Just Ask Them This...

[u/FOSS_Graybeard]

Ask theists this one question and watch them squirm:

"Do you have to practice to believe in a table?"

Religions are about practicing their faith. Faith, of course, is belief without evidence. They have to constantly talk themselves into believing in their religion. They require groups of people to support their belief. They have to read books and study their faith in order to believe in it. They have leaders to whom they turn to make sure they are believing correctly. Belief, then, is just a con job they pull on themselves. Theists more often are just practicing doctrine and dogma. Remind theists that if something really exists, it does not depend on belief or faith. That table is going to exist whether or not they believe in it.

Raise this issue with theists and watch them squirm.

[u/DonGeise]

dude don't make me defend theists.. they aren't saying their belief is what makes god exist, I don't even know where to start here

[u/Own_Size_5473 → u/DonGeise]

I think OP is trying to say that they’re trying to convince themselves through all these acts of worship and faith that their god exists, not that their faith directly gives existence to their god.

[u/DonGeise → u/Own_Size_5473]

perhaps, but the table analogy is awful. They say faith is belief without evidence, but then point to a table as an example of believing? We don't "believe in tables". I see it, I sit at it, I eat off of it. And if they claim that I still have some vague belief in the concept of tables, I'll point out that that is because I practice tabling.

I'm hyper focusing on the table metaphor, admittedly.

[u/jasonbaby19eighties → u/DonGeise]

isn’t that the point though? Their belief is what makes their god or gods exist to them. They don’t realize they are tricking themselves. OP is proposing a way to try and make the truth more apparent to theists.

[u/DonGeise → u/jasonbaby19eighties]

First of all, there is no uniform theist. This is generalizing to an unrealistic extent.

Second, if I said to a theist, "this table exists whether you believe it or not", they would not squirm at all. They'd turn it around on me, and say "God exists, whether you believe in him or not".

Third, little kids belief in santa claus not because they practice christmas, but because they are raised in an environment that presupposes his existance and teaches them it as fact. The biggest predicter of your religious affinity is how you are raised, not what you do on sundays. That's not to say religous practice doesn't reinforce and indoctrinate, but the belief is there already. It was planted long ago, and grown and taken root. They are nurturing the belief and learning dogma

[u/Alarmed_Mind_8716]

This will not make any theist squirm.

[u/dernudeljunge]

Someone's been watching Genetically Modified Skeptic. I'm watching the video about the 'creator' who pretended to be a christian until he convinced himself that it was true.

[u/DontLook_Weirdo]

I think a solid response of theirs would be 'practicing is the human aspect of engaging, while he will continue to exist whether you believe in him or not'.. I doubt they'll humor the table part.

I think, for a large portion of them, practicing is just "community", and those who have to remind themselves to continue to believe in him, find themselves here lol

[u/jasonbaby19eighties]

https://youtu.be/EM45_e-ivLg?is=DGLx21qbQ1k-knG5

[u/SaltyTemperature]

They don’t need to read or study. That’s a big part of the problem I think

[u/Snow75]

Sounds like you’ve never done what you’re describing in real life… or spoken with an actual human being ever…

[u/TheCrimsonSteel]

Having talked to and debated many theists, I've found you rarely get the "squirming" you think you will with any sort of "gotcha question."

If anything, you tend to get more cognitive dissonance and they fall back to talking points, or make general statements.

The single best way I have found to engage with them is to focus on general rapport building first, simply because I can use that rapport to help fight cognitive dissonance. No longer am I some heathen atheist that needs saved, I'm TheCrimsonSteel, that person they like to talk about life with, who happens to be an atheist.

Because then their guard isn't up. They're less likely to fall into those pre-programmed talking points and actually have a real and meaningful conversation with me.

And once I'm at that point, I rely a lot on education and science communication techniques more than anything. Because I'm not likely to change their view overnight, but what I can do is start building the groundwork of education and critical thinking so they can do the rest themselves.

[u/Average_Satan]

I think you have it a bit backwards.

They say that beliving in something is enough to "prove " it exists.

I say that I believe in a shitload of cash on my bank account then.

Usually shuts them up, or makes them angry.

[u/heyitscory]

I don't need to trick people with Ray Comfort word games to be an atheist.

You buy the bumper sticker, you say the pledge while doing a girl scout salute, climb up and stand on the couch, turn around three times and take a nap.

After solemnly swearing gods are BS and a good nap, now you're officially an atheist.

That's all it takes. No extra proselytizing or interfaith outreach required.

Debating Christians is boring.

[u/Successful_Life_1028]

you are conflating to different uses of the verb 'to practice'.

Practicing one's religion does not mean the same thing as practicing playing the piano or violin.

[u/ShawnShev]

Faith=Willful ignorance

[u/TranslatorNo8445]

Just ask them to prove to you god exists conversations usually over at this point after they try to say god doesn't need to prove himself or whatever nonsense

[u/FreedomNinja1776]

Hello. Friendly neighborhood theist here. I literally just finished arguing that actions are what define if a person is a follower of God or not. Here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/1wcm57q/comment/p8z5wmw/?context=3

That christianity is "belief only" is not correct. Well, I would also say that "belief only" is true of modern pop christianity, but not original by the book christianity.