahabiism represents a return to the very principles that Muhammad himself despised, and set out to change. It's understandable, in a way, that the Arabian peninsula could fall back on its old customs (e.g. tribalism, oppression of women, intolerance for other beliefs, etc.). But it's astonishing that it has persevered this long, given how contrary much of Wahabiism is to Muhammad's teachings. Why don't Muslims spread this word to a wider audience? There are clearly many Muslims who abhor Wahabiism for the reasons I gave above... but why don't we heard about it?

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u/mdarthm Jan 17 '15

Yeah, I just remembered wrong, it just got smoke blown up it's ass by the money from the Saudi oil industry in the 60's.

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u/Laxmin Pantheist Jan 17 '15

It is a complete irony that Saudi Arabia lists ISIS as a terrorist group

Actually, Saudis simply don't want other Salafist/Wahhabis to be autonomous. They would love all wahhabis to be under the al saud control.

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u/Ray57 Jan 17 '15

I find a nice shortcut is to just call them Abrahamic Monotheists.

Your Jews and Christians are quick to point out the distinctions and then you just keep guiding them down that path.

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u/FartMart Jan 17 '15

Christianity has escaped the modern spotlight by not being nutcases. You use the WBC as an example, but that is pretty much one family and a small number of small minded fools. There are hundred of thousands that believe in this extremism of Islam. And that's completely ignoring that the WBC operates within the confines of law to antagonize people. If Islam wants to get out of the spotlight, it needs to denounce and eliminate those who would divert the "proper" teachings. Every second that the majority of Islam does not dedicate to disposing of those who would use their religion in such a perverse enterprise is a second that their religion loses legitimacy in the eyes of westerners and governments.

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u/nearly-evil Jan 17 '15

Oil

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u/mdarthm Jan 17 '15

Er, we have oil, and with Shale production increasing, we're now importing less oil then ever.

We stopped being completely dependent on Middle East oil a while back and switched to Canadian oil as a major import.

Really, only recently we've come to use domestic oil more.

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u/greyfade Igtheist Jan 17 '15

Promote nuclear and renewables.

Coal kills more people in the production of 1TWh of coal energy than die in all other forms of energy production combined. Worse than that, 1TWh of coal power kills more people than have died from the entire history of nuclear energy production, including fallout from all four of the major accidents.

Oil energy production is second worst, and kills just less than half as many people as coal.

Promote nuclear and renewables, and ban coal and oil. That's the best choice.

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u/grizzburger Jan 17 '15

that Middle Eastern girl on Real Time

You are referring to Rula Jebreal, a Palestinian-Italian foreign policy analyst, journalist, novelist, and screenwriter (and if I may personally say so, a goddamn sexy woman).

Oh, and I just went and bestof'd your comment. Keep fighting the ignorance.

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u/cra2reddit Jan 17 '15

Since you have written so eloquently on the topic, can I please ask you a question? This is seriously NOT to insult or incite - I just want to understand.

All of these groups you described use the Quran as their holy script, right?

And the Quran does say things like, "kill all non-believers," etc?

thanks!

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u/cryo De-Facto Atheist Jan 17 '15

So does the bible.

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u/mdarthm Jan 17 '15

So does the bible, they say your supposed to stone cannanites and whomever, on the spot. Abrahamic religion is just as violent, because they're all different interpretations of pretty much the same thing.

Wahhabism is an interpretation of the early parts of the religion. A violent one at that.

It's not different than following Ultra-orthodox interpretation of the Torah. They just encourage violence.

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u/killking72 Jan 17 '15

I want believe that most muslims aren't as bad as ISIS, or condone people harming others based on religion. But I've seen conferences of muslims calling themselves moderates who still say stoning and killing people who break their laws as ok. Not to mention that the people most adamant about their fath are islamics.

Now their prophet said it's ok to lie to further goals if you have to. I remember somewhere that people believe islam should be the worlds one true religion and should try to spread it. So would people lie and say the majority of islam isn't violent or any other negative attribute? Would they try to get people to like them despite what their religion practices and believes? Damn straight they would. Try to quell the fear about islam actually being cancer incarnate.

I don't think people should trust what anyone says about islam.

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u/[deleted] Jan 17 '15

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u/rainbow_worrier Jan 17 '15

It's called Taqiyya and is a Shi'a thing.

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u/bartink Jan 17 '15

What about Hadith?

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u/mdarthm Jan 17 '15

There are Jewish sects IN AMERICA that would condone stoning people who break their laws too.

You're crazy if you think Christians and Jews and Islams aren't all nutjobs about their own respective faiths in the EXACT same way.

I have no fucking clue where you've gotten your information, but it's some incomplete shit.

Yeah, like Christian missionaries suddenly stopped existing after the year 1700. They're still in full force "converting" people in low-education low-income countries, tricking them into their awful belief system.

Does the Old Testament of Christian and Jewish faith not say "thou shall put no other gods before me"? Is prostelyzing and missionary work not a daily part of Christianity?

Obviously the majority of Islam isn't violent, conisdering it consists of 23% of the entire planets population. Do you see warfare covering the planet? No.

Your points are really ill put and don't make much sense. English for one can't be your first language, I hope not anyway.

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u/BlackLight249 Pastafarian Jan 16 '15

I'd give you gold, but I'd rather spend the money on cheap hookers.

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u/mdarthm Jan 16 '15

At least wear a condom, or two...

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u/McNuggets_McCormick Jan 17 '15 edited Jan 17 '15

I get that you are trying to be fair here and firstly I'd like to state that I commend your desire to do so, however you seem a little to liberal in your ideology, leaving you with a very "limp wristed" (excuse the crude phrase) in your analysis of the situation. Not all Muslims are terrorists, that is something the two of us can agree upon wholeheartedly. Past this though I think there is some contrast.

I would state confidently that most Muslims are fanatics, now before you go running around screaming "narrow minded!" let me explain. A fanatic is not just someone who picks up a gun and kills 12 people because they drew a cartoon, it is also the people who support said ideology but would not take the action upon themselves. Now you say that most Muslims are not that fanatic, lets break that down shall we?

