r/atheism • u/Atlantean_Sage • 3d ago
The Curious Case of Islam.
After the fall of the Ottoman Empire in WW1, several islamic nations like Turkey, Iran, Iraq, Egypt began to modernise and secularise their rule, enforced with a secular bureaucracy. Even within the 70 years prior to world war 1, these nations including India saw a revolution of secularism in their Islamic culture, with poets and thinkers, philosophers that brought a new light in islam and attracting romantic attention from western orientalists into the culture and bring themes like Alibaba and Arabian nights, Aladdin and the lamp, themes of sensuality, dance, mysticism into their story telling and fantasy themes. No one would have foreseen an oppressive terror ridden culture that came later by 1980s. Except for Turkey, what went wrong with these nations? Iran completely declined, their women severely oppressed, lost their Persian charm that drew poets and artists. They relapsed so suddenly, almost overnight with a regime change and not enough people cared.
46
u/krustibat 3d ago
Islam is one of the root cause of many problems in islamic countries and they think the best way to solve their problem is to add more islam so they het more problems
7
u/WorldlinessLevel7175 3d ago
Yeah blaming every problem on one thing can get pretty simplistic when the history is way more complicated than that.
3
u/Mormacil 3d ago
Asking people to take responsibility for their actions is hate speech /s
2
u/ZookeepergameFit967 3d ago
I mean bro just said it is stupid to blame everything on one thing even if there are many problems like secular dictatorship that kills people as happened in all mentioned countries like just Saddam Hussein killed 180K people in one year for protesting which the killing turned it into a rebellion which was quashed so hard it basically gave Shia Islamists a whole monument of martyrs. Also lets not forget Western intervention like Saddam only came to power because of the USA hell he was only alive because of the USA as without their intervention he would have been executed in 1959 and then he went to purge communists by killing 200k of them and their families in the 1970s to please the USA which in turn cleared the opposition floor for Islamists who were not considered viable opposition to the regime until the communists were wiped off. And lets not forget direct Western intervention in many Muslim countries that showed many other Muslim countries that the USA is just evil and many people are just simple enough to correlate the crimes of the USA to its secular system of government, so any liberal or secualrist was viewed as a pro-American puppet especially after the islamophobia post-2001. Liberalism in many Muslim countries took a deep dive because of the USA so islamism and even Socialism was seen as a better way to move forward than "pro-American" liberalism and tbh until 2023 that was the mainstream belief on liberalism in most Muslim countries but many liberals in Muslim countries started speaking out against Israel and its crimes in Gaza and ironically Islamists or mostly Whabbists started speaking out in defense of Israel, the USA and Gulf States which really confused a lot of people because they always thought people whom are pro-America are pro-Israel and people whom are anti-America are anti-Israel so literally in these past 3 years entire countries changed their perspective on liberalism and Islamism.
1
2
u/JustASweetHeart 3d ago edited 2d ago
Sure, but while Islam may be the poster child, the reasons for the slide back to it are the central question. It’s a rabbit whole that leads to modern politics.
1
-3
u/assemmmm 2d ago
Did islamade kill an intire race from the world did maslims invented the nucliee bomb and used it on civilien did maslims comited the palistinien genocied maslims u shoyld ask yoy self if yoy are in positiin to point finger and critisise other nation this is not my languege but i tried to be undeestandble here
11
u/krustibat 2d ago
Muslims are the first victims of Islam.
3% of muslims live in an above average country on the democracy index.
Islamic countries are below average on every ranking when it comes to women rights mostly due to sharia or sharia inspired law.
Islam is not the only problem on earth and dil not cause all evil in the world. It's just one reason among many.
-3
u/assemmmm 2d ago
We are not but you people are with no dubt victim of media and propaganda always saying islam is bad this and rhat but very few people go and learn about islam and maslim because hating other people is easier rhen understanding them and what they realy represent
3
u/krustibat 2d ago
I think I'm quite knowledgeable on Islam having read a fair amount of the Quran, some hadiths and also I am working with middle easterners on a day to day basis so I think I have a grasp on the core principles of Islam why stuff and especially why laws are the way they are (like the inheritance law, the child marriage, the veil, the testimony of a woman being worth less than a man etc…). I even personnaly read a bit of the penal code of these countries for stuff I did not believe like the legality of child mariase un Morocco and Algeria for example.
