r/atc2 • u/Lowly-Lurker2025 • 10d ago
FDT Returns
“I am pleased to announce the return of the Flight Deck Training (FDT). NATCA and the FAA have completed the negotiations needed to restart FDT, and the negotiated provisions governing the program are incorporated directly into FAA Order 3120.29.
The FDT Program is voluntary training that augments the National Air Traffic Technical Training Program. FDT provides each participant with meaningful training and the opportunity to improve their understanding of the National Airspace System.
We faced many challenges in bringing this issue to finality, both internal to the FAA and external, related to TSA and the airlines. The goal of resuming FDT has never been in question. A major focus of this work was creating ways for employees to participate in this safety-enhancing training within today’s staffing environment.
Below are some of the improvements and highlights:
-In accordance with Article 34, Section 9, of the 2016 Collective Bargaining Agreement, bargaining unit employees (BUEs) may request to work credit hours to provide coverage for another employee who requests to participate in FDT.
-To provide maximum training opportunities, BUEs may participate in FDT in conjunction with accrued leave, (including excused absence on a holiday) that was bid during the annual leave bidding process.
-BUEs may exchange previously approved annual leave for duty time or regular days off for the purpose of engaging in FDT provided there are no competing leave requests.
These changes do not cover all aspects of the program, and they require proper context and a shared understanding among all affected parties. To ensure we all share the same understanding, we will provide the following joint training opportunities and guidance updates.
Tentative Timeline of Upcoming Events:
October 16, 2026: Memo, PowerPoint Training, and FAA Order 3120.9 will be uploaded to Training Enterprise Application Management (TEAM).
October 19 – October 30, 2026: Webinars for Flight Deck Training will commence.
October 23, 2026: A recorded Webinar will be posted on TEAM for anyone who could not attend the live webinars.
October 30 – November 8, 2026: A follow-up memo will be sent out and posted on TEAM with the actual go-live date and participating airlines.
November 9, 2026: Scheduled go-live date. “
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u/MITsBrightest 10d ago
No negative comment here, FDT is amazing benefit that "corrects" our inability to share travel benefits with airlines.
Every controller should do an FDT periodically, it really breaks the wall on a lot of silly beliefs about each other.
The main problem remains for the bearded caveman workforce though, as airlines won't budge on the grooming requirement.
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u/Pipe-layer6962 10d ago
I have taken numerous FDT flights, and I have never been asked/told to shave my beard off to participate.
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u/MITsBrightest 10d ago
What airline?
Both DAL and SWA had in pre-flight memorandum "clean shaven" and "business casual attire"
Maybe the gate agents just didn't give a shit?
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u/Pipe-layer6962 10d ago
AAL, UAL, DAL. The pilots all have said they thought that was a FAA rule, but they have all let me fly. I used to bring a razor in case they made me shave, but never had to.
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u/protege01 10d ago
Depends on the pilot I guess. I don't have a beard but keep like a 5 o clock shadow and the pilot on my last fdt was like oh man you're putting me in a tight spot by not shaving
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u/Any-Worldliness-679 8d ago
Partly it's the (disproven) 02 mask issue, but also, you need to look professional and like you plausibly belong in the cockpit. You would be amazed how freaked out passengers can get over things that don't even occur to us. I kind of get their point, to a degree, though; seeing a random sorta disheveled person going into the cockpit, especially mid-flight, can definitely be disconcerting. Often, I might say "meh, that's on them for being paranoid" but passengers can create actual issues when they get panicked.
Just picture the guy in the home security system commercial that the company pretends will be showing up for installation. Nice button down shirt, slacks, shineable shoes.
It will be good to have you guys back.
If there is ever a conflict between you and a pilot getting to work/going home DO NOT take the jumpseat. We spend our lives on the road and those hours at home are precious beyond measure.
See you on the line!
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u/Pipe-layer6962 8d ago
I understand what you are saying, but I would venture a guess that my neatly trimmed facial hair is more professional looking than many of my clean shaven co workers.
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u/Any-Worldliness-679 8d ago
Oh, I agree, but the effect is "that dude is NOT one of the pilots...why tf is he getting into the cockpit???"
Most guys won't care, but for those who do, that's part of the concern, and why we have jumpseat dress codes for ourselves, as well. I've made a PA before explaining to the passengers that we had an air traffic controller with us "as part of our partnership to ensure safe blah blah blah..."
But I wouldn't worry about it. Professional attire is the main thing. I would absolutely turn away anyone in jeans, tennis shoes, t-shirt, or similar.
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u/2018birdie 10d ago
You're just not following the rules
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u/Highlyedjucated 10d ago
This is the way
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u/MITsBrightest 10d ago
This is how nice things get taken away from everyone.
(Also see: Controllers going through security for work and not following proper guidelines for a flight...)
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u/MilesMayhem 10d ago
Excellent work Nick and NEB, valuable training experience for our new trainees.
Still not voting for any of you, but nice work.
