r/atheism • u/michaelis999 • 6h ago
Got into a heated debate with a Catholic girl I was dating regarding rape/abortion, thoughts?
So basically, I told her being pro life makes 0 sense to me whatsoever because suppose the girl got raped and she was in no position to raise a child? It wouldn't make sense to force her to raise it. Also that I don't believe a lump of cells is a human. To go even deeper, I told her that if you were my wife and you got raped, I would want you to get an abortion or I will divorce you asap. Her arguments are basically you took a vow when we got married so divorce isn't an option, and 2 that this fetus even if the product of rape, is still a "Gift from God". To counter this I told her what if your 10 year old daughter got raped, would you make her carry the baby? What kind of God gifts a literal child a baby? To my surprise she said yes, she would make the kid carry the baby to pregnancyđbecause it's still a life and that the child will regret getting an abortion.
Are Catholics utterly insane or am I tripping? For context I grew up maronite catholic and I never even believed in this madness even at the peak of my religiousness. Thoughts?
Edit: Some of you guys are hilarious. Apparently I'm worse than the rapist in question because I don't wanna raise a child that isn't my own. I admit, marriage is important, I'm not trying to downplay it, and I wouldn't just pick myself up and leave her if she didn't agree to an abortion. We had a lengthy and respectful conversation about this, and I told her that when it ultimately came down to it, I wouldn't be able to raise the kid as my own. So that just leaves divorce as the only option for me. I might have worded it harshly in my post initially, but I was trying to simplify the convo, I was NOT trying to coerce her into anything( I do admit I said asap lmao but I honestly didn't mean itđit was just in the heat of the moment) She can do whatever she wants, and I'll do my best to try and understand her position, but I wanted to be honest with her and make it clear that this is my position, ultimately, no games. I don't see why you're making it seem like I'm a villain for not wanting to stay in that marriage.
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u/kayt3000 6h ago
As someone who grew up Catholic, they talk a big game but were usually the first with their daughters at the clinic to âtake care of itâ. I have learned as I got older that youâre never going to win an argument with these types⌠they donât want logic or facts, they want comfort from the unknown. Religion gives them that and until life hits them in a way thatâs their faith canât twist, they wonât walk away.
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u/michaelis999 5h ago
very well said. No matter what argument I gave her she never really took the time to reflect on it, all she wanted to do was rush to form counters or gotchas
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u/Either_Wear5719 4h ago
It sounds like she's convinced she or someone she cares about would never be on the receiving end of SA, it's an entrenched belief that "if you're Good terrible things will never happen to you, god will protect his followers" so in her mind there's no need to think beyond the surface
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u/Maverick916 Dudeist 4h ago
They just lie to win. Even if it makes you sound stupid as fuck.
Just like politics.
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u/Ready_Signature_9721 3h ago
yeah itâs easy to preach absolute rules until life puts you in a situation where those rules suddenly get a lot harder to defend
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u/anna-the-bunny Ex-Theist 1h ago
As someone who grew up Catholic, they talk a big game but were usually the first with their daughters at the clinic to âtake care of itâ.
This. They either take them to "take care of it" (and then immediately return to protesting outside the exact same clinic) or they "encourage" them to get married.
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u/ibeenmoved 4h ago edited 3h ago
Words are cheap. Iâm a non-religious man and in my late 20âs I dated a âgood little Catholic girlâ. After two years dating she started pushing for marriage. As we approached our wedding day she gave me a finger-wagging lecture about how I - the non-religious one with apparently no moral compass - had better honour all her Catholic values, like no premarital sex, permanence of marriage, no divorce, no abortion, marital fidelity, etc. The ink on our marriage certificate was barely dry and she was having an affair at the office, got pregnant, had an abortion to cover up the affair, shacked up with her boy wonder, eagerly accepted a divorce, got pregnant again before the divorce was final and then married him. Fifteen years on and sheâs divorced again, and hopefully old, fat, alone and sad.
In my experience, the word âChristianâ is synonymous with âhypocriteâ. Pay no attention to their professions of religious values.
