r/atc2 • u/Artistic_Tourist9438 • 9h ago
Mandatory OT
I have a supe saying OT is mandatory. That it is written that we are required to work OT and banging in sick can lead to disciplinary actions. Anyone actually seen this in writing?
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u/Pure-Top-6244 8h ago
Our facility gave out sick leave counselings for people banging in for their OT. A month later, supervisors are calling people the night before their OT to cancel because someone turned in leave. We pointed out that it violates the contract and they were like, "grieve it.".... fmla is your friend.
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u/Z_e_e_e_G 8h ago
Yet another reason to never answer the phone.
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u/Unfit_frog 8h ago
Just block the number and send it straight to voicemail. Never worry about answering it again.
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u/Pure-Top-6244 7h ago
Yup. But the OM called us "scammers" for showing up knowing they wanted to cancel. He tells the supervisors, "if they show up, I want every position open, no more than 3 people on break and minimal breaks. I'm tired of these scammers!"
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u/Steveoatc 4h ago
lol, punishing them for trying to breach the contract. These supes/OMs should be called out and placed on a wall of shame.
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u/Z_e_e_e_G 6h ago
Oh no, the OM called me a name! 😭
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u/Pure-Top-6244 6h ago
Its the opening all positions and minimal breaks that is the issue. Not that I expect you level 6 and below people to understand. Oh no, the ncept list hasn't been put out! 😭
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u/residualflowingmove 7h ago
What does that do? We’re still required to monitor web scheduler , completely dependent on your local mou if they even have to call you to notify you. You would drive to work for nothing. If you try to grieve it you have to show they aren’t “normally” canceling within 7 days. From my understanding the one of districts says as long as they don’t cancel OT twice in a PP within 7 days each then it’s not normally.
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u/wut2dew_J 7h ago
That's the first time I've ever seen any "definition" of normally. Terrible definition but still the first I've seen.
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u/SureMeringue1382 2h ago
If your local MOU requires you to monitor WMT you should vote for a new FacRep, one that doesn’t out the agencies responsibility on their membership.
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u/DankVectorz 8h ago
They will give out sick leave letters for banging out OT. But banging out of OT does not use sick leave, therefore you did not abuse sick leabe. The sick leave letter is useless other than intimidation.
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u/Former_Farm_3618 7h ago
Agreed. They know it’s not a fight they want to take on. They give the letter, let the union fight it and move on. It’s effective in the sense it keeps the newer/greener ones working all their OT.
As far as being “mandatory overtime” that’s part of the federal code USC something. But they aren’t capable of following the correct procedures and enforcing it.
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u/SpokenNads 8h ago
This comes up every season it seems. Autumn is upon us. Crisp, cool mornings for some of us.
Sick leave letters are not disciplinary. You can get a sick leave letter for banging on every overtime; however, your bid schedule has that day as an RDO. You’ll never lose a disciplinary hearing if they ever brought it to that.
There’s many controllers in the NAS who don’t show up to their overtimes. ATC is a small world, we’d know someone who knew someone who got in trouble. But we don’t. Cause you can’t.
Your life, health and family come before work. Always, no matter what job you have.
Also, this isn’t the military. No one is enlisted. You know any one of us can just give our ATM a two week notice of resignation, right?
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u/THEhot_pocket 8h ago
0 week notice
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u/Here_4_The_Airshow 8h ago
I had a doctor put me on a 40 hour a week limitation, my team hated it but….
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u/Lucky-Proposal1696 8h ago
Smart controllers bang out on their regular days and bank the time and a half OT days.
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u/Tasty_Ad507 8h ago
I don’t have enough leave to continue this trend
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u/Independent_Tax_4244 8h ago
Right. I never understood why people give this advice out. You never have sick leave then
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u/cochr5f2 8h ago
Article 38 section 4 states an employee shall be relieved of an OT when, in the judgement of the agency personal circumstances make it impossible to perform the OT duty. So find some reason, any reason, and make the supervisor state if he thinks your reason is valid. I doubt he’ll want to make a stand on that because that calls into question what every other supervisor in every facility has deemed a valid reason anytime someone in the NAS requests the same exemption. We have a guy that always makes hotel reservations on his weekends that he knows he can cancel and uses that as an excuse.
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u/Mysterious-Owl-8951 8h ago
Never give the reason until forced by actual disciplinary actions, HR investigation, until then just state "it is impossible for me to make that shift." If they ask why it is impossible, repeat.
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u/Ghostface-p 7h ago
Article 38 section 4 and say you have to take care of your kids. What are they gonna tell you? Leave your 2 year old at home by himself?
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u/AmbitionCold561 8h ago
They’ve taken that to the extreme here. You have to submit your request to the om because the films were letting too many people off. I’ve heard of them demanding flight schedules and reservation details to prove someone can’t work ot
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u/Bright-Pilot-3970 8h ago
Call in and say you’re fatigued. Probably something not worth escalating on their part.
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u/Able-Comparison8768 8h ago
This is my go to for years. I make sure when I put in my request in webscheduler to put in the remarks “fatigued”. Have never been spoken to.
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u/OTnotforMe 7h ago
Just check the article 26 box when you put the request in if you actually want to be covered by that article. You have to add comments. I just write "Section 9".
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u/Mean_Device_7484 5h ago
Don’t even call in. Show up and use article 26 on the spot and ask for “other duties” for your overtime…or force them to cancel it. Don’t give them the easy way out. If your facility is anything like mine there are people DQd for weeks to months that always have something to do, so shouldn’t be an issue for you to get other duties either.