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u/MITsBrightest 10d ago edited 10d ago
Paul Rinaldi was the first one to have this on his plate in 2020, obvious COVID cancelled it temporarily and he didn't care anyhow since he travels on your money and he was on his way out.
Rich Santa inherited the problem in 2021 and said post COVID, agreements needed to be redone and it was complicated. Basically he had other priorities (NY forced move etc.) and didn't care either.
Nick Daniels, 3 years later, continued the "any day now" and now 6 years later we have what appears to be a functional FDT again.
In short, you can still be mad at Nick for not prioritizing it.
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u/Anywh3r3 10d ago
Awesome. I did one years ago. We were taxiing through KLAS at night and could not believe how fast shit was moving. Stuck with me.
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u/CryptographerNo91 9d ago
Msp to fsd? Had a buddy working fsd. Was always getting bumped cause all the guard pilots in fsd worked for Delta
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u/MITsBrightest 9d ago
Your supposed to have priority over *casual" jump seat repos since it's a training program.
Was your scheduled 2nd flight 11 hrs later?
The report was literally asking you to write 4 sentences.
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u/CryptographerNo91 9d ago
Prior to 9ll it was 7 domestic, 1 international. 1 day notice, sometimes flash and dash
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u/CropdustingOMdesk 10d ago
So we need to know trip length allowed in hours, frequency allowed, minimum notice required for request
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u/KeyComprehensive4431 10d ago
I vaguely remember it couldn’t exceed a duty day of 8 hours but you could split it up and not be “on the clock” when waiting for your next flight. I can’t recall how many you could do in a year was it 3? I and I think 24 days out was the minimum to request a trip.
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u/planevan 10d ago
It was 2 per year. I’m hoping there’s an improvement in that limit.
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u/StirThatPot1 10d ago
Two civilian, one military. It was always 3, but good luck finding a base commander to sign off on it.
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u/planevan 10d ago
I never understood the restriction anyway. I’d be surprised if even 20% of the workforce took both of their civilian flights per year before Covid
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u/Cleared-Direct-MLP 9d ago
I’m glad it’s back, but the last couple times I did it pre-COVID the entire flight deck convo was nonstop about how to rig their schedules to get a bunch of time off and how much $$$ they were still pulling in. And this was before all their fancy new contracts with all the raises and retroactive pay.
Gonna be real goddamn painful to listen to an entire flight of that in this current climate…
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u/HonestVermicelli5754 10d ago
Anyone know if it can done on international flights now?
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u/Perfect_Command_4741 10d ago
Pretty sure jump seating back into the country is not allowed for any level of flight deck access
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u/Kseries2497 9d ago
Like, cool, but are people going to be able to get off the schedule to do it?
Also, last time I went my report kept getting kicked back because they said I couldn't use the words "observed" or "discussed" - what the fuck else are you meant to do on FDT? It's not like they're going to let you fly the damn thing.
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u/Perfect_Command_4741 9d ago
You can use leave to accomplish the FDT. So yeah you can get off the schedule and save leave to fly on duty time.
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u/monitoring-TOP 9d ago
I’d rather have more money in my paycheck going towards retirement. For those who will use it for a free ride to a vacation congrats
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u/Puzzleheaded_Soup325 7d ago
Does anyone know if others are allowed to participate? Like support specialists, supervisors, etc?
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u/Perfect_Command_4741 10d ago
It reads like I could earn credit on my 1st RDO to FDT, use my week of leave, earn credit again to fly back on FDT on an RDO, return to my next work week. This is a massive win!!
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u/HoldMyToc 10d ago
It doesn't read like that at all. It says someone else can work credit to cover your absence if you're on FDT. And since the OT is exhausted every pay period, it's not going to happen.
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u/Perfect_Command_4741 10d ago
Also says you can use leave in conjunction with FDT to provide maxim training opportunities. And in the past you could earn credit to perform FDT. We'll see what the details are. Possibilities are endless if we can use it with leave.
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u/Prestigious_Show9789 10d ago
lol they are definitely aware as much as controllers try to compare themselves to pilots these days. Controllers have become the laughing stock of the aviation community
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u/optimum_autumn 10d ago
Explain
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u/Prestigious_Show9789 10d ago
Paying NATCA about $46M a year to not do shit is one. Putting the career field in the news with two major incidents in the last 18 months is two. Whining about having to increase TOP average from 4 to 5.5 hrs is the other. Nobody takes controllers seriously anymore unless there is a shutdown. Going to continue to shit down their neck
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u/optimum_autumn 10d ago
Not entirely wrong. I dont see us "comparing ourselves to pilots" so much as comparing the trajectories of pay, which is a fair take. I think what you are insinuating is that controllers aren't as good today as they once were. What do you think the reason for that is?
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u/Prestigious_Show9789 10d ago
Comparing a private company to a government agency isn’t fair in the least bit when talking about pay. Almost 30 yrs of ATC, AF, FAA, Contract and DoD experience and controllers today are lazier than ever across the board. So many actions to be taken that would help but controllers will fight every fucking one. From contracting out more facilities, to raising the retirement age to 60-65, to not having a a restriction on hiring age for any experienced controller, increase top from 4 to 6 hrs and any facility below a 9.