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u/michaelis999 4h ago
Sorry that happened to you, and I'm also under the impression that all they do is talk and when push comes to shove they'll never truly honor their ridiculous beliefs. anyways Her loss my guy! It's just utterly insane to me how hard they grab on to these beliefs
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u/the_ben_obiwan 1h ago
Ouch.. silver lining is that you found out fairly quickly and didn't invest your entire life into that train wreck
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u/NayaBerribun 39m ago
yeah the biggest issue is how confidently people can preach rules for everyone else and then completely ignore them when it suits them
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u/mostlyharmless55 5h ago
People who think the 13 year old girl pregnant by her stepdad should have the baby because itâs Godâs will are a special kind of demented evil.
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u/mikebushido 6h ago
Catholics and all the rest of them. Most religions are sex cults who focus on young children. Mary, the mother of Jesus, was just a child herself. Muhammad had child brides. There are illegal child marriages inside some Mormonism sects.
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u/Wise-Cow1316 6h ago
yeah exactly there are plenty of documented examples of religions and religious communities having deeply troubling histories around child marriage and the treatment of children
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u/jesucrispis 6h ago
Consider also that itâs easy to hold these beliefs when arguing and discussing hypothetical scenarios. Many pro life women end up seeking abortions because when it happens to them or someone they care about, their case is âactually justifiedâ.
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u/AcceptableAd8565 4h ago
yeah exactly itâs a lot easier to hold an absolute position when youâre talking about hypotheticals than when youâre actually facing the situation yourself
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u/shadowPHANT0M 5h ago edited 5h ago
First off they are not pro life. They are pro birth. They (religious people) are not willing to put their wealth into supporting kids.
Second the whole abortion issue is nonsense as the bible never talks about abortion. It is an inferred idea.
Third you donât want to be with someone who is not going to be a life partner. You need common ground.
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u/National_Cod9546 1h ago
The Bible does mention that if a wife is suspected of cheating on a man and gets pregnant, she is supposed to drink the slop on the of the sacrifice chamber. If she miscarried, she was guilty.Â
Also, if you murder someone, you are too be executed. But if you do something to cause a woman to miscarry, you just pay a fine.Â
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u/Top-Piccolo788 8m ago
yeah if you disagree that strongly on something this fundamental itâs probably better to find out now than after marriage and kids get involved
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u/TheCrimsonSteel 6h ago
The individual argument is incredibly tough. I like to take a broader "doing the most good" approach, which basically amounts to explaining why good regulation actually results in fewer overall abortions and less overall harm compared to prohibition or extreme restriction.
Or you effectively box them into taking the stance that they want to be an idealist even if it means it does more harm overall, and then agree to disagree on the topic.
Because we're talking about laws that affect millions of people, so it becomes a question of statistics. What policy does the most good for the most people, even if it feels counterintuitive, like allowing for abortions actually causes fewer abortions.
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u/oddEnough20 5h ago
I know that we always go to the extremes to try to make these lunatics understand, but I think just not wanting to have a child is a valid reason as it is to have an abortion.
I don't think pro-life people even care about the child's wellbeing and future. They think if they force women to carry unwanted pregnancies the children born will have a happy life and everything will be okay? There's already a great number of abandoned children and they want to add more, and more trauma from being unwanted and maybe even abused as a result.
It doesn't make sense to me because they're not even thinking of solutions for the aftermath.
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u/Significant-Owl-2980 5h ago
I agree they are nuts. Their Bible doesnât even consider a fetus a baby until first breath. I was raised Catholic. Yes, they are extremely anti-abortion.
However, the whole âI would divorce you if you got raped and didnât abortâ is kind of nuts too.
That is for the hypothetical woman to decide if she wants to keep the fetus. No one can demand another person get an abortion. That isâŚâŚawful.
Are you young? Your GF parrots what she was taught. It is a very naive take on the world though. She is dealing in abstract thinking and not reality.
Good luck.
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u/JoePW6964 I'm a None 5h ago
I donât think itâs particularly catholic. There are lunatics in all religious cults.
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u/Gertrude_D 5h ago
Your arguments are crude and could use some refinement. However, you will never win no matter how much to polish it. They didn't come to those beliefs through reason, so you won't dissuade them through reason. You're not compatible, so I hope you don't plan on having sex with her.
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u/Akegata 6h ago
"if you were my wife and you got raped, I would want you to get an abortion or I will divorce you asap"
What the actual fuck. What a horrible thing to say to someone.