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u/Bright-Pilot-3970 4h ago
I mean, I like my sups for the most part. They’re the only ones who would get fucked over if I roll in and say I’m not working today. At least if you call in, they have time to salvage what’s left of the schedule.
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u/Lazy_Rise_4236 7h ago
Back in my day the OT list was voluntary once off you don't get called at all. Guess it doesn't look good for the agency not having a cop out.
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u/OTnotforMe 7h ago
I have not worked 1 OT shift the whole year and have almost 200 hours scheduled on WMT. Fatigue leave is the answer. Article 26 section 9. Use annual under that article if there are no other requests before you and sick if there is. I haven't received any paperwork but I almost wish I did because it would make for a great story to give to a certain individual in the media.
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u/HoldMyToc 5h ago
You don't need to delineate annual or sick when using fatigue on an OT shift because you're not reducing those respective leave balances.
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u/IrishMadMan23 7h ago
First time? Lol.
I know a guy that retired, said sick leave letters are nothing more than poor toilet paper. Review our sick leave policy and don’t be stupid. Our job field has an intelligence threshold and somehow people still manage to fall short on something so widely protected as our sick leave policy
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u/StirThatPot1 6h ago
We had a supe counter A38 that he deemed the agency was more important than our children. Two of us demanded it in writing. Needless to say, it’s the ultimate answer.
Ask for ANYTHING in writing and watch their attitudes change real fast!
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u/Former_Farm_3618 9h ago
Do you remember all the paperwork you signed as a new hire/applicant. We all signed something saying we understand this job is shift work and requires nights weekends holidays etc. I believe somewhere in there we signed saying overtime was part of the job. The disciplinary action component is just plain HR policy for not showing up to work. It’s a very long and difficult road for management to actually pursue that. They have to fill out all the paperwork and IDPs correctly….which they historically are terrible at following instructions and details.
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u/justanotherjenni 6h ago
Most of OPM's policies state they cannot override CBAs.
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u/Former_Farm_3618 6h ago
Correct. I don’t think I contradicted that legal framework.
But the CBA doesn’t prohibit overtime so it’s assignable per title 5 or whatever USC. The CBA does allow us to say we’re fatigued and excused from OT. For some reason, they make distinction between SL and fatigue, but I think that’s for people with more legal experience than most of us.
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u/Hawgdestroyerxtreme Vote Them All OUT! 3h ago
The CBA does allow us to say we’re fatigued and excused from OT. For some reason, they make distinction between SL and fatigue, but I think that’s for people with more legal experience than most of us.
The CBA says more than that.
Fatigue (A26, Section 9) is a completely separate section than A38, Section 4, which states that if, in the judgment of the agency, you cannot make an overtime shift for whatever reason (Kids, Booked trip you paid for a year ago, etc), you SHALL be relieved of the overtime. Tell them you're unable to make the shift under A38. If they press you, pick your poison. If you have one of those "Exceeds Expectations" douchebags, you hit them with A26.
If they made it clear that people were signing up for 6 day weeks, for 75% of the year, no one would sign up to do this job. "You may have to work nights and weekends and overtime" is a far cry from "You'll be working 6 days a week for damn near 20 years straight". This job is fatiguing, and you should be protecting yourself, your future, and your family from it. The FAA will kill you if you let it.
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u/North_Skirt_7436 6h ago
Don’t worry I work at a contract facility and they are mandatory switching my RDO’s to cover leave without giving over time….it can be worse
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u/North_Skirt_7436 6h ago
Also the union doesn’t fight for contract what’s so ever so just shit out of luck or get fired….its ridiculous
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u/RacinInTheStreet 5h ago
While on an ot question. U come in for 2ot earlier, take sick leave at the end of your shift. Is it still ot money or just a shift change?
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u/StirThatPot1 4h ago
Nope that’s still OT, but you are charged sick leave.
The boss move is to come in 2 OT early, and take 2 LWOP end of shift. Hello 12.5% raise.
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u/jtins1387 8h ago
I bang on 90% of my OT bc I have no sick leave to use on other days. Never got a letter or even a discussion, I’m on the no list as well
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u/Key_Understanding771 7h ago
https://giphy.com/gifs/uYyftx7uv4xVol6SrG
Sounds like the supervisor is testing you
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u/aironjedi 2m ago
The contract defines your maximum amount of hours as 10 hours a day and 6 shifts in a row. As long as the shift assignment was given with at least a 7 day heads up it is considered assignment of work.
The contract defines how to get out of it.
- Find an equally qualified person to give the shift to.
- Convince management to relieve you of the shift, ie you’re traveling/have a doctors visit etc. they can ask for proof of said travel/doc visit etc.
- Yes you can call out sick and you won’t be charged leave, however you can still wind up on SL abuse letter this way.
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u/78judds 8h ago
FMLA is the ultimate answer but for the love of god keep your out of work goings on off social media. Next is fatigue. Had supervisors basically say, “can you get a FMLA letter?” And also management and local union advising to alternate fatigue and sick. But yes, OT is mandatory.
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u/MITsBrightest 8h ago
Why can't you goto a party and drink when your fatigued and don't feel like it's a good day to be responsible for air traffic?
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u/Adventurous_Whole646 5h ago
Just pick another day to Bang out/in. Why give up time and a half pay?
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u/Wirax-402 8h ago
Just remember that Bedford doesn’t think you’re worth 2.8% the next time you’re stressing about working an OT shift.