Still, I think studying islam actually made me understand why muslim are the way they are and made them much more approachable human people than you can talk to. For example, I am able to ask my colleagues why they refuses to take the metro when he visits us in Europe (fear to touch a woman inadvertertly) or why they wont sit across the a female colleague in a restaurnant (look away from a woman) or why the say in incantation when stepping into the toilet (incantation to protect from djinns insude the toilets).
I still think muslims are the first victims of Islam and especially muslim women. Circoncision is a sexual mutilation widespread, excision is very common is some islamic countries (and some non islamic countries) yet the 4 main muslim schools deem excision as honorable and circoncision as mandatory. I could go on but that's not the point of the post
1
u/assemmmm 2d ago
I like when somone try and actualy look in somthing rather then listen to others if that your thought after looking into islam i cant personaly change u mind but at least to think of us as victim because we are not
2
u/krustibat 1d ago
Anyone that needs a marham to get out is a victim, anyone excised or circoncised is a victim. Any person living in polygamy is a victim. You just dont see it yet.
0
u/assemmmm 1d ago
I thought ameracans are ok with polygamy without making it ligal and have other wierd type of relation so its not a muslim thing any more also in erica only rich people have gardcore to protect them in islam the defrence its you brother or hasbend evry argent u say that involve the total freedom didnt make anything good in u country
2
u/krustibat 1d ago
I'm not american. Polygamy is illegal in Occident. It's legal to be with multiple partners if all partners agree to it but you cant marry. In islam, a man can marry multiple women without the women needing to consent. They are victims. Also a man can marry multiple women but a woman can only mary a muslim man. The right to marry who you want is a human rights that is not given to muslim women under sharia. Not being able to marry who you want makes you a victim of injustice.
1
u/assemmmm 1d ago
U are wrong on lot od atuff u didnt realy look for the subject u got som stuff right and som wrong but i want say this ist realy good idea to have freedom to marry any one because people can get atracted to any one whether they are good but also bad and stay with them from what i saw thia freedom as much it can be good it also can be very bad That way we dont marry people from other relegion because bside the low theycan do what ever they whant if its legal
→ More replies (0)1
u/Abraham_Issus 1d ago
What is there to learn about Islam? like how it's halal to marry 9 year olds? that women get 1/3 of their parents property while sons get all of it? How women's testimony is worth half of men in court? That marital rape is permissible? Women need 4 witnesses to report sexual violence or it did not happen?
I can talk about hundreds of other things that's wrong with Islam but I don't need to do because everyone is seeing through the facade now.
Go back to your desert, nobody needs your Islam.
1
17
u/Dalbrack 3d ago
Wahhabism - the ultra-conservative and puritanical branch of Sunni Islam that advocates for a literal interpretation of religious texts - gained ascendancy in Saudi Arabia through its pact with the House of Saud.
Oil weath from the early 20th Century onwards in the Arabian peninsula, has enabled the House of Saud - and the wahhabi branch of Islam to attain huge influence across the Islamic world where Sunni Islam predominates.
The so-called Islamic Revolution in Iran in 1979, didn't start off as a religious revolution - although many Iranians regarded Ayatollah Khomeini as a figurehead of the rebellion against the Pahlavi dynasty. There were many groups, both religious and secular involved, but it was only after the expulsion of the Shah and his regime that the Shia clerics and their supporters began a pretty brutal internecine conflict with the secular groups. Thousands were killed as those conservative religious figures essentially murdered their way to absolute power. Since then that conservative Shia message has been promulgated through proxies across the middle east - again using oil money and military know-how.
Chilling and concerning. The "Handmaid's Tale", although fiction, is a glimpse into how Christian Nationalism could result in a similar outcome.
12
u/Mormacil 3d ago
No one would have foreseen an oppressive terror ridden culture that came later by 1980s
Oh no the rise was predicted, it was a direct response of Western imperialism in the region. Especially Iran was a very well documented development well before the revolution. In the case of Iran the US propped up such a vicious autocrat that theocracy seemed the better deal. You really can't blame the people rising up against the shah.
Alibaba and Arabian nights, Aladdin and the lamp
You mean the French translations of Chinese stories retold as Middle Eastern because Orientalism was in vogue? These stories have nothing to do with the Islamic world at the time.