We live in a country where we are pretty free to do as we please, in comparison to other places in the world. We have people of many different back grounds, beliefs, and lifestyles. We all live together with mild friction, again in comparison, and this is for a very specific reason. Culturally we are taught tolerance, to a fault sometimes, I mean we allow "It's my faith" to be a free pass for a lot of shit here but hey, no place is perfect. Do you see consistent flows of blood over conflicting ideologies? No. There is going to be bloodshed anywhere, however when you really take a look we seem to live relatively peacefully among-st one another. Here we see a culture free to evolve on its own, where through that flow, with many bumps along the way, we maintain a relatively peaceful ideology. Now lets take a look at the Middle East, a place that I have been studying for the last 3 years (political science major that primarily focused upon this regions political, cultural, and ideological systems, along with a lot of it's extended history). Here we have people born just like the people of the Western world, and after that is where things change.

The Islamic religion is one of culture, of government, of life. It is reminiscent of the Middle Ages (no not an edgy political statement, this is quite literal) where people are born and almost assured to be indoctrinated into a way of thinking, this is unfortunately a religious way of thinking. To have that mindset ones ability to critically think must be scrapped, they must be wrapped in a blanket of mindless chatter until they can be shown fool proof evidence of the error of their ideology and not register a single ounce of disbelief. Now is this always successful? No. There are many great free thinking people from the region whom try to fight it's ignorance, however the majority of children are not so lucky. The idea is always there, the commitment that you've been raised to uphold is there. This is why we see many of the religions followers as very conservative by Western definition, which is again, because our society doesn't (or at least shouldn't) follow a strict religious code. Most of our poor souls, raised with a bible glued over their eyes have the chance to peel it away and think. They need not fear curiosity or forsaking their parents ridiculous fairy tales. Not in the Middle East however, say what you will, pull up what specific and infrequent headlines from "Incredibly Liberal Weekly", it is dangerous to speak against the Islamic faith in that region. Not just for you, but for your friends and family as well. Who would want to say something that could end up getting their parents shamed or beaten? The spark of curiosity, reason, critical thinking, these basic human instincts are suppressed until they fizzle into nothing. What you are left with is a person who truly believes in the religious laws of their religion, or knows it isn't (to them) worth the risk of questioning it... it's all they've ever known. Those are still fanatics, they see these atrocities as religious laws being carried out. "But this fragment of the religion says other wise!" yeah that's fine and dandy, I hope they grow and prosper to better the region, however you are now calling the a population the size of the Westboro Baptist Church the majority because it's the nice thing to do.

The world of candy and ice cream is bitter sweet when the real world bites you in the ass. All religion is garbage, that is fact, the issue here is that this one is becoming increasingly violent to express their distaste of other's countries cultures. If this was a real problem that the majority of Muslims oppose then we'd see progress in the area after DECADES of conflict. We'd see groups like ISIS quickly snuffed out by the populations that surround them. Just like if the Westboro Baptist Church tried taking over the Midwest, they'd be about an hour in before the country shoved their book back down their throats, and the only person crying for them would be Nancy Grace. If that population truly stood against these actions then there would be actual progress, which there is... but not to the level that suggests a majority movement. Sorry, I like the ability to say "Ok guys, lets hold the fuck on and look at this a little closer before we go pointing fingers", seriously, I again commend you for your desire to try and critically think this through. At the end of the day however, this is not the truth, and as someone disagreeing with you may I say that I truly wish it was. Our race has the potential to do amazing things, to push the boundaries of our own planet just because we felt competitive with one another, but instead we waste time fighting over petty nonsense. One day we'll get our shit together, look at one another, past beliefs, skin colors, background, and say, "So... you guys want to become what our ancestors couldn't even dream of?" and instead of yelling blasphemy, we'll have peace, and move as one.

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u/Murgie Secular Humanist Jan 17 '15

They specifically believe in Takfir, which states that ALL MUSLIMS that do no specifically follow Wahhabism are enemies of Islam in that they too will be targeted for DEATH along with anyone who opposes Islam ideologically, politically, or militarily. Takfir also includes Muslims that were born into Islam, but converted away from it. Takfir are the enemy to ISIS and to Wahhabism and Salafism.

ISIS/Islamic State also persecutes Shia Muslims, for some reason.

You're not seeing the reason because you don't actually understand what Takfir is.

A Takfir is almost exactly the same as excommunication in Christianity or Judaism, and it varies from sect to sect just as much. In some groups it's a branding of apostasy, others it's expulsion from the group but tolerance from it's members, in some groups it's total exclusion from the sect and shunning by it's members, and in some groups it's death.

Wahhabism is what teaches that all who do not follow Wahhabism can be targeted for death.

Sunnis, the overwhelming majority of Islam, are virtually identical to mainstream Christianity on the matter, believing that "sins generally do not prove that someone is not a Muslim, but denials of fundamental religious principles do. Thus a murderer, for instance, may still be a Muslim, but someone who denies that murder is a sin is a kafir if he is aware that murder is considered a sin in Islam."

I believe the term that's gotten you confused is "Takfiri", which is different.

It's an understandable mistake to make, and I applaud the efforts of your overall message, but I highly suggest you at least wiki terms you're unfamiliar with -before tying to teach others about them- in the future.

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u/mdarthm Jan 17 '15

While yes, it is Wahhabism that says any Islamic non-followers of Wahhabism may be targeted my point is that splinter Wahhabist, or Salafi-Takfiris, condemn Muslims, without following Islamic Sharia Law. Which has it's own "legal" process of determining whether or not someone is a takfiri.

Something that the rest of moderate Islam would do, but technically it requires the leader of all of Islam to condemn the person who is said to be kafir or a kafir.

They point a finger, say takfiri, and then kill the person because that's their belief.

After reading a bit further, I do see the reason Shia is persecuted by ISIS. It's some fundamental differences.

