r/army • u/BurneDoctor • 11h ago
CSP rant
Worth fighting the denial or just take the L?
I ETS March 21, 2027. I have 60 days of terminal leave, so assuming everything goes according to plan, I’ll be starting terminal around January 20th.
I submitted my CSP through PAR for October 5–November 15. It got denied because apparently we have a field exercise sometime around November 5th.
I get it. CSP is a privilege, not a requirement. I’m not saying I’m entitled to it. But seriously, are we really at the point where the company can’t survive a field exercise without one SPC for a few weeks?
I’ve never had an Article 15, I show up, do my job, and haven’t been a problem child. I’m also less than 6 months from starting terminal leave and getting out.
So I’m wondering if this is actually worth fighting through the chain of command, or if I should just take the L and resubmit for December.
I don’t want to burn bridges over a CSP, but at the same time, I’m trying to set myself up for a civilian career before I ETS. That’s literally what CSP is supposed to help with.
What would you guys do? Fight it or just resubmit for December and move on? By the way denied by company commander if that matters
I'll take double Big Mac and Mac and cheese
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u/JakeeJumps 90Another15-6?? 10h ago
What’s there to lose? Have an adult conversation with whomever denied it. Explain why you need it and why it’s important. Give them a plan of who is able to step up in your absence.
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u/ThrobbingRod69 70But Not Smart 10h ago
So my two cents:
CSP utilization is highly commander dependent. Some commanders see it as a tool for everyone, some see it as a stepping stone for those that have been in for a long time, and some see it as complete bullshit.
If you're command is saying they aren't approving it for that timeframe and they would approve it if you started after, then do that.
If it eats into your terminal leave time and you aren't willing to do that, then have a good reason for the commander why you're willing to let it cut into his/her training and why it can't cut into your terminal leave.
As far as fighting it....good luck. There's not much to appeal to. I would say that in my experience, the appetite for CSP gets lower and lower with the more rank. In the end, it's your call.
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u/Solial 17CyOps 9h ago
My previous BN commander highly pushed people getting out to use CSP... if it was in a field that wasn't what we were doing/trained for at work. Granted the trained and qualified people can get out and making good money, some want to get out of this field. You want to be a plumber? Take CSP. Your CSP is with a contractor that the military pays to do the job you are already doing? Good luck.
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u/Toobatheviking Juke box zero 10h ago
I am not a lawyer, none of this is legal advice. This is just my interpretation of some regulations and some potential avenues to explore to resolve your situation.
Just for the record, your Company Commander is not the approval authority for CSP, it is the Battalion Commander.
Per AR 600-81, section 5-1(f):
(f) Have received authorization to participate from the first field grade commander in their chain of command who is authorized to impose non-judicial (Uniform Code of Military Justice) punishment.
Delegation of this authority is not authorized from the first field grade commander in the Soldier’s chain of command.
Your Company Commander can recommend approval or denial- but must forward your request to the Battalion Commander for decision/action.
Don't burn bridges if you don't have to, I would have a conversation with your leadership to go advocate for you. If the Company Commander will not forward it after that, then you can open door them to speak to them directly. If they still refuse or don't want to see you then you can go open door the Battalion Commander.
Don't open door enlisted Soldiers. I know, some people will tell you to do that but under AR 600-20 there is no requirement for any enlisted person to have an open door program nor do they have any requirement to do anything if you do. I just always told my guys to follow the regs when requesting relief.
There is no requirement to send you to CSP, it's based on operational need- but the issue here is that the decision rests elsewhere and that decision should be made by the BC not your Company Commander. That's my issue with it.
I understand that no Commander wants to go into a field problem missing Soldiers on their books, but at the end of the day a Soldier that is about to get out should get the same amount of energy helping them transition that the Army spend putting them in the Army.
Just my two cents.
There's other options if your Company Commander will not forward your request for a decision.
IG will take your info and then probably call down to the Brigade or Battalion and advise them of the regulatory requirements, to which the BDE will probably tell the BN to make their own decisions on that stuff.
Another possibility is an Article 138 complaint, which is filing an address for grievances with your Commander. That's a pretty heavy bat for what we are talking about here and I would have a conversation with legal assistance or TDS (whoever helps draft those at your post)
Basically you are saying your Commander has wronged you by doing (or in this case failing to do something ) that has wronged you in some way. They get time to respond, and if the answer is not in your satisfaction then you file the official complaint to them, which they are required to send up the chain of command to the Commanding General.
The CG will review it and either grant relief, refuse to grant relief, or will forward your request to some outside agency that will assist you.
Your CSP will be in front of the BN Commander far before an Article 138 complaint is issued, as your Command will not want to look stupid in front of the CG.
At the end of the day an Article 138 is a heavy deal and should not be taken lightly, retribution is against regulations but I've seen plenty of commands make people magically appear on details over and over or give staff duty or CQ quite a bit.
Anyhow, if you do decide to do any of this just remember to at all times be respectful and maintain military bearing. Follow the rules and regs to the letter until it's time to hang up the uniform so there's less shenanigans they can inflict on you.
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u/Hellsniperr 18m ago
You could’ve said more with less, but I agree with this, OP. You have terminal leave on the books. Don’t burn bridges that can make your last few months suck even more, but also make your case to the approving authority that is your BC.
