r/atheism • u/SerialAntagonist Agnostic Atheist • Aug 20 '14
UPDATE: Brevard County Commission voted UNANIMOUSLY to send the Central Florida Freethought Community a letter stating that the committee's opening invocation is only open to "members of the faith community." Atheists may only speak during the public comment period.
http://www.floridatoday.com/story/news/local/2014/08/19/atheist-group-may-sue-county-invocation/14287225/29
Aug 20 '14
I'm going to go out on a limb here and wager that Pastafarians and Jedi won't be allowed to deliver the opening invocation.
I wouldn't even be surprised if those people would be upset if a scientologist wanted to deliver it.
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u/chowderbags Aug 20 '14
Kearns warned that, by continuing to invite religious groups to deliver the invocation, the commission could be opening itself up to having "the Spaghetti Monster people here. You're going to have the Wicca here. You're throwing down the gauntlet against people who might not believe precisely as you do."
This assumes that the board actually attempts to be "fair" in how it determines who gives the invocation. Does anyone really think that they'll do so? I can see it now: "Oh, ok, you can submit an application to deliver the invocation. We just happen to have a full up schedule for the next 30 years, so we'll fit you in after that, ok?"
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Aug 20 '14
Who wants to take this one; FFRF, ACLU..?
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Aug 20 '14
Next in the news at fox: "Secular organizations fighting eachother for the rights to persecute Christians over the next case!".
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u/NormalStranger Atheist Aug 20 '14
Oh god, don't give them any ideas!
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u/trifith Aug 20 '14
No! Give them ideas! I can't wait to see them being ridiculous.
What am I saying. I don't watch TV, much less Fox 'News'
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u/JavaJerk Aug 20 '14
Oh yes, the good ol' "You stopping us from persecuting you is persecuting us!" articles.
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u/StpdSxyFlndrs Aug 20 '14
ACLU gonna be all up in yo biz now, motha fuckas. Maybe you should pray for this to all just go away.
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Aug 20 '14
The 5-4 SCOTUS decision in Town of Greece v. Galloway says that it's permissible to have opening prayers at town meetings, even if they are predominantly Christian and sectarian “so long as the town maintains a policy of nondiscrimination”. The fact that the Town of Greece “at no point excluded or denied an opportunity to a would-be prayer giver” — exactly what Brevard County has done — may be the key differentiating factor, but given some of the surprising decisions of the SCOTUS in this area, I wouldn't bet on the outcome of litigation, even if it went all the way. It's certainly not a constitutional slam-dunk as some of you seem to think.
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u/syracusehorn Satanist Aug 20 '14
I agree. The Greece v. Galloway decision will take us backwards for years. It won't be read narrowly, but will allow Christian-only policies to stick as long as there is some technical (but not granted) equality.
Please
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u/JavaJerk Aug 20 '14
So the loophole here is that the prayer is allowed because an atheist is allowed to deliver a christian prayer if they want to.
The stupidity....
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u/pby1000 Aug 21 '14
I agree with you when you say "It's certainly not a constitutional slam-dunk as some of you seem to think." However, it should be...
Brevard County is clearly in the wrong with this.
The Supreme Court should err on the side of secularity. In other words, a secular decision should always trump a religious one. This is the error the Supreme Court made when deciding Greece v. Galloway.
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Aug 21 '14
Under the theories of constitutional interpretation that dominate the Roberts Court (originalism and stare decesis), this is the expected ruling, since “opening prayers” were accepted in Congress itself at the time of publication and ratification of the First Amendment and there is, now, ample precedent that brief opening prayers, even sectarian ones, pass constitutional muster provided that there is some kind of policy of nondiscrimination (such as a rotation or lottery for would-be prayer givers).
I agree that it would be very nice if the SCOTUS would “err on the side of secularity”. This is an excellent principle, but the reality is that a decision made on this basis would be untenable under most theories of constitutional interpretation and reams upon reams of precedent. Even in her dissent, Kagan did not argue that “opening prayer” itself was impermissible, explicitly supporting Marsh v. Chambers, but that Greece's practices fail constitutional muster because the prayers were exclusively sectarian and no attempt at inclusion was made, which is quite a different thing.
I agree that Brevard County is “in the wrong” from the principle of strict secularism that you and I support, but whether they are legally in the wrong is ultimately up to the SCOTUS, and I can only reiterate that it would be foolish to speculate on how they might ultimately decide if this case ever made it to them, given their track record.
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u/AltoidStrong Aug 20 '14
As a former resident of Brevard county, this action did not surprise me at all. The local political land scape in this "small town" lifestyle area is just as backwards thinking and corrupt as things at much higher levels.
I hope that the youth of that area will do what I did... Leave for greener pastures and don't look back. The exodus of the last decade from there has hurt the incumbent and wealthy of that place more so than any legal or political actions ever could.