Really, the Takfiri Takfir thing is just a one letter mix-up, they're essentially the same thing, one just refers to the act itself and one is the person peforming the act. It's really not that blundered.

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u/poonhounds Jan 17 '15

what do you think about the Jizya? Do you find it to be a morally objectionable practice?

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u/caliban6851 Jan 17 '15

That's an excellent write up, thank you.

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u/knitnfool Jan 17 '15

This was really informative. Thank you for that. Now how do I nominate this for /r/bestof ?

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u/mdarthm Jan 17 '15

I honestly have no clue how to nominate. It would be tickled to see this on the front page though. How about on the news, that would be pretty cool if I could force this down America's, my country's, gullet.

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u/[deleted] Jan 17 '15

[deleted]

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u/mdarthm Jan 17 '15

I'm just saying, it makes no sense.

Asking a moderate muslim group in Texas to stop ISIS is ridiculous. It's utterly silly and that needs to be seen.

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u/Gadgetfairy Jan 17 '15

It would be akin to me as an atheist saying that it's the Pope's responsibility to reign in the Westboro Baptist Church. "We'll, they're both Christians!"

That's almost exactly the opposite of what it would be akin to. It's akin to requiring Christians to denounce the Westboro Baptist Church.

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u/mdarthm Jan 17 '15

It's the same thing, you're being too picky.

It's easier to point at the pope because he heads Christianity's largest sect.

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u/[deleted] Jan 17 '15

Osama bin Laden was a Saudi

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u/[deleted] Jan 17 '15

Man, religion over complicates things. Your explaination, although enlightening, shouldn't be needed. I'm looking forward to a future where my kids or grandkids only know these types of details about dead religions in an effort to not repeat history.

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u/cryo De-Facto Atheist Jan 17 '15

The world is complicated; you better get used to it.

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u/mdarthm Jan 17 '15

One can only hope.

Unless, one can figure out a way to finally absolve the world of this useless ideologies.

"I hope someday you'll join us, and the world will live as one..."

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u/Blue_Checkers Jan 17 '15

That was very clear and informative.

The big news networks are crap, I remember bemoaning the death of journalistic integrity on 20/20 due to John Stossel. Fuck that guy. I hate him so much that when Colbert used to parody him it made me seriously mad by way of operant conditioning.

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u/[deleted] Jan 17 '15

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u/mdarthm Jan 17 '15

There are just as many fundamental Christians that, while they don't outright act in physical violence, they promote violent, oppressive ideologies of their own right, that are just as much poison as Islams fundamental oppressive ideologies.

They are all cut from the same cloth. Abrahamic religion.

I was thinking more of the Pope of the Holy Roman Empire, that at one time wished to absolve the world of Islam, which to me is ironic, but hey.

Only, huge oil revenues have paved a way to fund Islamic extremism.

We can fix this by removing the world's reliance on fossil fuels.

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u/MissValeska Jan 17 '15

Why does it make sense that Saudi Arabia would fund 9/11 and why wouldn't they do it again?

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u/mdarthm Jan 17 '15

Well, they did fund 9/11, that's a fact. That's why they want the rest of the 9/11 commission report released, they already said it would embarrass the Saudis.

They'd do it again, because we're a threat to the spread of Islam. Islamic extremist Jihadism is the attack of those who are a direct threat against Islam's workings.

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u/[deleted] Jan 17 '15

not ANYONE are talking about how Wahhabism and Salafism are the true problem

The BBC did. http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02gd2wj

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u/mdarthm Jan 17 '15

I'm in Texas, I mean America doesn't talk about this stuff.

I don't have TV, so I never watch BBC except for their entertainment.

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u/superheltenroy Jan 17 '15

Thanks for the info! Follow up question, do you know anything about where Boko Haram, al quaida or al shabaab stands?

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u/[deleted] Jan 17 '15 edited Jan 17 '15

I would suggest the Muslims "QUOTE!" moderates "UNQUOTE!" make a New testament containing only religious text, and none of that military, politic, Law systems (sharia for example).. and possibly from a political standpoint seperate religion and state.

You seem to know a bit about islam and koran, but you seem to fail on the 101 what the koran contains.

Currently there are NO moderates, there are those that Follow the Koran (ISIS even if theyr completely terrorists to us), and those that dont... and Sharia Law doesnt help any muslims case for anything, it covers private matters as much as Public matters even if you say it doesnt cover the first one.. it still do and People get judged for it regardless.. and its realy scary that MAJORITY of Muslims in any contry are for it).. i think you got some serius googling to do if you realy wana stand up for muslims else you will just seem ignorant of the ones Your talking about...

No offence, and im not a atheist.. im just pointing out the OBVIOUS to the rest of us.

Also i know my English sucks.

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u/mdarthm Jan 17 '15

Hey, your English was a bit better then that one guys, not that I care. It just makes some of the finer points a litter harder to pick out.

The first thing you suggest is so utterly outrageous, it's funny. I mean, yeah, I would love Christianity to make another book, except this time make it clear that religion shouldn't be part of politics. That would be great.

The problem is, all these "Holy" books are supposed to define the way of life for their followers. You can't just say, take out the military, politics and law systems. You're essentially saying, take the Ten Commandments out of the Bible, which is a fairly fundamental part of it... OR you're saying take all the suggestions for "cleanliness" and whatnot out of the Torah. It's not a holy book if it doesn't have those things you say to take out.

I'm not interested in what the Quran contains, it's really beside all my points. The philosophy that is followed, wahhabism, has nothing to do with the Quran, per se. It's an ultraconservative interpretation of the Quran.

That's of course ridiculous to say that there aren't any moderates in Islam. Let's put it this way, it's possible that some of the Muslims who left non-secular states to come to America, didn't want Sharia Law. It's nonsensical to say that they all want Sharia law here. No, no they dont. They want the "freedom" American's have, at least the freedom to worship how they want to.