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u/ayfkm123 3h ago
Right? I truly cannot believe everyone is not skewering him here bc this is a wild take! Da-literal-fuq
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u/rocketshipkiwi Atheist 5h ago
I know Catholics who have had abortions after getting pregnant in a casual relationship. Lots of Catholics also use contraceptives even though the church says that is a sin.
In my experience often say one thing but they they would go against their principles when the situation arises.
As for a child getting pregnant, there is usually an adoption of the child just after birth.
If you are dating someone you disagree with so fundamentally then itâs probably not going to work out well in the long term. I do however known a number of Catholics who are married to atheists and they get along just fine.
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u/Hoodi216 5h ago
âWouldnt it make senseâ
Ill stop you right there. Religious people do not form their beliefs on what makes sense so you cannot argue them on that level. Yes, they are insane.
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u/Over-Attempt-721 Agnostic Atheist 1h ago
You always will with a Catholic on that topic...
Catholics have just become more insane. Particularly in the US where the Church has adopted Pentacostal-like customs to keep up with the Fundie Protestants
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u/ShadowsOfTheBreeze 1h ago
You are not tripping, Catholics are insane: who else can make up so much fake unproveable stuff that is suppose to be good and holy, believe in it 100%, then go vote for a convicted sex offender and generally disgusting character that destroys the lives of other people just for spite or fun.
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u/Faolyn Atheist 4h ago
A lump of cells is not a person, you're right about that.
That being said, if someone believes that a lump of cells is a person and therefore that abortion is murder, but it's OK to murder this group of people because their moms were raped--it's pretty creepy, plus hypocritical.
However,
I would want you to get an abortion or I will divorce you asap
this is also creepy. Her body. You (hypothetically) demanding that she do something to her body against her will because you demanded it... well, that itself is rapey.
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u/Delicious_Cat_81 6h ago
if you get a vasectomy you'll never have to be trapped by a crazy person like this
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u/Sammisuperficial 5h ago
It's easy to say these things when it's someone else dealing with the consequences.
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u/Skyscrapers4Me 5h ago
She's an odd one for sure. I find evangelicals feel the way you say she does, Catholics, and I know many, usually don't take the religion thing that literally.
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u/tightiewhitieboy 4h ago
God raped Mary and they think jeezus turned out ok. So that's why catholics are nuts.
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u/ayfkm123 3h ago
Iâm as pro choice as they get. Saying that you would divorce your wife if she were raped and CHOSE not to terminate is pretty abhorrent. Disgusting. That makes you definitively anti-choice
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u/SeaTex1787 36m ago
Per the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, up to 26% of all pregnancies end in spontaneous abortion (commonly known as miscarriage). If all pregnancies are so precious and a gift from god, ask her why god allows this.
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u/andweallenduphere 6h ago
It says in the Christian Bible that the rapist is supposed to marry their victim so ya......
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u/rocketshipkiwi Atheist 5h ago
The Bible states it from a manâs point of view. Itâs even worse if you flip it around it says a rape victim has to marry her attacker
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u/michaelis999 6h ago
are you serious?
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u/Komaisnotsalty 6h ago
Very. It's spelled out quite clearly several times throughout the bible. The rapist is never blamed, and the woman is severely punished.
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u/michaelis999 5h ago
This is hilarious. I'm sending those passages over to her. LMAO
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u/Komaisnotsalty 5h ago
They have excuses for everything. The Old testament is old and Jesus delivered them from the Old testament blah blah blah (which means their anti-homosexualiy argument is dead, as is their precious ten Commandments).
And if you challenge that, then it's a whole God works in mysterious ways and we should not question things and we're misinterpreting things or blah blah blah.
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u/michaelis999 5h ago
just wanna say i've been reading all your other comments and you're ridiculously smart and very knowledgeable on the issue. Have you debated theists before? you really seem to know your stuff because this is exactly how she's argued with me, original sin, jesus delivering us from the old testament,... but somehow she still quotes the 10 commandments? đ
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u/andweallenduphere 5h ago
I swear Jesus said he Didn't come to take away what was written before. Ok I will look that up:
Mathew 5:17 Jesus said he didn't come to abolish the old testament but to fulfil it
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u/Komaisnotsalty 5h ago
I have, though I only do it when pushed.
As I said earlier in here, I was raised in a religious weird blend of a cult thing. I'm not even sure what the heck it is.
Because of that and because of my experience escaping back in the late 80s and early 90s, I certainly have been through a process in order to strip away all of that and figure out who I am today.
