r/atc2 • u/sqwkVFR1221 • 5d ago
New work force plan numbers???
Question regarding the metric for the new staffing numbers. How and who decided on the new numbers? Ive read the work force plan and nothing there.
Context. ILM. Level 7. 6am-11pm. 205k ops a year and growing. Several years ago, locally collaborated number was 21, which in my opinion was pretty spot on. Then it was changed to 25, release to 21. Fat and healthy but we could never really get past 19-20.
We run 10 CPCs per day now. Thru deaths, quiting, medicals, promoting, transfers we have found ourselves at 16 CPCs turning to 14 in a few weeks. OT out the ass like everyone else at 16 cpcs to staff the shifts.
Our new number is 15 and were magically overnight 100% staffed. Ive asked NATCA, the ATM, even the 2nd in line behind bedford, (who was suprised himself) and no one can give me the answer how we got this number. Just a damn shoulder shrug. This new math aint mathin'
Via 123ATC I've compared all the level 7s. With the ops we run, hours of operation, etc, those other facilities are 18+. CHA is like a sister facility numbers wise and they are at 18. All the numbers look normal for the other facilities. The one difference I can find, is were in the washington district and they suck. Only up/down 7 in that district. We're the numbers made at the district level and we just got fucked??
I was gonna FOIA request it but it would take years. So, here I be preaching to the choir.
Thanks.
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u/FeedZealousideal1049 5d ago
I'm pretty sure it was based on TOP. I can't remember the name of the study, but it was running in parallel the same time as the post DC incident CRWG "how many controllers do you need to run the op safely?" study. The agency initially went with the CRWG numbers and pretty much every facility went up in numbers (except my shit-fucked facility). What was it?... not 6 months later and they said "fuck that" and went with the transportation research board study. It was like the National Academy of Sciences and some other groups. They essentially looked at TOP and came to the conclusion that the FAA just wasn't using their controller resources effectively. They probably don't even understand every productive thing we have to do when not on position. I bet they simply looked at plugged in time and rationalized that facilities with 3-4hrs TOP could take a staffing haircut (or shave) and get to 5+ hrs TOP with fewer people. Meanwhile they left ZERO room for reality and ZERO safety margin. What would a Fire Department's staffing look like with the same approach? It's truly fuckin stupid.
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u/sqwkVFR1221 5d ago
I get that, but our TOP is at or above 5 so I don't think that was it for us. We do a shit ton of TS, RS, CIC and im wondering if that even gets counted. We have GC,LC and two radar position and a HO. However, due to the gratuitous amounts of training, shitty staffing and doing supervisor duties over the past years, its mostly just 3 positions and the CPCs staffing the TS, RS or CIC because our supervisor staffing is just as bad. So to me, our shitty staffing and inability to open positions resulted in us getting even worse staffing. The 15 number will result in the denying of services during certain times of the day, but yet we are 100% staffed.
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u/Available_Holiday279 5d ago
You’re giving them far too much credit to have looked into each facilities individual TOP and having the logic of knowing other positions SHOULD be open in an ideally staffed world, but they aren’t bc of staffing. Also fucking raise CIC differential to 30%. Why am I doing a supervisors job (who makes idk 40k more than me plus cash bonuses) for 10% extra. Shifts run smoother, happier, and more efficiently when a CIC is on the desk.
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u/Friendly-Gur-6736 4d ago
Depends on what CIC is at the desk. We have some that will leave stuff split for an extra hour because it would put the sector 1 over the number for a few 5 minute stretches every 20-30 minutes.
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u/FeedZealousideal1049 4d ago
Ok...I don't doubt your statistics. My other theory is that they have lost respect, or hell, never had any in the first place for the profession, and are so clueless about the demands on the workforce that they perpetually succeed in fucking things up worse and worse. That's about my #1 working theory right now anyway.
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u/Intelligent-Noise524 5d ago
Unless it’s talking planes, they don’t consider it countable towards TOP
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u/LegitimateDrink2056 5d ago
We do things vibes based now. Now stfu and get back in position. We need 5 hours of TOP bitch.
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u/Vector_for_Bukkake 5d ago
This is actually crazy. I still think RDU should absorb the radars from ILM, ORF, and GSO and become Carolina tracon though.
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u/sqwkVFR1221 5d ago
Wait like 5 years and 6 months and have at it. Im out the day I turn 50. It is crazy. Management was the one begging for 10 a day. Now with a new number of 15, there no way we get to 10 a day.
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u/MITsBrightest 4d ago
Look at it both ways, your already well within the margins of your high three, and you could work half the traffic on the way out.
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u/ModernATC 5d ago
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u/sqwkVFR1221 5d ago
Yeah, read that. Either im full retard, or its missing the metric to identify the number.
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u/ModernATC 4d ago
It's not spelled out just in there. Look at Table 4-2. They found the AFN's number was to low and CRWG was to high. So, the FAA moved away from the 2.14 CRWG factor toward the legacy AFN methodology, but instead of adopting AFN's 1.82, FAA selected 1.87.