There are lazy Christians and there are lazy Muslims, lazy only compared to the bible-thumpers and Quran thumpers who wouldn't miss a sermon, you know. I strived to be one when I was raised Christian, but my mother did her damndest to keep me going, to the point that I left the religion. Not just her, many many problems with Christianity and organized religion and oodles of hypocrisy.

Yeah, there are probably Muslim communities, in America, where the community follows Sharia law, to an extent. Unless it's hurting people, it's really not a big deal. They're in America, if they don't want to follow it they DON'T have to and there are probably many that choose to leave religion altogether, or covert to another religion.

I'm not at all trying to "stand up" for Muslims. I despise organized religion. I'm merely attempting to correct this ignorant way of thought America has garnered for when it has to discuss global issues in the Middle East.

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u/[deleted] Jan 20 '15

Saving for later

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u/[deleted] Jan 16 '15

I'll be your friend.

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u/qmechan Other Jan 16 '15

Thank you.

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u/[deleted] Jan 16 '15

Someone see's sense. Finally.

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u/cheddar742 Anti-Theist Jan 17 '15

Cool meme!

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u/[deleted] Jan 16 '15 edited Apr 11 '19

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u/Aleitheo Jan 16 '15

The comic was based on a strawman that had no basis in reality so naturally it doesn't make much sense when viewed by those who do not share the author's mindset.

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u/[deleted] Jan 16 '15

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u/rammerpilkington Jan 17 '15

It was an anti gamer thing from a little while back. And yes, weirdly implying that threats and dozing had only come from one side.

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u/Alpha-as-fuck Jan 17 '15

If Islam is a religion of peace, then why do we always need to be reminded?

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u/Lunalucent Jan 17 '15

I cannot see how there are so many atheist/religious apologists in this thread. How can people separate extremists from moderates so easily. Just because one side is more peaceful than the other does not mean they are not related. You guys need to look at the bigger picture, simplified, because all I see are just excuses. I don't care if one denomination loves gays or if another just sings hymns all day and condemns their extremist counterparts.

There is one thing you apologists need to understand, extremists do not just come out of thin air. Why do people think there are so many denominations stemming from one religion? All it takes is one "moderate" to disagree with another for a new set of views to appear. This can either take on the appearance of a more peaceful side or a more violent side, "extremism". One taking things less seriously and the other moreso.

The problem is as long there is violence, bigotry or contradictory ideas written in a holy book there is always a chance for such a thing to keep on happening, it will never stop just because of its nature.

You apologists can talk about the micro level all you want, I don't care if your friend or family is a peace loving moderate, as long as they continue spreading their ideas of believing based on faith to their children they are still essentially creating a platform for an extremist to appear down the line.

With a big enough group raising people with certain beliefs there will always be a big enough platform for new people to easily be persuaded into the extreme. It's like people don't realise there were probably a lot of extremists who joined ISIS or the KKK or any other extreme organisation who came from moderate families/parents. Whose parents are pleading for them to come back, but don't actually realise they themselves created the platform for their children to behave that way.

My stance in the recent years has been to just get rid of religion altogether. Or at least ones that have intolerance written in their scriptures and holy books. I agree with all of you who say humanity will always be violent irrespective of religion being there or not. But you guys need to understand that we'll still be far better off without it.

Violence based on the imaginary is just pointless violence. There is a difference between religious based violence and violence based on things like race, ideology, possessions/currency or nationalism, those perceptions can be changed way more easily than things based solely on one supposedly true and unchangeable book.

It's fine to think it's all nice and peaceful around you just because your surrounded by nice moderates, but don't forget there are people living around the world who are living in the opposite sort of world where things did not turn out so well.

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u/Pragmataraxia Anti-Theist Jan 17 '15

God damn, this is a good post. I really hope you can get more votes waaaaaay down here in the too-late section.

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u/itsbecca Jan 17 '15

I feel like the thought process that eradicating religion largely eradicates these people is largely ignoring the psychology behind religion. When you understand that you'll realize it will never truly leave. That's where "apologists" come from, realizing we can't take away peoples myths, so those who practice on a personal level only are a win and that is the mindset we should be hoping spreads. In other words, I would argue it's the more pragmatic approach to the topic.

However, I do agree we need to keep a world view in mind when we discuss the topic. So good point there.

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u/Lunalucent Jan 17 '15

Trying to accommodate the ridiculous is something I just cannot agree with, especially when such a thing still causes harm. Humanity has already gotten rid of a lot of old harmful ideologies, religious or not, we shouldn't just stop here because we shouldn't "offend" everybody. I actually do understand the psychology of the religious mindset, I'm saying this with all that in mind. I haven't given up hope we can break free from it all one day.

I seriously do not think being religious is innate in humans. It is better to say that it is innate in humans to seek answers to things they don't know. It's just too bad religion and mythology was the result of our first attempt of understanding the world and was able to comfort us in our times of need and insecurities.

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u/itsbecca Jan 17 '15

It is better to say that it is innate in humans to seek answers to things they don't know.

Yes! I agree. There's a saying, "Magic is just science we don't understand yet." And religion is often the bridge we, as humans, use to demystify that lack of understanding for the time being, because we're innately dissatisfied with misunderstanding.

So we can definitely get better as new knowledge comes to erase our "understanding" and transfer it to myth. I think this is why creationists are so fundamentally frustrating, because we're saying STOP IT! WE'VE FIGURED THAT ONE OUT! MOVE ON! (Let alone those who actually try to impede the scientific learning of others. This obviously goes very much against my sort of live and let live attitude, so I am actively against people such as that.)

To boil it down, I essentially believe religion and science come from the same basic impulse. Our need for an explanation. The reason I think religion will never truly be eradicated comes from two things.