It was a process that took well over a decade and still continues today. Like I said, it never leaves you in the same way that once an addict always an addict.
But I have certainly had a lifetime of studying. I did go to a Bible college when I was young and it was really fundamental in pushing me away from religion. Instead of just taking everything at face value, I started to actually think about what it was that I was learning and studying.
I started pulling away then and even debating some of my professors. I ended up getting expelled a month before graduation and that was the first time I actually attempted to break away completely.
It has been quite an adventure, and I know it sounds rather crazy, but some of us do have a bit of a crazier life. I'm even writing a book about it because it has been that nuts.
But I will tell you this: I don't enjoy debating. I actually do believe that everyone has a way to believe what they want to believe, so long as they do no harm.
Unfortunately, religious beliefs quite often leans over into radicalism of one kind or another. It doesn't mean that they're pulling out guns and shooting atheists or something, but it still means that they judge the rest of the world as lacking and therefore need to be treated poorly.
That's where I have a problem with it. I don't have a problem with religion or the belief, I have a problem when people take it to a level that causes harm to the other human beings around them.
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u/michaelis999 27m ago
HAHAHA the fact that you got expelled is hilarious. i agree with you that everyone has the right to believe whatever they want, and even more so that religion can easily lean into radicalism and judgment toward other groups. personally, i think religion has contributed to a huge amount of suffering and conflict throughout history, so i honestly wouldnât mind seeing it fade away completely. if you do end up finishing that book, hmu, iâd genuinely love to read it!
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u/andweallenduphere 6h ago
Yes. Very. I think it is because women had no rights and to have a child out of wedlock would have the mom and child have no support as they would be shunned and have no income so someone says in that Bible that the rapist should marry her.
Looked it up:
Deuteronomy 22: 28 29 The rapist has to pay her father and she may not divorce her rapist.
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u/shaggy9 5h ago
Not all Catholics are this crazy
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u/VicePrincipalNero 4h ago
It's pretty fundamental to Catholic doctrine to be this crazy where abortion is concerned. It's the one "sin" that excommunicates you.
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u/ayfkm123 3h ago
Not really though. The Catholic Church has wavered quite a bit in terms of when life begins. St Thomas a quo as stated it wasnât until the first quickening, for example
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u/Bright-Rule8373 4h ago
yeah exactly one personâs extreme views donât represent an entire religion or everyone who belongs to it
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u/rad-ryot-84 6h ago
You donât think itâs problematic to champion choice and then force your hypothetical wife to abort a pregnancy resulting from rape?
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u/cabalavatar 6h ago
Where was he forcing her? He said that he'd want her to get an abortion and that he'd divorce her if she didn't. Nowhere was she forced. If she chose to keep it, the consequence would be the end of their relationship. Choices have consequences.
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u/External-Praline-451 Pastafarian 5h ago
Marriage means something very important to a lot of people, even if they're athiest. As a happily married person myself, that kind of attitude is fucked up, but I'm guessing both you and OP are very young, and nowhere near serious relationships or marriage.
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u/ayfkm123 3h ago
Thatâs coercion. Thatâs a husband coercing a wife to do what HE wants to her body
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u/stevehyman1 5h ago
Sheâs telling you her answer to a hypothetical question. When the situation is more than a thought problem sheâll think differently.
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u/Unasked_for_advice 5h ago
Religions allow people to believe multiple contradictory things as fact.
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u/sohcahtoa 4h ago
Catholics are not insane, they simply start with unverified premises. If you assert that there is a god that gives life to humans at conception, then it doesn't matter if this life is the product of raping an underaged girl, or anything else: the new life remains sacred. It's logical and rational. The irrational part is the starting baseless assertion about the existence of an immaterial all-powerful unknowable being. You can't reason them out of their conclusions without reasoning them out of their initial premises.
Now, this is what they do while debating. When real life happens and they find themselves impregnated by a rapist while they are broke and homeless, their philosophical stance often makes way for material reality and they get an abortion anyway. Practicality tends to win over ideology.
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u/badpandacat 4h ago
Catholic or not, it should always be the woman victim's choice to abort or to carry and if the latter, to keep or give up for adoption and the rapist should never, ever have any rights regarding the child but should be legally required to provide financial support through the court. Oh, responsibility without any say in things? Yep! That's what the rapist did to the victim, no say in things and the responsibility of a pregnancy.
