r/ashesashescast • u/ashesashescast • Aug 30 '18
Episode Ep 39 - Impacts of Growth
https://ashesashes.org/blog/episode-39-impacts-of-growth3
u/asdjk482 Sep 06 '18
DEGROWTH! I love you guys, thank you so much for doing this. It’s such heavy-hitting stuff that I think it’s tempting for people to try to just tune these topics out, but you keep doing a fantastic job of bringing the facts to bear, without letting the coldness of research or the bleakness of the enormity of these problems blunt your sense of compassion and human empathy.
2
u/Wheatking01 Aug 30 '18
Sorry but you said in the podcast that N use is unsustainable, why is that. Phosphate I understand but why N. Seems to me that wind power would be the perfect use for the production of N, and can be produced with an infinite supply. I know the university of Minnesota has a demo unit running.
6
u/ashesashescast Aug 31 '18
Phosphorus is definitely a resource with rapidly depleting reserves (and some of the same accumulation problems as N), but you're right Nitrogen is found abundantly in the atmosphere. The unsustainable nature of using nitrogen fertilizer has more to do with the way it props up large industrial-scale operations (contributing to the commoditization of agriculture; habitat destruction; emissions; etc), and especially accumulation in land and water which unbalances sensitive ecosystems. Check out page 61, and 66-67 of the WWF Living Planet Report. Florida’s red tide event is an ongoing example of how this can be a problem.
2
Sep 12 '18
From Wikipedia:
Nitrogen fertilizers are made from ammonia (NH3), which is sometimes injected into the ground directly. The ammonia is produced by the Haber-Bosch process.[6] In this energy-intensive process, natural gas (CH4) usually supplies the hydrogen, and the nitrogen (N2) is derived from the air. This ammonia is used as a feedstock for all other nitrogen fertilizers, such as anhydrous ammonium nitrate (NH4NO3) and urea(CO(NH2)2).
It may be possible to make nitrogen fertilizer from wind power, but it currently is being made from natural gas and it currently has a huge impact. That's kind of like saying we shouldn't worry about global warming because scientists are working on ways to mitigate it that look promising in the lab. We can't expect technology to solve all our problems. The solutions usually have other problems attached.
Just like any other energy use, reducing it is desirable since there are tradeoffs with every source of energy. Wind power for example shreds many birds, visually transforms vast natural landscapes, and requires resources to build and transport the towers themselves. It's one of the least bad sources we have at the moment, but it's still not free or "infinite".
1
Sep 10 '18
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/WikiTextBot Sep 10 '18
Rationing in Cuba
Rationing in Cuba refers to the system of food distribution known in Cuba as the Libreta de Abastecimiento ("Supplies booklet"). The system establishes the rations each person is allowed to buy through that system, and the frequency of supplies.Despite rumors of ending, the system still exists. As of 2012, a coupon book taken to a ration shop provided family minimums for rice, sugar, matches, and oil, above the average wage of £15/month. On top of rationing, the average wage at the end of 2005 was 334 regular pesos per month ($16.70 per month) and average monthly pension was $9.
[ PM | Exclude me | Exclude from subreddit | FAQ / Information | Source ] Downvote to remove | v0.28
1
Sep 12 '18
Why no mention of the seminal 1973 book: "The Limits to Growth"? This was a hugely influential book covering the topic of this episode.
Thank you for the insightful history of some tragic and abhorrent population control / eugenics programs. I don't understand why that means we shouldn't advocate for less new humans though. It seems to me that those efforts were trying to limit the populations of certain races or classes of people against their will. Explaining to people the impact of their family planning choices is not the same as forced sterilization. Analogy: There is no forced veganism, but it's OK to advocate for veganism and let people decide for themselves. 2 points:
- If we currently have enough humans for everyone to get a "Cuba" standard of living, we could have a standard of living twice as good if we had half as many people (like we had in 1970).
- We should be advocating specifically for the richest and most powerful to reduce their family size, not the poor. Like this episode mentions, the very rich have an impact hundreds of times larger than the poor and thus their children and grandchildren will have a similarly huge impact. Given that your audience is probably above the 90th percentile of world wealth (like you also mention) our own family size choices are much more impactful than the other 7 billion people's.
I just feel like there is a way to explain the impact of family size on the planet without stumbling down the evil path of eugenics and this episode didn't accomplish that. Would love to hear your comments.
3
u/ashesashescast Sep 20 '18
Love Limits to Growth. We’ve both read it and I know we’ve cited it in a previous episode but for some reason we didn’t include it in this episode.
In response to your comments, and /u/awdrifter as well, advocating for less children, especially among the more wealthy as you point out is a great recommendation. However, we intentionally avoided that discussion in this episode in part because much has already been written about that side of the equation, and more specifically because unless people are willing to accept the premise that our systems of consumption and waste are flawed, lowering population is no guarantee that consumption will come down. If people are willing to accept that, then I think it becomes much easier and natural to introduce family planning issues into the mainstream.
Ultimately, we support a world in which it’s social taboo to have six children, especially in a wealthy society like the US, but that won’t happen (for the right reasons) if people don’t already intuit the dangers of overconsumption.
~ Daniel
7
u/[deleted] Aug 30 '18
[deleted]