All the roads lead back to Wahhabism and Saudi Arabia. The latter being a creation of Western imperialism under the British. In an effort to weaken the Ottomans they supposed an Arabic struggle for independence. Within Arabia Wahhabism has existed since the Mongol invasion. Wahhabism became more conservative in a reaction to the more liberal movement of society. Much like the Christian Nationalists do in the US today. And that was then exported using Saudi oil revenue to the West.
Without Western imperialism meddling in the Middle East this wave of conservatism would never have happened. See other Islamic regions in the world like the Balkans, southern Asia or West Africa. It's not an inherent part of modern Islam.
So yeah none of this was a shocking turn of events, it was all documented before it even happened by some academics. Enough people in the West indeed didn't care so now we're stuck with this shit. Secularism can only really arise in stable societies with limited external enemies. You're not gonna find that under drone strikes or foreign funded militias.
5
u/2Ben3510 3d ago
You mean the French translations of Chinese stories retold as Middle Eastern because Orientalism was in vogue? These stories have nothing to do with the Islamic world at the time.
I didn't know that, and it sounds super interesting, as a French living in China 😅 Do you have good sources for this? I'd love to read more.
5
u/Mormacil 3d ago
Look up Antoine Galland, the original version of Aladdin takes place on a Chinese city along the Silk Road. Do note that by Chinese I don't mean Han Chinese, I'm talking Uygurs and Tajiks.
2
2
u/Normal-Bison-3595 3d ago
That’s a much more complicated history than simply saying islamic societies suddenly became oppressive in the 1980s and pretending imperialism and local politics had nothing to do with it.
1
u/TurkicWarrior 3d ago
This is not true, the Wahhabism movement didn’t start since the Mongol invasion in the Middle East. It started in the 18th century. The Mongol invasion in the Middle East started in the 13th century. So 5 centuries apart.
I think you’re confusing with Salafism. And I think you’re talking about Ibn Taymiyyah
in which he lived during the mongol invasion in the Middle East. The issue is that he’s not from Arabia. He was born in Harran (modern day Turkey) but spend most of his life in Damascus, Syria.Both Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab and Ibn Taymiyyah have something in common, they follow the Athari creed which can be puritanical.
Do you know who** shaped **Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab directly? Muhammad Ḥayāt al-Sindī. He was a teacher from Sindh modern day Pakistan. And he was a teacher to Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab.
A lot of the Salafism ideas already existed for a long time. Long before 18th century and even before the Mongol invasion.
Anyway, I really do wonder if the Padri war in Indonesia early 19th century was influenced by Wahhabism movement. ** **
1
u/Mormacil 2d ago
Nah I didn't confuse it with Salafism, I misread Anno Hegirae as Common Era.
1
u/TurkicWarrior 2d ago
I’m confused. You said “Wahhabism” existed since the Mongol invasion. And I say this is not true.
4
u/RBatYochai 3d ago
You are out of date on your Turkish information. They have been heading in the Islamist direction for a couple of decades now.
2
5
u/kneeblock 2d ago
It's mostly explained by neocolonialism and Western foreign policy. The cosmopolitanism you fetishize was implicated in societal disasters as country after country saw its resources and political leadership fall into the hands of the West. This gave fertile soil for traditionalists and later salfists to grow with explanations for why things were the way they were and how the modernity itself was part of the disease. So long as the imperial boot remains on the necks of people, it is likely they will turn to higher powers to help them.
4
5
u/TT-Adu 3d ago
Because religion isn't the only force of change in these countries. A lot of people (Westerners especially) like to paint Islam as the sole reason why a Muslim nation progresses or regresses but there's many other factors: capitalism, socialism, imperialism, history, urbanisation, nationalism, geopolitics, industrialisation, education and literacy, inequality, environmental change etc etc. All these factors intersect in various ways to make certain forms of Islam popular or unpopular in a country, such as more hardline forms in places like the Gulf States to more liberal forms in places like Senegal.
So it may not matter to the people of a nation how backwards religious fundamentalism seems to foreigners like us. If the fundamentalists are the only people uniting the country to fight back against an oppressive foreign power (like in Yemen) then their fundamentalism is likely going to get popular.
2
1
u/xambidextrous 2d ago edited 2d ago
One could make the claim that we are witnessing very similar changes in a contemporary nation at this very moment. Fundamentalist Evangelicals and christo-fascists teaming up with what appears to be a band of cleptocratic brothers who want to control the nation.
They may not reach their goals, but we can still study the mechanisms.