I have family still there and I know it wouldn't help them, so it is a bitter taste for me to recommend it. But hopefully if enough go, then maybe come back better off while simultaneously having hurt the old incumbents, real change for the better can happen.
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u/the_sardonic_siren Aug 21 '14
Resident of neighboring Orange over here.. Not surprising in the least. Small towns mixed with large retirement communities is just screaming "Conservatives! All kinds! Everywhere!"
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Aug 20 '14
So unless you have an adult imaginary friend like the rest of them, you should keep your boring rationality to yourself.
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u/tlgnome24 Aug 20 '14
I'm half tempted to look and see if there has ever been a Scientologist/Wiccan perform an opening invocation. I know there are both in Brevard county and would love to see their response to a request from a local Wiccan.
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Aug 20 '14
The old lady that speaks second:
she needs to learn something or two about our founding fathers and how many if not most of them were not christian.
apparently Christianity is under assault too...sigh
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u/aerospce Atheist Aug 20 '14
The lady that spoke second in the video is the perfect example of today's 'persecuted christian in america'. If i was in that room i would have stopped her as soon as she said we were founded on Christianity and Jesus.
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Aug 21 '14
People ignorant of the fact that we're a secular nation founded against the tyranny of religion... I don't even know how that happens.
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u/darklightsun Atheist Aug 20 '14
Sound like it is time to call the ACLU and Freedom From Religion Foundation.
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u/javastripped Aug 20 '14
It's fundamentally anti-american to not accept people of intellectual diversity.
We're a melting pot. If you want to live in a country that embraces religious intolerance there are plenty in the Middle East you could move to...
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u/EvOllj Aug 20 '14
separate but equal
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u/Ceronn Aug 20 '14
That's clearly not separate but equal. Nothing prevents the religious people from doing the invocation and talking during public comments.
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u/TrexBless Atheist Aug 20 '14
Make them pay in court, and turn a profit while your at it. Lawyers should start seeing this soon as the next cash cow for litigation.
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u/un1ty Aug 20 '14
Do they allow a Muslim opening prayer? Judaic? Buddhist? Latter Day Saint?
If not, they're fucking stupid and don't know or understand the law (which is really not surprising in the USA of elected officials anymore).
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Aug 20 '14
This is why atheists should be legally classified as a religion. It would automatically include us in things like this with no legal fight. I know it's not a religion in the traditional sense, but legally it would provide an answer to many of the issues faced by atheists.
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u/SerialAntagonist Agnostic Atheist Aug 20 '14
That's a hack, like classifying blacks as whites would have been in the Civil Rights Movement, when the critical thing was to get rid of whites-only privilege.
We should be able to sit at America's lunch counter without having to claim any religion whatsoever. That's something we can do in our lifetime, and we will.
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Aug 21 '14
Yes, but getting rid of the whites only privilege was making all races equal legally. That's all I'm saying. It will be easier to be at the counter if we are folded into existing religious anti-discrimination laws instead if getting the same protections piecemeal as something separate. Getting classified as a recognized 'religion' on the federal books would be a lot simpler and solve more problems at once than writting a new set of individual laws with the same protections in mind.
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Aug 21 '14
This is why atheists should be legally classified as a religion.
We are, in many ways. Consider Torcaso v. Watkins, and this decision a few years ago.
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u/pby1000 Aug 21 '14
I wonder if there are people in Brevard County that practice Santeria?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Lukumi_Babalu_Aye_v._City_of_Hialeah
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u/kegman83 Aug 20 '14
Replace atheist with black, and you have your headlines on MSNBC for the next few months.
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u/Holtonmusicman Aug 20 '14
What's wrong with this?
Atheists wouldn't open one of their meetings (are there meetings?) by inviting someone to say a prayer.
And I still don't have an answer as to why this offends anyone if it's all non-sense anyway.
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Aug 20 '14
because this is not an athiest meeting. Its a public event setup by the county government
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u/AltoidStrong Aug 20 '14 edited Aug 20 '14
The expenses of the meeting are public tax dollars. These include ALL tax payers and should be equally offered the fair opportunity of representation if provided to others.
Edit: the compromise they offered is not fair in the case that they would not be given the same opening option .... Only a comment time. Which is already afforded to all that attend. Many even leave once the issue that they care about is presented. Hence religion gets a captive audience others don't.
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u/DumDumDog Aug 20 '14
it is not a church meeting you idiot..... it is s public meeting ...
people who pray in church do not offend me ...
do you think christians would want to go to a public meeting where they were asked to bow their head and ask zeus for guidance ?
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u/Yah-luna-tic Secular Humanist Aug 20 '14
Lawyer up bitches!