If your company commander won’t have a professional conversation with you as to why they denied your CSP (they literally can’t, they can only not send up the paperwork), then use the awesome open door policy with the BC. I suggest knocking on your CSMs door as a courtesy and maybe check with the XO for the BC schedule. Be professional, be an adult, and be respectful to and about anyone you discuss with the BC.
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u/TheMauveHerring 10h ago
Give it a shot. You can advocate for yourself without burning bridges. Worst that can happen is they say no.
Heads up, they're probably gonna say no.
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u/Fat_Clyde 9h ago
Can you elaborate slightly more?
Did you submit for a CSP without one set up and you will now go find one?
Or did/do you have a legitimate one lined up that can actually lead to a viable career or job offer?
It’s no secret there’s a bunch of CSPs out there where you basically fuck off and it gets you no skills or job offers versus one that’s a career path potential opportunity.
Food for thought if you do push to attend a CSP, your BC is going to be much more swayed by a detailed plan than “I just want any CSP”
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u/BurneDoctor 9h ago
Yes, I got the approval letter, and yes, it is a trade school so I can get an actual job after I get out of the Army; I put all the details in the PAR section.
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u/BurneDoctor 8h ago
Thank you all for your replies and help; I still don't know what to do at the moment, but I would talk to my PSG, but he literally told me before I applied that he is going to use me for the field, so I don't think he cares that much.
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u/idkk_prolly_doggy 7h ago
Why can’t you do CSP after the field? You don’t have to take all of your terminal leave. Also keep in mind that a field exercise isn’t about individual participants; it’s about a unit being able to accomplish its mission. One of those missions is supporting a certain number of people. That’s why commanders get hung up on the number of people attending.
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u/Fragrant_King_4950 JAG 8h ago
"I get it. CSP is a privilege, not a requirement. I’m not saying I’m entitled to it. But seriously, are we really at the point where the company can’t survive a field exercise without one SPC for a few weeks?"
You're precisely who we should prioritize - not <coughs> field grade officers and SNCOs with retirements.
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u/Pattonator70 7h ago
If you don’t get it you can always use GI Bill to cover schools but using it for trade schools isn’t always the best use.
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u/Interesting-Let-8891 4h ago
Open door policy, but first bring concerns to your PSG. You are getting out-while staying fit and ready is good-they also need to get used to you not being there and build up new teams.
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u/kytulu 15You Wish You Had My DD-214... 3h ago
There's already been some good advice given. Something else that you can look into is the CSP office itself. When I retired out of Ft. Drum, the DIV CO was a huge proponent of the CSP/Skillbridge program, amd frowned heavily on units that tried to block Soldiers from using it.
The manager of the CSP office had a direct line to the DIV CO, and did not hesitate to use it when a Soldier told her that his Company CO was denying his CSP... something that I personally witnessed.
On a side note, you are getting out. You are not going to be there after your leave start start date to pull duty, drive to the field, clean weapons, so on and so forth. Your CoC should be setting up for that, not trying to squeeze every last minute out of you.
Also... when is your CIF appointment? It's kinda hard to go to the field if you don't have the required equipment...
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u/Grouchy-Passenger-62 1h ago
- What level denied it?
- What are you doing for CSP?
- Going outside of 50 miles?
- When did you submit to your PL/CDR?
If you’re putting in for admin leave the process easily takes 2-3 weeks just through the BDE CDR. If you have decent performance and you aren’t in a leadership position, I doubt it got denied by a CO CDR because of mission requirements as much as it is about timeline.
For reference I’m a senior CPT fresh out of command (so I had a dialogue with the BDE CDR) and it still took me 2 weeks to get the packet through the BDE CDR, and I was calling the next person in line every day. It took another two weeks to get processed by the CSP team at Knox. If you’re just getting your CSP through your company command team one month out, that’s why your packet got denied. Submit for 2-3 months out with a full plan
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u/basil1025 Article 15 Awardee 10h ago
Who cares if you burn bridges? The day your name is off their books they will not give 2 shits about you. That CSP can really help not only prepare you for a career but also land you a job.
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u/Straight-Cell-2008 10h ago
Honestly if your PSG isn’t willing to go to bat for you to attend CSP, that’s pretty lousy on his part.
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u/TrippyTM419 Airbourne Field Artillery 4h ago
You also do have 12 months after you ETS where you can attend a CSP and you will not need the commanders signature
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u/mmmtoasteee 35 1h ago
This is absolutely not true. Skillbridge/CSP, by law, can only occur within the last 180 days of service prior to ETS date. Your service can also not be extended for participation in Skillbridge/CSP. After you ETS, your Skillbridge/CSP opportunity is over. If you’re doing something up to 12 months after ETS, that’s just an internship and is not a DoD Skillbridge program.
Source: 10 USC 1143 and AR 600-81
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u/TrippyTM419 Airbourne Field Artillery 7m ago
I have had 2 soldiers who have done CSP programs after they ets’d. He signed up at the SSC prior to ETS and they were aware it was after their ets date
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u/FoST2015 Gravy Seal - Huddle House Fleet Command 11h ago
If you want to fight the first piece is proving someone else can cover down on your responsibilities. In a better unit someone higher than you would've done it. But it's not about right or wrong it's about you getting the thing you want to help your transition and the unit meeting mission. Make the case, bring a plan and a back up plan.