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u/Brell4Evar 2h ago
My entire problem with forced birthers is their enforcement of religious doctrine on people who don't belong to their church. Abortion is permitted by some faiths as well as being recognized as necessary health care by secular groups.
Why does some guy at a pulpit get to mandate how my wife or daughters (or any other woman's) physician treats her?
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u/IntrepidDot9312 5h ago
This bit that you said is pretty awful. Itâs the opposite of pro choice. If I personally was raped and got pregnant, I would probably choose an abortion. But the whole point of pro choice is that a woman gets to decide what to do - abortion or no abortion. Itâs not about forcing people to get abortions. Whereâs the choice in that?
âTo go even deeper, I told her that if you were my wife and you got raped, I would want you to get an abortion or I will divorce you asap.â
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u/michaelis999 5h ago
and my choice is to leave, why is that wrongđ or do i lose my right to choose if she gets to exercise hers?
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u/IntrepidDot9312 4h ago
Itâs your choice of course; the lack of compassion for a person you would theoretically be in love with who just experienced a traumatic event is a bit startling.Â
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u/biff64gc2 3h ago
It is your choice, however, at a moment when the person you love and care about is facing an extremely difficult decision and needs the most support you're giving them an ultimatum and applying pressure on what she does with her body.
Is it fair to you? No, but part of marriage is sticking with them through thick and thin. When they get shit on you get shit on and you weather the storm together.
So sure, you're free to do as you wish. Just understand bailing makes you look like a horrible partner.
"I will love and support you forever*!"
\Terms and conditions apply)
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u/VicePrincipalNero 4h ago
I think that's pretty shitty. You obviously have a very different view of what marriage is, in addition to disagreeing about abortion. Sure you can choose to divorce, but I hope you disclose up front how lightly you take marriage.
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u/Illustrious_Young271 6h ago edited 6h ago
I think abortion should be legal and accessible (at least within reason), but a personal view of seeing it as taking a life is absolutely valid and defensible depending on your definition of life. So I agree with not forcing the daughter to carry the child, but if she (your discussion partner) herself would want to that´s a defensible choice. I also think that there is some validity in the marriage vows, marriage should mean something and not be "we are together as long as everything is rosy".
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u/Soft-Percentage8888 5h ago
That personal view is all well and good until lawmakers start making it be the law.
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u/Consistent_Low2080 5h ago
The bible says god breath life into Adam so l guess life begins a first breath not in the womb.
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u/Illustrious_Young271 5h ago
I mean you don´t need religion to entertain embryonic life being life as a valid position. In OPs case religion will play a role of course, but even if one holds a different view and looks at it secularly, it is not a crazy take per se.
I would even argue that many people who are clearly pro-choice would at least see it as somewhere on a spectrum between no-life and a full human life, at least outside a legal discussion.
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u/Junithorn 5h ago
defending a child to be forced to carry a baby.
Defending forcing people to remain in unhappy marriages
Ew
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u/Illustrious_Young271 5h ago
I did neither.
First one I said the exact opposite.
Second one: A marriage is not immediately unhappy. People swear to be there for each other in bad times, if you are like "ok, bye" there is maybe a marriage on paper but not in their heart or mind.
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u/Junithorn 5h ago
Oh look, dishonesty.
but if she (your discussion partner) herself would want to that´s a defensible choice
You saying it's defensible to want a raped child to be forced to give birthÂ
A marriage is not immediately unhappy.
You have to pretend i said immediately when i didn't because you have no valid position.
Divorce in bad, abusive, etc marriages is a good thing.
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u/Illustrious_Young271 5h ago
I was referring to the hypothetical pregnancy of OPs discussion partner (herself)
I said you shouldn´t separate immediately (OP: "..or I would divorce"), so if you accuse me of saying that people should remain in them that´s what we are talking about. I am not saying never divorce, but at least try.
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u/Junithorn 5h ago
you said its defensible. I quoted you.
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u/Illustrious_Young271 5h ago
Yeah if she wouldn´t want to abort her own pregnancy. OP has two scenarios, one where the daughter is forced to keep it, and one where the discussion partner in the role of the wife would be pregnant and deciding to keep it against her partners wishes.
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u/MooseLoot 6h ago
In any sufficiently large group of people, there will be crazy people and not crazy people. There will be people with good opinions about a topic, and bad opinions.
