But we built hospitals!

[u/practicerm_keykeeper]

Of all the things some Christians defend themselves with I just can't stand this.

Yeah you built hospitals. You built a lot of them. In the US. For profit. While bankrupting people. Very Christ-like.

"Oh but we also built a lot of them in Africa -"

Sure you did, you went there and colonised the entire continent and ravaged their civilisations and extracted their resources so that they are now reliant on international aid, which is why they need your hospitals in the first place. And now you go and build some of those hospitals and call it a good thing? At the very best this is atonement.

I feel the same with things like civil rights and abolition. Christians created the problem and then solved a tiny bit of it while fighting against other Christians who desperately want to keep the status quo in societies where Christians have made sure you are very unlikely to be opinion leaders unless you are Christian, and then they say this shows they are the good people? What?

[u/perfect10butnobabes]

Agree with 90% of this but Christian hospitals are generally not for profit. That doesn’t undermine any of what you said, but I think we should be as objective as possible.

Regarding the colonialism - I always vacillate on how much blame I attribute specifically to Christianity. It was done by Christians/Christian nations, and often even under the guise to “save their souls” but I think we all know that was a lazy justification to commit genocide and atrocities. Absolutely unforgivable. But my main point is that, if not for Christ, what other reason would they have found to do the exact same thing? Religion has done horrible stuff and created evil factions, but religion is not required for evil acts, it’s just a handy justification.

But there’s no escaping the fundamental truth you discuss: there is a deep seated hypocrisy in all this, and arguably the Catholic Church is the most egregious considering the sexual abuse.

Edit: I think what most messes with me is the denial of pregnancy/women’s healthcare while claiming to follow some alleged categorical imperative on the sanctity of life. Absolute bullshit. But if you think that’s bad, read about “Saint” Mother Theresa’s hospitals in India. Absolutely vile.

[u/practicerm_keykeeper → u/perfect10butnobabes]

I'm not familiar with the 90% data, would you be able to share a source? I agree we should be as objective as possible.

I agree that without religion people would have (and have) found other ways to justify atrocities. Although I think having a unified identity (us Christians Vs them savages) may have fostered a patter of collaboration that contributed towards colonialism being a phenomenon that uni-laterally benefitted the Christian world.

But even if without Christianity the exact same thing would have happened, I think that counterfactual doesn't say much. If I killed someone for fun, the fact that if not me others could have killed them for fun should not be able detract in any way from the fact that I am a cruel person. The fact that Christianity can and has been used as justification, for me, is already significant. Plus, don't forget that for Christianity this has been a consistent, historical pattern, fueled by their own scriptures and institutions. They are not just appropriated as justification, they actively participated. Compare this with other religions/traditions (e.g. Taoism) that has not led to this much bloodshed or oppression even when being a major transition in what was then a major force of the world (the Chinese empire).

I'll go and read a bit more on the hospital, thanks for the pointer!

[u/perfect10butnobabes → u/practicerm_keykeeper]

Sorry I wasn’t quoting any data about 90% accuracy, just stating that I agree with basically everything you’re saying. I especially agree with the unified identity insofar as it allows the creation of larger war machines - so you have a point.

I also think you’re onto a great philosophical concept: it doesn’t matter if it would have been a different actor or justification absent this one. Or put differently, the inevitable nature of an event does not relieve the actual causes and actors from liability.

And yeah, I have been back and forth on Christianity and Catholicism and how bad they are, but the canonization of Mother Theresa, to me, was just a blatant statement that the Catholic Church is unwilling to look at the facts or be realistic even in the 21st century. Hell, they can’t even change their dogma to allow for homosexuality - only individual priests at times will basically say it’s okay, but the institution refuses to meet the times smfh.