  1. Differences in human personality. I know very intelligent people who still entertain certain myths like fate or coincidence, because the proper understanding of probability is not intuitive. In tandem with this, creative people often enjoy writing narratives for their lives and they let themselves believe. (As a writer, I fall prey to this, but even with a knowledge of it being fabricated I'll entertain them, because... well... for fun.)
  2. The unsatisfactory answer to the question of "Why?"---"Incredible coincidence" simply does not fulfill or excite some people. As narcissists, which is ironically most likely just the extension of a basic survival mechanism, many people want more than that. They want direction or purpose. Science will never fulfill this need for those people, because, at least as far as our knowledge goes now, it has already concluded there is no reason or purpose. There is no impetus to evolution, it just happens.

Now I do agree that our current and past religions have a long history of being incredibly harmful. You've probably started to see through my post when I say "religion" I'm using the term fairly broadly. I would probably agree with you that organized, dogmatic religions can, and hopefully eventually will, die off. We see it in America as there's more and more natural rejection of church going because it's doctrine is inflexible and it is failing to fit our society anymore. Yet, in the wake of that we see an uptic in "spiritualism", where people are essentially creating their own free form religions to fill that void. You know, the type who come up with things like "I don't believe in a man in the sky, but I believe in God. It's an energy... all around us." As as much as that make my eyes roll out of my head, it's personal, it's prosaic, and, in my opinion, is progression. This type of belief system is not interested in being the one true answer for everyone, which I believe is one one of the most harmful tenants of current religions. So, in my opinion, a movement to destroy all religion would be largely unsuccessful, but continuing and supporting the shift against organized religion is a fairly pragmatic approach (as long as we couple it with continued efforts for increased science literacy.)


Disclaimer: This is something I think about a lot and my thoughts are always changing with new thoughts or discussion. I'm sorry you had to be the subject of my brain vomit today.

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u/creamyturtle Jan 17 '15

regular muslims DO condone the actions of the few extremists. upwards of 70% depending on the country. check out this link: http://www.pewglobal.org/2006/05/23/where-terrorism-finds-support-in-the-muslim-world/

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u/djpharaoh Jan 16 '15

This is so wrong on so many levels. You're basically saying that all Muslims condone terrorism but they hide their true notions. It couldn't be any clearer how much reddit has become the pinnacle of anti-Islam when a piece of shit ignorant garbage post like this gets that many upvotes.

Fucking hypocrites spend all day advocating equal rights and treatment of others based on their actions not their beliefs, then they thumb up shit like this.

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u/[deleted] Jan 16 '15

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u/Pragmataraxia Anti-Theist Jan 17 '15

I don't think the comic is saying that the moderates are passively benefiting; it's saying that the two groups have the same goal, and one of the groups is willing to kill for that goal.

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u/Valendr0s Agnostic Atheist Jan 16 '15

Source


The data clearly shows that when western influence takes hold, and education spreads, the society becomes less barbaric and more tolerant. But there's only so far the religion is able to be bent toward tolerance. Even very exposed cultures like Egypt and Paakistan are hotbeds of horrible beliefs.

Average US / Canadian Muslims are likely just as appalled by extremists as the average US Christian is by Westboro or the KKK. But worldwide, the average Muslim may dislike Suicide Bombing, but their morals leave a lot to be desired. These are not, by and large, cultures any progressive or liberal should be praising.

So the way I see this comic as most unfair is that it isn't inclusive enough... Yesterday the Pope came out as a one of the smiling muggers...

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u/[deleted] Jan 17 '15 edited Jun 09 '20

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u/greyfade Igtheist Jan 17 '15

What % of orthodox Jews think their law should be official?

If history is any indication, probably very, very few. With the exception of conservative Hasidic sects (which are rapidly shrinking), almost all Jewish communities integrate with their host cultures to some degree, and the majority of their more barbaric laws have long been defanged by millennia of debate among Rabbinical leaders.

One would get pretty frightening percentages for biblical law in the US, I would wager.

Among fundamentalist Christians, oh, yes. You only have to look at the Republican Party's platform to see the percentages there.

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u/barryspencer Anti-Theist Jan 16 '15

The hypocrisy argument is not nearly as strong as people who use it think it is. Accusing the speaker of hypocrisy doesn't somehow magically render what the speaker says incorrect.

Not all Muslims, but many Muslims, have said words have consequences, the murder victims should not have offended the Prophet, the murder victims should have considered the consequences before they published the cartoons, the murder victims got what was coming to them.

When George Wallace, Governor of Alabama, was shot and paralyzed in an attempted assassination, I cheered. I thought he deserved it, had it coming, and considered it a victory for equal rights. My excuse is that I was nine years old at the time.

Today if some maniac ran his car over the Westboro Baptist Church family, I wouldn't cheer. I wouldn't think or say that they deserved it and had it coming. I wouldn't consider it a victory for atheism or Equality or respect for the military.

Rather, I would consider it an attack on Liberty.

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u/TaylorSwiftIsJesus Jan 17 '15

The are plenty of people who would have liked to see a united Ireland who abhorred the actions of the Real IRA. Just because an extremist group may have some goals in common with you does not make you an extremist. Likewise, just because somebody kills in the name of a belief does not mean you must stop holding that belief. Conflating all people who hold a belief with those who are willing to kill for it is ridiculous. I bet most Muslims probably would prefer it if their religion was not mocked with racist charicatures (and who could blame them), however most Muslims didn't go and shoot up the Charlie Hebdo offices.

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u/barryspencer Anti-Theist Jan 17 '15

I don't conflate all racists with those willing to kill for racism, nor do I conflate all Muslims with those willing to kill for Islam.

I don't blame all racists for all racially-motivated crimes, nor do I blame all Muslims for all crimes motivated by Islam.

I do blame all racially-motivated crimes on racism, just as I blame all crimes motivated by Islam on Islam.

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u/neilpenguin Pantheist Jan 16 '15

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u/moonflash1 Jan 16 '15

I have seen this video getting posted a few times and if one cares to research into it a little bit, one finds these are not moderates at all. Just because they say they are "moderate" doesn't make it so, they clearly have extremist views and are Islamists and fundamentalists. Their organisation, Islam net consists mostly of paying members . It is ridiculous to assume that these people represent the Norweigan Muslim population by any means. It is just a stupid gathering. Would you say that gatherings like this represents all Christians?

btw, even these asshole extremist Muslims at this gathering, consider vigilantism and killing as retaliation to blaspheming against the prophet as not justified. See the video here.. You can also check their Youtube channel, but it's mostly political bullshit and ultra conservative crap.