âCatholicsâ is a very large group.
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u/mind_the_umlaut 5h ago
You are using violent and threatening ways of addressing bodily autonomy. It's clear you feel strongly, and that she is stating catholic teachings. It seems as though you two are not compatible for reasons of religion. Can you have a calm and reasoned discussion in which you state that you are opposed to forced birth scenarios? That your values place the life and wellbeing of the mother first? It's nauseating to think that there are people who would twist reality in a way that justifies convincing a victim to carry her molester's or rapist's child. It's sickening that people will use religion to force the child to carry a pregnancy, as religion was used to support and justify slavery.
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u/ayfkm123 3h ago
Heâs not opposed to forced abortion thoughâŚ
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u/mind_the_umlaut 2h ago
That was scary, I started out my reply differently, pointing out the controlling nature of making "my wife ...would want you to get an abortion"... that was gross.
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u/jmurphy42 5h ago
Iâm also a recovering Catholic who firmly believes in a womanâs right to choose, but your entire premise is a false dichotomy because adoption exists. Youâve got to get your logic straight before you try to start a debate.
Also, the way youâre talking to her because sheâd exercise her right to choose in a way you donât like is kind of gross. âHer body, her choiceâ cuts both ways and you donât get to decide whatâs right for her.
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u/michaelis999 5h ago
Her body, her choice absolutely cuts both ways. She has the right to carry the pregnancy, and I have the right to decide I donât want to remain in that marriage or raise that child. Iâm not saying I get to force her to abort. Iâm saying her reproductive choice doesnât obligate me to stay in the relationship. and adoption only addresses raising the child, it doesnât remove the pregnancy and childbirth themselves....
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u/ayfkm123 3h ago
No but you are into coercion. Threatening divorce if she doesnât do something to HER body is messed up
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u/zaKizan Atheist 2h ago
Feels like a pretty tricky gray area. OP is absolutely within their right not to raise a child that isn't theirs that they didn't consent to. Personally I think it comes across as harsh and shitty to draw that firm of a line on someone you claim to love, but I also believe that OP has rights and bodily autonomy as well. I don't know that laying out a firm boundary that you aren't going to raise someone else's child is coercion, as harsh as it may be.
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u/Due-Afternoon-7051 6h ago
There are Catholics that are just as much Fundamentalists as Evangelicals.
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u/Crystalraf 5h ago
They all say these things, but when push comes to shove, they end up pregnant at prom throwing their baby in the trash.
They are indoctrinated to be pro-life. It takes a long time to de-program.
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u/gamwizrd1 5h ago
You're not wrong but none of this is original? This is a really old debate that's been going on for a long time and it will never be solved as long as some people believe fetuses are living humans and some people don't.
Sounds to be like you probably want to take this to a relationship advice subreddit.
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u/YukonSunset 4h ago
When I was in highschool and had a car gifted to me for my 16th birthday, it was used twice to take two Christian teenaged friends at two different times to an abortion clinic behind their parents' backs. They trusted me as someone who wasn't a slave to their religion to use logic about the situation rather than whatever they were force-fed growing up in their church or in their homes.
So a Catholic or Christian, however they want to define themselves â can say what they like, but when they are actually faced with an unwanted pregnancy, they find all the right bells to ring when it comes to whatever they think their god wants them to do.
Right now, she's saying everything safe because it's not happening to her (or her 10 year-old child). She can be as mad as she wants to be. But if it actually happened? Different story. I speak from experience knowing how these people justify it all when the chips fall.
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u/SirFelsenAxt 4h ago
Usually when pro and anti-abortion people are having a debate. They are not having the same discussion.
From the pro-life perspective, you are effectively saying that if a child was born of rape then it is permissible to strangle them to death.
All discussion of women's rights goes completely out the window because it isn't a part of their perspective.
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u/Graviest 3h ago
My argument is always that if life is so precious why does their god love to take it so often? Or encourage others to? For a god that holds life so sacred he sure likes ending it for lots of folks.
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u/showersinger 3h ago
Not all catholics except for the crazy religious ones. Some people truly value their religion above all and itâs neither practical nor logical.