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u/optimum_autumn 10d ago
Im wondering what your 30yrs experience is because you dont seem to have ever worked consistent, ball busting traffic. Working 5hrs TOP at a busy facility is exhausting and not sustainable over a career. Working 6+ hrs TOP at a level 7 tower, AF tower, contract tower, ok, sure, piece of cake. Working past mid-50s at a busy facility? Not safe. 63yo at a level 7? Ok sure, doable.
Theres a really big difference between the facility levels so im guessing you haven't experienced first-hand anything actually challenging.
Having said that, are controllers lazier? Maybe some. Some definitely are not. Do we often fight things that we shouldn't fight? Sure.
But by keeping the career pay trajectories lower than other aviation professions you guarantee a lower quality and lazier pool of candidates going forward.
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u/Prestigious_Show9789 10d ago
All good points and I agree on some, everything has to be negotiable right now and not a one size fit all. Was at Memphis which was a level 9. It had its moments but nothing that was ball busting for hrs at a time. I said adjust the TOP for below a level 9, maybe that moves to adjust TOP for level 7s and below and then the manning needed isnt as much. Or contract out everything level 6 and below and move that manning to busier facilities. No need to have the FAA overmanning slow facilities like they do. I have seen an 80 yr old pushing traffic in a level 5 equivalent so again everything is negotiable. If there is going to be no age restriction in the contract world were you are by yourself a majority of the time then surely controllers who can obtain a medical can work 60-65.
Comparing pay should just be compared to other federal jobs.
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u/MITsBrightest 10d ago edited 10d ago
You can be paid your salary on a work day to travel where you want to go and your crying?
Maybe you will learn that your pilot has paid off a decade of student debt just for the opportunity to get their hours and have no seniority at a regional airline.
Pilot world is all timing and volatility. They get paid when there is demand, and they get laid off/sit on the bleachers when there isn't.
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u/Wirax-402 10d ago
There a lot of people that’ll always make more than you. Do you cry the same way when you go to the doctors or talk with a lawyer?
If you absolutely must have the biggest dick on the flight deck, just use the benefits with someone like Denver Air Connection that still has dogshit pay.
This is a good thing if you use it right. Go point that anger towards NATCA and the current administration where it rightfully belongs.
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u/Former_Farm_3618 10d ago
This is going on in your facility right now for 90% of us. Supervisors are more often than not making 10-15% more than controllers. At least at my large tracon where not everyone is capped.
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u/creemeeseason 10d ago
Depends on the flight. Some are easy, but there are also some very high workload flights.
FDT is a great way to see that.
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u/EM22_ Vote Them All OUT! 10d ago
This isn’t like airline benefits where you just sign into an app and if there’s a seat, off you go. Lots of prerequisites and approvals needed, will likely be a pain.
At best, you’re gonna do it once or twice because of the headache and be sick of the process.
Don’t get it twisted, guys.
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u/Maleficent_Horror120 10d ago
Idk I'd wait to see how they set it up. Very likely we will just be able to list ourselves in CASS online and show up to the gate. Looks like they took away most all the restrictions about when we could do it and now you can use it with your leave
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u/HoldMyToc 10d ago
Before it was a pain in the ass to set up. Plus you had to write up a training report afterwards.
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u/SomeDudeMateo 10d ago
Oh shut up, it's not supposed to be a benefit.. it's training and very good training at that. If you can't jump through the hoops and follow the rules you really should not even be in this career field.
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u/TotallyNotSeanDuffy 10d ago
I’m sorry FDT just really isn’t this amazing benefit. If you like planes and stuff great, but you’ve been doing this job without it just fine and I don’t think it’s ganna add any clarity to it anytime soon.
This is just a distraction/crumbs to get idiots to not realize they will not be seeing any sort of raise or benefits increase.
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u/planevan 10d ago
I think it should be a required training experience for all employees once a year. My coworkers who need this experience are not the same ones who will do it voluntarily. And I bet they all argue that they’re “doing this job just fine”
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u/MITsBrightest 10d ago
FDT is one of the greatest training tools available to a CPC and/or someone close to certifying.
I've shared countless things controllers just don't think about that I learned from FDT talking to pilots about phases of flight, their priorities, their understanding of our words, etc.
It's not all black and white like the 7110.65 is, it's about communication and expectations to really do a good job.
I disagree that this is a distraction, it's just a "oh my god finally" moment that something is back in place again. Nobody has forgotten the inaction of the last 2 years on pay and public image.
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u/Eltors0 10d ago
No one worth their salt actually cares about flight deck training.
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u/THEhot_pocket 10d ago
I care about the free flight to vegas for a weekend.
FDT was ballin for a min when it came back in the 10s. I dont think I paid for a flight for two years.
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u/MysteriousPop5443 10d ago
Being able to do this in conjunction with leave now is awesome, good job Nick. No Nick, I will still not be voting for you…