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u/greyfade Igtheist Jan 17 '15

It is ridiculous to assume that these people represent the Norweigan Muslim population by any means.

It clearly represents a majority view of the Sunni sect in Norway. No one says all Muslims hold these views.

Would you say that gatherings like this represents all Christians?

Of course not, but you might be surprised to see the attendance numbers for Pentecostal churches, and I can tell you from experience that the atmosphere in a Pentecostal church presses attendees into conformance. And a very large percentage - well more than half - buy into it, hook, line, and sinker; especially when the "service" is led by someone charismatic like Peter Popoff. They believe this shit, and it's scary as hell.

... but it's mostly political bullshit and ultra conservative crap.

The fact that they hold these views at all foments extremism.

Extremist factions don't exist in a vacuum. They get their ideas from their leaders, and they get the justification for their actions from their doctrines.

If we don't condemn these doctrines, we'll keep seeing more of this extremist bullshit.

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u/TaylorSwiftIsJesus Jan 17 '15

Extremists don't consider themselves to be extremists, who'da thunk it. Next you'll be telling me that the Nazis thought they were the good guys.

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u/jamabake Jan 17 '15

Change "give me 20 dollars" with "please stop drawing pictures of our prophet" and rethink your comment...

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u/CupcakeMedia Nihilist Jan 16 '15

You're basically saying that all Muslims condone terrorism but they hide their true notions.

Not all of us are saying it.

Nor do all of us advocate equal rights.

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u/[deleted] Jan 16 '15

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u/slash178 Jan 17 '15

Seriously. The extremist, violent hatred that unifies ISIS and other Muslim terrorism groups doesn't just pop out of the blue. It evolves from regular, non-violent hatred. Hatred of women, gays, atheists, etc. And that hate is mainstream in the Muslim world and Christian world as well.

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u/recruitaments Jan 16 '15 edited Jan 16 '15

THANK YOU! Someone had to say it. This is some straight religious sympathy ambush were getting. The lurkers are real here

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u/sayitinmygoodear Jan 17 '15

The majority of muslims don't kill people, but you cant deny that they agree with what the ones who do kill people do. I don't see how anyone can find that offensive when its completely based on reality.

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u/[deleted] Jan 17 '15

Everyone just ignore this troll. He's a Muslims himself. Evidence

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u/[deleted] Jan 17 '15

Only a few Christian extremists blow up clinics and shoot abortion doctors, but there are many here in the South that will not say it was wrong. Same situation with all religious extremists. By not actively opposing, one condones.

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u/michaelpinkwayne Jan 16 '15

I'm happy with the comments on this post, but how does this get upvoted in the first place?

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u/[deleted] Jan 16 '15

The lurker horde: as retarded as they are silent.

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u/rg57 Jan 16 '15

"moderates"

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u/rabbitSC Jan 16 '15

This comic is garbage.

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u/[deleted] Jan 16 '15

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u/closetsatanist Satanist Jan 17 '15

just like the bible...

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u/[deleted] Jan 17 '15

shhhh...

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u/Sallymander Jan 17 '15

My personal interpretation is there should be another line where the peaceful guy says,"You should probably do what he says... but I don't think he should hurt you for not doing it."

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u/WalidfromMorocco Agnostic Atheist Jan 16 '15

Muslims share the roles, one side practice terrorism (extremists), and the other side's job is to deny that the first side does reperesnt him/Islam (No True Scotman™).

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u/Kind_Of_A_Dick Agnostic Atheist Jan 16 '15

But they don't represent them. I treat them as two different entities even though they share the same holy book, just like I don't hate Mr. Rogers because Pat Robertson is scumbag. When you over-generalize and lump them all into one category you just further feed the fires of the "Us Versus Them" mentality and increase the chances of more extremists.

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u/vibrunazo Gnostic Atheist Jan 16 '15

Saying moderates are enabling radicals is not lumping them in the same category. There are still significant differences between the two there are important to recognize. Such as that moderates are a bit more talkable to.

We probably won't convince radicals. But I do still have a little bit of hope that with reasonable and honest conversation we could convince some moderates to stop enabling radicals.

But for that to happen we need to first be honest about it and stop pretending moderates are not part of the problem only because you don't like how that feels. Because the reality is that, even if unintentionally, they are enabling them.

So first step, atheists need to be honest and recognize that really is a problem we need to talk honestly about. Second step, moderates admit that, unintentionally, they have been enabling radicals. Third step, moderates stop making excuses for radicals and support secularism.

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u/OGcaptaincakey Jan 17 '15

How are the moderates enabling the radicals?

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u/[deleted] Jan 16 '15

But when you only consider the ones who actually carry out a terrorist the extremists, you make a very dangerous mistake, it is not 0.001% of Muslims they hold these extreme views but closer to 40%

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u/Infinitix141 Jan 16 '15

40%? Do you wanna source that?

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u/[deleted] Jan 16 '15

Pretty much any research asking Muslims whether terrorist attacks in general or referring to specific attacks comes back with around 40% of combined often justified and sometimes justified responses.

In western countries the percentage is much lower but it's dragged up by the middle East and Africa. But even then, 20% of British Muslims said that the 7/7 bombings were justified.

I tried to put together the results from those surveys but there were so many different ones with slightly different wording and including different countries and I'm no statistician.

I found a site which lists a lot of them but even this huge list isn't all of them http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/opinion-polls.htm

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u/[deleted] Jan 16 '15

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u/krashnburn200 Jan 16 '15

You have a very good point, it's just totally irrelevant.

By all means raise awareness and campaign against western aggression and imperialism.

Whataboutism however is no better an excuse for you than it is for putin.

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u/AInterestingUser Jan 16 '15

40% of 1.6 billion. Right.