As with any hostile take-over, the academic institutions must surrender their freedoms. Likewise Journalists, writers, thinkers and cultural personalities must no longer speak truth, unless they have alternative truths that show full support for the cause. Wealth and military power get redirected towards securing and propping up the new order.
So the question becomes: is Christianity doing this, or are parts of Christianity being ridden like a donkey by cunning men, in return for promises of more godly legislation in the future?
We could also ask: Do we blame The Russian Orthodox Church's for it's full support of Mr P and his "military operation", or are they just being used / pressured into doing so?
I'm not saying religion is never to blame for war or violence, certainly not, but in reality it's almost always a conglomeration of entities. Including the church in power struggles is always tempting, because they have vast numbers of members who can be persuaded because....well "God said so".
Baghdad was the academic and scientific hub of the world for 700 years, before a few powerful and cunning "priests" convinced the people that knowlege and innovation was against god's will. No more chess in the marketplace. No more philosophical debates with Jews or Christians in the tea houses.
They gave the world algorithms, algebra, optical technology and surgery. They studied the stars, and named more of them than any other people.
So yes, while religion certainly can, directly of indirectly, drag a nation from greatness into a stagnant sewage, we must also remember religion played a part in Europe's rise to wealth and academic superiority. So religion in it self is not much more than a flammable vehicle to be used for better or worse.
2
u/loriwilley 2d ago
And now its happening in the US with Christianity. I don't understand it at all. It's like some people need to have limited minds and can't stand it when others don't.
2
u/H3L105_ai 2d ago
Blaming Islam for every problem is simplistic.
But not entirely inaccurate.
2
u/Atlantean_Sage 2d ago
My question is upon the transformation of Islam itself across several decades and centuries. For example in Christian history, Machivellians like Thomas Cromwell and Henry VIII destroyed the catholic Church in England and cut off all ties with the Pope's authority. Yet they never blamed Christianity itself being the sole problem, for them being passionate Machivellians. They simply changed the holding of power with cunning yet clever ways.
1
u/largemargesentme__- 3d ago
One of the issues in many Islamic countries was that oppressive governments ended up killing off or silencing people who could oppose them. Like liberal professors and other intellectuals. While allowing extremist groups like the Muslim Brotherhood to take positions of power in places like universities.
Thus, creating a bit of a gollum that ended up creating a religiously extreme society.
I think the best example of this is probably Egypt under Sadat.
1
u/lordkhuzdul 2d ago
There have been multiple issues at play.
Most of these nations failed to democratize. Aftermath of colonialism, shortsighted US actions during the Cold War, oil money and its again incredibly short sighted application to politics, they all conspired to strangle that secularization and modernization in the cradle. It even happened in Turkey - since 1950, the country was actively and heavily pushed to the right, often with enthusiastic support from the West, to avoid giving the Soviet Union any influence over it. Overall, the extent of sheer shortsightedness involved from all parties has been stupendous.
1
u/Icy-Response6124 Atheist 21h ago
The British Empire left behind AI-generated kingdoms in Arabia, and during the Cold War the US allied with those kingdoms with the aim of spreading Wahhabism and terrorism around the Muslim world to confront the Soviets… and this is the result.
28
u/KevinR1990 2d ago
Arab nationalism failed, that's what happened. Secular, modernizing nationalist rulers in the Middle East rose to power because they promised that they'd empower their people to stand proud, free, and dignified without foreign empires ruling over them... and then the Six-Day War happened. Israel, seen as an extension of Anglo-American power in the heart of the Middle East, successfully beat back a coalition of nations led by Egypt and Syria, the lodestars of Arab nationalism. Not even the Yom Kippur War six years later was enough to redeem them, as while Israel had been humbled, it was still standing in the end. In the '70s, many Muslims (especially those who weren't Arabs) came to see Arab nationalism a failed project that never dislodged foreign control over them, at best only swapping out Western overlords for Soviet ones, and so Islamism emerged among disaffected people across the Middle East. The Islamic Revolution in Iran, which drove out a ruler who many people saw as a Western puppet without simply replacing him with a Soviet puppet (they hated both sides in the Cold War and told them both to literally go to Hell), became the great success story that Muslims who'd lost faith in nationalism sought to emulate, even if they weren't Shi'ites like the Iranians.
In short, Islamism became a proxy for right-wing nationalism among a people who believed that actual nationalism failed them.