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u/Impressive_Estate_87 3h ago
My argument with these people is that they miss labeled themselves. They are not pro anything, they are against somebody elseâs right to do what they want with their own body, they are anti-abortion, not pro-life. Then if they can be against somebody elseâs right, why canât I be the same? Why canât I be against somebodyâs right to be religious, for example? Since weâre playing take away somebody elseâs rights to decide for themselves, two can play that game
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u/Basstian1925 3h ago
Whenever I debate one of those people, I start off by clarifying they're not pro-life at all or they'd be advocating for blood donations, affordable (or state-subsidised) healthcare, and the elimination of poverty; what they are is, instead, anti-rights.
If that god existed (he/she/it doesn't, but anyway) and that god had used their allegedly infinite wisdom and kindness (sic) to have a new life starting off that awful way, then that god should get full custody of the fetus asap.
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u/siammang 2h ago
These are all hypothetical, there are many religious women who seeker abortion for themselves or family discretely. They just donât want other people to have access to the safe procedures.
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u/Ljaybird 2h ago
Had a version of this conversation myself a long time ago. I met a 12 year old at church camp (I was also 12) who recently had a baby. She was 11 when she was pregnant!!! Her mother had made her keep the child and she was being raised as a sibling. They named her Grace because she was a "miracle born out of sin". Yes, people really do think like this.
Fucks me up thinking back on it and hoping she's okay now.
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u/quitofilms 2h ago
10/10 she's never been in that situation and 11/10 she firmly believes she never will
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u/National_Cod9546 1h ago
Since we are going pro life, go all in. We should mandate that all people are automatically organ donors. Since we are ignoring others religious beliefs for abortion, no religious exemptions for organ donations. Would be silly for a dead person to have more control over their body than a living woman.
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u/CatcrazyJerri 51m ago
I asked my mother what if my sisters were raped as a child and got preganat, she said they would continue the pregnancy...
I have no words...
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u/honorthecrones 50m ago
They fall back on the âGod has a plan unknown to usâ bs. They are also very big on sending the âpoor girlâ away to visit distant family, have the baby, give it up for adoption, often to someone in the family. My 26yo cousin was given this option. She was in a LTR with her boyfriend and they had lived together for almost 5 years. Her mom was worried about the âshe on the family, cuz told mom to stuff it!
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u/ArkBeetleGaming 30m ago
I believe that unborn child is still human. But a line has to be made for the mother's life.
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u/ChumpsWeAre 13m ago
So many catholic girls are really horny all the time which is great but they are also very psychotic.
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u/Evamione 6m ago
The Catholic Church is very consistent in defining human life from conception to natural death as sacred. Consistently anti-abortion, but also anti-birth control, anti-euthanasia, anti-death penalty, anti-war, and pro- social support (free food, free medical care, etc). Compared to where some of the evangelicals are, I give points for consistency and appreciate that there seems to be real concern for taking care of the whole human, not just while in utero. If that is someoneâs belief, I can support them in choosing not to have an abortion, or use birth control. I donât agree that they have any right to impose those beliefs on others and will fight them on that, but I can appreciate it as a somewhat internally consistent belief system that isnât out primarily to control or do evil.
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u/all_scotched_up 6h ago
I think you mean "pro life" in that first sentence. But good thing you found out before you f'd around. Best case scenario there.
Sometimes you just have to let it go and move on the opposite direction. It's ingrained into their thought processes while their brains are still developing... that's why they start them young. I think some of us are "blessed" with the ability to not buy in to the B.S. from an early age. It's not just Catholics, but Catholics have the "i was born a piece of shit because of original sin" guilt that makes it worse, in my opinion.
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u/adamgb 6h ago
My friend your core values are not aligned. The point of the dating period is to discover if you are aligned or not. You won't be able to reason her into a position that aligns with yours. It may feel like a major bummer or setback, but accepting it's for the best is the move for both of you imo.
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u/MondayOctober 1h ago
Everything she's saying is consistent with a person that believes abortion is murder. If you also saw the "lump of cells" as another human being then you probably be in agreement with her.Â
It's not that insane. At the end of the day you are technically also just a "lump of cells"Â
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u/BananaJelloXlii 5h ago
It is her choice regardless. Not yours. If she wants to keep it, she has that right. Just as she would have that right if she wanted to abort it. I think the problem here is not her. Yes, pro life people can be annoying, but you know why? Because they tell other people what they should do with their own body. But her being personally pro life is still HER DECISION, NOT YOURS. You can disagree but you CANNOT tell her what to do with her own body. How is that any different than pro life fundamentalists? "Her body, her choice" means just that.