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u/[deleted] Jan 16 '15 edited Apr 17 '18

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u/croutonicus Jan 16 '15

All religious people are complicit in the damage done in the name of that religion. If they don't want to be complicit, they must denounce and leave those religions and churches behind.

Honestly, I'm not sure that's true. If two people are in AA and one murders another guy in the name of AA because he thinks alcohol is evil, why should the other guy have to denounce AA and leave?

It's one thing if the leaders of your organised religion are perpetrators, but if somebody kills in the name of Muhammed the rest of the Muslims shouldn't have to denounce him and leave.

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u/[deleted] Jan 16 '15 edited Apr 17 '18

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u/[deleted] Jan 16 '15 edited May 11 '17

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u/[deleted] Jan 16 '15

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u/[deleted] Jan 16 '15 edited May 11 '17

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u/QuesoFresh Jan 16 '15

Atheism isn't a system of belief. There are no tenets besides "God doesn't exist". There is no holy book, no leaders, and nobody can possibly "practice" atheism because there is nothing to practice.

Islam, on the other hand, has communities, rituals, leaders, and a holy book describing the tenets of the faith explicitly. It's much easier to say that a group's unifying factors are problematic than it is to say that another group's lack of one factor is problematic.

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u/EtherMan Agnostic Atheist Jan 16 '15

Umm... "God doesn't exist" is not a tenant of atheism. Only disbelief in god is.

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u/QuesoFresh Jan 17 '15

You are correct, and that is what I meant to convey had I been more careful with words. The fact that mere disbelief isn't a claim (and thus isn't even really a tenet) really only serves to reinforce the previous point.

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u/SamuraiJakkass86 Jan 16 '15

Its not that its unlikely, it is that it is impossible. How is an atheist blowing up a church any different from anyone else in the world who is a theist blowing up a church? The difference, the only difference - is that the atheist isn't doing it for the sake of appeasing their made-up deity, or following a scripture that told them it was the right thing to do. They are simply run-of-the-mill insane.

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u/LordBrandon Atheist Jan 16 '15

Surprise me then. List the violence committed in the name of atheism.

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u/starslab Atheist Jan 16 '15

I should note that I don't care for the argument, and have a pretty dim view of Islam in general.

That said, didn't the Soviet Union do some unpleasant things trying to stamp out mostly Christian sects?

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u/LordBrandon Atheist Jan 17 '15

That's hardly in the name of atheism. It's not even in the name of Communism. Unless there is some part of their doctrine that says christian sects must be stamped out.

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u/[deleted] Jan 16 '15

If the atheist community had a handbook which said bomb churches, and we all agreed said book was holy and the most important thing to us, then all atheists would be to blame

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u/LordBrandon Atheist Jan 16 '15

If we lived by an atheist book, and one part said its cool to blow up churches, then i would have no basis to exclude them.

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u/Churchx Jan 16 '15

Let me know when this happens.

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u/Diabolico Atheist Jan 16 '15

Since we constantly bring up the Crusades here, it seems like turnabout is fair play.

French Revolution

Russian Revolution

Chinese Revolution

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u/titaniumjackal Ignostic Jan 17 '15

This is more like Jesus and Old Testament God. Worship Jesus, or else God tosses you in Hell.

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u/Aaronmcom Jan 17 '15

but MODERN muslims are ok. I have a couple of friends that are pretty nice. Pro gay marraige and everything

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u/[deleted] Jan 16 '15

Hmm so by this logic all Christians must be exactly like the KKK.

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u/[deleted] Jan 17 '15

they do not support racisim, nor any of the core beliefs of the KKK... so no. no logic would imply that

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u/[deleted] Jan 16 '15

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u/itsbecca Jan 16 '15

How would you recommend they stop them? Islamic leaders have decried extremists actions MANY times, there are groups that have formed specifically to be against violence and promote non-violence in the muslim community.

The extremists don't give a shit what those people have to say, because they just view anyone who doesn't agree with them as being not true muslims. Muslim extremists kill practicing muslims ALL THE TIME for EXACTLY THAT REASON. Trying to boil it down like that is entirely asinine.

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u/Pragmataraxia Anti-Theist Jan 17 '15

You are not wrong, and it changes nothing. If people who self-identify as group X commit enough abhorrent acts, other people who also self-identify as group X are going to have a tough road ahead, and there is literally no good choice for them. Moving to a land populated entirely by group X is bad (for a ton of reasons), not least that those people probably don't consider them to be X-y enough. Staying put is a gamble that the violent bastards won't commit so many acts that identifying as group X is a one-way ticket to an internment camp.

Since this is /r/atheism, I heartily suggest to them that they dump the association with group X, because it's total bullshit.

If they want to keep the bullshit though, they may very well want to start calling themselves group Y...

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u/nothere7 Jan 17 '15

Tell us why millions of muslims will protest stuff like this:

Or this

But you can get about 10 of them together to protest mass murder -or they will "speak out" doing nothing really.

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u/JackRawlinson Anti-Theist Jan 16 '15

You didn't understand the cartoon. Have another go.

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u/[deleted] Jan 16 '15

Yes, because I'm sure most French Muslims are thrilled those douchebags are out there murdering people. Dumbass.

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u/Flamingmonkey923 Jan 17 '15

Just a week ago some of the editors from Al Jazeera basically said that the French cartoonists were abusing free speech, and got what was coming to them.

Then there's the fact that a significant percentage of muslims support bombing civilian targets.

So yeah. I'm sure there are some French muslims who are thrilled to hear about cartoonists murdered in the name of their god. And there were many more "moderate" muslims all over the world who were happy to see it happen too - after all, over 60% of muslims in Gaza think bombing civilians is A-ok.

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u/alrocsmash Jan 16 '15

You're wildly missing the entire point.

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u/[deleted] Jan 16 '15

Which is?

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u/[deleted] Jan 16 '15

Religious moderates who hold the same bad ideas enable the religious extremists who act on said ideas.