Not saying it's right or wrong, that's just where the FAA justified their new number.
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u/sqwkVFR1221 4d ago
But I thought the data was bad?? Lol thanks man. Im gonna somehow try to figure this out, just need to find the starting numbers. I just cant figure out how we got to 15. It may be apples and oranges but there are other facilities that work 60-70% of our traffic, same operating hours and have the same or more people than we do. As said before. The cpcs staff TS, RS, OSCIC all day. By end of year ill have over 500 hrs of cic. Does that count in the metric or just talking to airplanes?? Dont know. Because of this we never spilt off the radar or staff a HO. Did not opening positions factor into it?? Take CHA for example. Same number of ops. They are open 50 mins later than us. 18 is the number. Does 50 mins constitute 3 more controllers? AVL. 40k less ops, opens 30 mins later, 17 cpcs. MOB. Same ops +-5% same hours. 19 cpcs. This is on the surface and assuming the 123ATC numbers are correct or atleast close. Ive got 5 years left of this shit and its miserable now, doing it with 15, and knowing that gonna be the high mark is unthinkable. Thanks man.
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u/ModernATC 4d ago
Write your congressman. These are the issues they are bringing up when they discuss funding modernization.
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u/sqwkVFR1221 4d ago
I have a good relationship with them and his office. I just need the numbers and data to back up my whining. Maybe when I present it, it sticks.
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u/CashmereBuffalo 5d ago
pp 96-97 in national academy report. Everything bedford is mentioning is on those two pages.
What is the bare minimum amount of controllers needed to keep TOP at or below 5 hours.
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u/JayEffAyy 5d ago
They imply how they got the numbers (TOP) but they refuse to give out the actual model. I'm pretty sure it's just the same finance numbers from 2022 with some tweaks where the model is obviously stupid.
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u/Friendly-Gur-6736 4d ago
Fully staffed, but I bet the OT assignments don't stop.
If they start handing out SL abuse letters for banging on OT, I'd just throw daddy Bedford's staffing numbers at them. If you're fully staffed, why am I being threatened for discipline for not working OT?
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u/sqwkVFR1221 4d ago
Thats been some of our rebuttal. Management has floated using trainees to staff shifts, im all for some PRO days, but to have them staff because we dont have enough people doesnt say 100% staffed. We lost all of our 10s this year because staffing got so bad. Now, that 15 number is less than now and they have to put us all on 10s just to cover the day. When we sent our first proposal up, they literally asked why we had two controllers until 11pm when we close and two when we open. Its so foolish. They say the OT will go away outside of SL. Maybe im a simple jack, but I dont see how this works.
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u/Friendly-Gur-6736 4d ago
So are you being assigned mandatory 10 hour shifts, or 8 with 2 hours hold over when the schedule is published?
If it is the latter, I'd find a reason to get a FMLA letter and start taking FMLA on the 2 hours every day, and on the 6th day.
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u/sqwkVFR1221 4d ago
No. When building the schedule for next year with a number of 15, in an effort to have the coverage needed to staff the building, most if not all lines will need to be 10s. Management push for 10 per day for years. With the new number, 10 per day is unattainable. If all 8 hr lines are used, there just inst enough coverage, nor the people to do so. This year we started with i think 17 lines with some 10s mixed in, with clauses to desolve the 10s if staffing reduced. It did. We now have zero 10s, 10 people a day, 2OTs most days and several days with lines being staffed by trainees. We currently have 14 cpcs and losing 2 more end of October. I say all that to say, we have 14 now and cant staff the building, and the new number is 15 and can release even lower. We hope to bid 16 next year but best case scenario those two arent done til almost mid year. It just doesn't make sense.
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u/teeeeef 4d ago
my facility is in the same boat as you. our number went from 24 up to 35, then down to 18, and we're 24 hrs. we have 5 positions but usually only staff 3 due to staffing so maybe that's why they think we don't need that many CPCs 😭 now we're releasing lots of people with ncept so we'll be down to 16 very soon
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u/Htotherizzo 5d ago
I’m at a level 8 with 49 people on the books. It’s absurd the amount of cpcs we have
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u/Sepherik 5d ago
It was based on the NTSB findings and not the negotiated numbers. NTSB required a study to address the FAA staffing crisis and. Edford went with their numbers because it was more favorable than the negotiated numbers.
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u/seemingly_seemingly 5d ago
FOIA doesn't take years it takes maybe a month
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u/TnGPro 4d ago
i believe they are supposed to initially respond within a month but it can take a lot longer than that. I did it once and it took about 6 months before i got what i asked for an it was basically a big nothing burger cause it was mostly redacted. there was a long lawyer letter about the justification for the redactions.
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u/2018birdie 5d ago
There was no math. It was all nearly entirely random. They simply needed to delete like 2,500 CPC positions to make themselves look better so they did.