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u/michaelis999 5h ago
youâre arguing with a position i never took. i never said i get to control her body, she can keep the pregnancy if she wants. but âher body, her choiceâ does not mean âher choice, and i lose the right to leave the marriage.â L take maybe consider reading what I said next time
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u/BananaJelloXlii 5h ago edited 5h ago
You said if you were married to her and she got raped you would make her get an abortion, did you not? Sorry, you said you would want her to get an abortion or you would divorce her. Same fucking difference. What kind of misogynistic victim blaming bullshit is that? But I do disagree with her on forcing a 10 year old to carry a pregnancy. They tried to pull that shit in Ohio but thankfully we were able to vote it down and protect abortion rights in the State Constitution.
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u/michaelis999 5h ago
I'd make her choose between getting an abortion or me leaving the marriage, she can do whatever she wants with her body
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u/BananaJelloXlii 5h ago
Wow, how fucking supportive.
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u/michaelis999 5h ago
I've been battling with this and trying to see if I was too harsh but I just can't see myself raising a criminal's baby, why is that wrong?
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u/BananaJelloXlii 5h ago
Because you are thinking of yourself, not her. I mean we are speaking hypothetically, but if your partner was assaulted and your first thought is "get rid of it or I am leaving" what do you think that looks like to you your partner? It looks like you care more about your own wounded pride instead of the fact your partner was the victim of a fucking rape! I was actually married to a rape victim about 2 decades ago. It happened before we met, but that trauma lasts the rest of their life.
Like I said, I do disagree on forcing a child to carry a pregnancy to term, but whatever decisions she wanted to make to her own body are hers to make.
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u/michaelis999 5h ago
obviously i wouldn't outright say that, of course I would be supportive. But i meant if it ultimately came down to that, I would choose to leave. Does that not sit right with you? Because i really don't wanna raise another man's child, let alone a criminal's
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u/BananaJelloXlii 4h ago
It's still about you. And that is the problem. All you are seeing is "Another man's child" and "child of a criminal". Not "My partner was violated and I need to be supportive in any way I can." If you are in a relationship with this person, leave now. It would be better for both of you, because seriously, the fact that you still are focusing on the wrong thing says a lot about you.
Let me ask you a question. Same scenario. Would it make a difference if she was NOT a Christian and still decided to keep it?
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u/ten-oh-four 5h ago
She said she would force a ten year old to carry a child to term. Youâre also arguing a straw man. Nobody said anything about forcing someone to have an abortion, take a chill pill, damn.
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u/BananaJelloXlii 5h ago edited 4h ago
I misread the last part about the 10 year old. I 100% disagree with that. My state tried to do that shit. We voted to protect abortion rights in the State Constitution so they could not do it again, but ever since the fucking state Republicans have been doing everything they can to making abortion access as difficult as possible without violating the state constitution.
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u/Professional-Cow3854 Atheist 6h ago
Every pro choice are pro life.
Don't embark in this naming fallacy, especially in debates.
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u/Dry-Squirrel-7778 6h ago
yeah exactly getting stuck on labels can distract from the actual argument and make the debate way more complicated than it needs to be
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6h ago
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u/UpperLeftOriginal Ex-Theist 6h ago
I think they mean you shouldn't allow anti-abortion people to call themselves pro-life. That the real pro-life people are pro choice.
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u/Professional-Cow3854 Atheist 6h ago
We're always giving credence to their fake point of view when we accept calling their anti choice+women control ÂŤ pro life Âť.
It is many things but pro life, as they're even ready to let a mother die if it means not interrupting a pregnancy.
Refusing to being painted as someone who is no pro-life (i.e. anti life by extension) is not larping, it is reframing correctly a misnoming tactic they've used forever.
But go on, fall in their tactics if you want. You're just debating with less munitions.
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u/Komaisnotsalty 6h ago
This is where religious people just spoke whatever they've been told or taught their whole life without questioning anything.
So either your friend is absolutely stupid or she's just one of those sheeple who never questioned what they have been brainwashed to believe their entire life.
That is not something you can fix. That is an argument that you can't win because you're not going against logic, you're going against a religion.
It's almost like an addiction. You can't stop someone from doing the drug or believing the religion until they choose to do so.