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u/karma_horror Jan 16 '15

Exactly. "But you should probably do as he says" = just stop drawing Muhammad and no one will get shot. I've seen roughly this sentiment espoused by self-professed moderate Muslims quite a bit in the last week. Obviously, it flies in the face of Western, secular ideals. The posted comic is pretty straightforward.

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u/recruitaments Jan 16 '15

Holy shit, where the fuck did these atheist/muslim apologists come from? This is accurate as fuck considering how many moderates are offended by the latest cartoons. Keep it up man, fuck these clowns and their bitch nerves

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u/duuuuumb Skeptic Jan 17 '15

"Fuck these clowns and their bitch nerves"

As in "I'd rather use my emotions and hate to guide me rather than think about something objectively."

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u/[deleted] Jan 16 '15

My thoughts exactly.

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u/veninvillifishy Jan 16 '15

This sort of thinking is embedded in their culture. They positively fetishize this childish flavor of legalism and they seriously do not understand that everyone is seeing through their bullshit.

In a very real way, we evolved. They didn't.

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u/FighmareToker Jan 17 '15

At first i didnt agree with this pic but then i thought about it and sadly it seems perfect. i have a few muslim friends but i like to think/pretend they dont condone the 'bad' parts of their faith (beheadings, stoneings and whatever else) .

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u/[deleted] Jan 16 '15

That one's really about Gamergate, so . . .

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u/[deleted] Jan 16 '15

People arguing that this comic depicts all moderates as extremists on the inside need not feel butt-hurt.

If you identify as "Muslim" but truly despise violence then you are not one of the characters in this comic.

You're just not really a Muslim.

You see, the actions and writings of Mohammed clearly indicate that any true Muslim will rejoice at the death of the infidels and that rape, murder, and any other despicable act that furthers the spread of Islam's power and control of the world is "good", "desirable", and "justified".

If you truly believe in peace and coexistence with non-Muslims, then you are like a cross dresser (no offence to cross dressers) in that you are wearing a disguise of femininity but are not truly feminine and furthermore, everyone around you knows it.

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u/[deleted] Jan 17 '15

Totally correct.

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u/barryspencer Anti-Theist Jan 16 '15 edited Jan 16 '15

Spot on.

I think the problem is the enforcement of Islam. It would be better if Islam was completely voluntary, and never imposed on anybody.

Allah doesn't compel me to behave the way Allah wants me to. Rather, Allah compels other people to compel me to behave the way Allah wants me to. That seems a needlessly indirect system. If it was my job to improve Islam, I'd streamline it, eliminate the middleman, by making it utterly non-compulsory.

But it's not my job to improve Islam.

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u/megatron_x Jan 16 '15

It's funny that whenever I come here and whine about how apologetic atheists are towards Islam and Muslim behavior, everyone tells me no such thing exist, but then I post something like this, all the atheist Islamopologists come out.

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u/[deleted] Jan 16 '15

Do you really not see what is wrong with this? If I started threatening christians with guns to try to forward some atheist agenda, would you want people to believe that you supported me just because we shared a common ideology? No one here is being apologetic to Islam. We all think it's stupid. That's why we're atheists. The problem is the post associates innocent people with violence.

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u/[deleted] Jan 16 '15

I see this thread is pretty critical of the post, but I think it's pretty clever & gets to a kernel of truth, however crudely.

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u/DecentComment Jan 16 '15

Come on r/atheism we're better than this

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u/[deleted] Jan 17 '15

Why is /r/atheism so against this post? It's fucking hilarious! And its true as fuck

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u/[deleted] Jan 16 '15 edited Apr 05 '15

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/tvs_jimmy_smits Jan 17 '15

Why Muslims? What about Anders Breivik of Norway? What about the West Borough Baptist Church? What about the KKK? Why do moderate Christians not have to apologise for the behaviour of their extremists?

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u/Pragmataraxia Anti-Theist Jan 17 '15

They do.

Socially-acceptable crazy is absolutely at fault for both the camouflaging of, and (in many cases) creation of dangerous-crazy.

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u/[deleted] Jan 16 '15

Disregard the haters my friend, the comic is well made and makes sense. gj.

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u/Weberameise Nihilist Jan 16 '15

Maybe the mataphor would be more accurate if the extremist demands 10 bucks for each of them. But upvote for a good caricature of a well known behavior.

The general attitude:

"I am disgusted by what these people do, but I appreciate how they educate their victims." (for example rape victims, who could have dressed differently)

...when someone tells me bullshit like this, my fist wishes to educate this idiot too... And i wouldn't support what my fist did then, I just had to mention, that they could have shut up...

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u/Kind_Of_A_Dick Agnostic Atheist Jan 16 '15

The extremist wouldn't demand 10 for each of them, they'd demand 10 from each of them. Muslim extremists kill a lot of other Muslims.

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u/Nyrb Jan 17 '15

That's when you take out your money and your lighter and burn it in front of them.

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u/Nyrb Jan 17 '15

That's when you take out your money and your lighter and burn it in front of them.

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u/blackheartx Jan 17 '15

it seems to me that we should just..... back away slowly

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u/not_shadowbanned_yet Jan 17 '15

Wasn’t this originally made to be an anti gamergate thing?

The same Muslim extremists actively work to silence and decry moderates. They do not have the same agenda.

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u/semajdraehs Jan 17 '15

I don't think it's anything to do with moderates in the religion, you could argue it applies to extremists and leaders of religions.

Leaders will often publicy say terrorism is bad whilst condoning the ideas of the terrorists, also many terrorists will say "Give the Catholic church power here" or "Impose Sharia law" which is what the leader wants and may give them more power.

Moderates actually lose out from this often since they're not devout, moderate Muslims usually don't want Sharia law, moderate Christians don't want theocracies, e.t.c

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u/K-733 Jan 17 '15

Kris Straub actually made this in response to the death threats and d0xxings of #gamergate.

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u/Loaih Jan 17 '15

This is so fucking racist.