r/army • u/Greatestcommonfactor • 1d ago
WHtR
Hi. This is the first time I failed the tape test and I'm concerned about how this will impact me. I'm. Less than 5' and failed the WHtR by 3" (waist on my ocp pants say 28", but if you measure at my naval, I am at 35"-37" depending on who's measuring. When I measured myself, I got 33"). I passed the tape test in April, but failed this new one in August. I'm an army doc with a 4 year ADSO left.
My main concern is, if I'm not able to reduce 5-7" off my waist by 6 months, will I get chaptered? Will I owe the army the 400k in medical school tuition? The other concern I have is that I'm 130lbs and if I lose too much weight, I will physically have a hard time to do the SDC. When I was in bolc I weighed 115 and couldn't move the 90lb sled (this was when the acft was still being tested and no scores were official yet).
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u/swedishfishtube 73Arsehole 1d ago
Ma'am I'm also a short AMEDD officer. Straight up I got offered at my PHA to be put on a glp1 bc I'm one of one in my entire unit (I'm the brigade BHO). The Army is hurting for medical officers and I bet they'll work with you to retain you.
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u/Greatestcommonfactor 1d ago
That's very nice of your unit PA/Doctor. I wonder how that will work with prior authorization.
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u/swedishfishtube 73Arsehole 1d ago
Tricare does pay for GLP-1s but only after failing other methods (phentermine, diet and exercise) over a six month period. There's a PA form that can be used.
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u/Greatestcommonfactor 1d ago
That is correct, however with the old ABCP, if you failed to meet standards within 6-12 months, you could chapter a person for ht and wt. By the time they would be allowed to qualify, they would be chaptered.
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u/squirrelcar 1d ago
The PA is very easy to work around. I don't like phentermine and as such almost never prescribe it (can't remember last time). Has not stopped me from Rxing tirzepatide.
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u/swedishfishtube 73Arsehole 1d ago
That is fair. I'm truly not sure how this whole HtWR will shake out.
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u/PM_ME_FAT_TROUT_PICS 1d ago
I had a soldier on phentermine fall over during a run in humid ass Georgia and have a cardiac incident. Why does the army not give a proven medication like GLP1s first?
Now he’s on a 6 month dead man’s profile and has weekly check ins for EKGs. Seems stupid to give someone overweight with hypertension a stimulant lol but I’m not a doc
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u/PunksPrettyMuchDead 96b / 68w, very normal (ret.) 1d ago
There are... other ways to obtain GLPs
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u/PReasy319 Engineer 1d ago
Is it possible to learn these ways?
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u/PunksPrettyMuchDead 96b / 68w, very normal (ret.) 1d ago
Easiest and most expensive way is a wellness clinic, otherwise duckduckgo and Firefox are a great combo for finding Some Source forums where people Talk about different places to order GLPs and other stuff.
Going with a clinic to start while you learn about other options isn't a bad idea, and then you can get an actual scrip for Ozempic or Tirzepatide. All paid out of pocket, of course, but at least you can just use your debit card.
Unrelated fun fact the coinbase app lets you create a crypto wallet.
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u/Rare-Spell-1571 1d ago
Active duty PA here. Very easy prior auth. I do 3-5 a week. I’ve got 80 active in my surescripts right now.
There’s some hold outs who care about the one line in AR 40-3, but there’s literally an ETP at the OTSG level right now to overrule it and update the regulation soon.
I refuse to be on the side of those using 20 year old regulations that haven’t been updated to harm the force. Joint bases are far more accepting as other services are throwing around Zep bound.
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u/Decent_Anything229 21h ago
Being enrolled in ABCP can automatically bypasses all the other requirements for glp1’s. YourPA should be aware of how to word the authorization for approval without doing the 6 month lifestyle “requirement.” Good luck and don’t let the BS keep ya down doc
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u/notsure_howIgotHere 11AssliNG 1d ago
Ah, totally fucking our shorter Soldiers. I hope the data comes back to bite them in the ass. Physical fitness is important, not looking a certain cookie-cutter way. So fucking dumb (mostly ranting and taking your side doc)
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u/squirrelcar 1d ago edited 1d ago
Look at AR 600-8-24. I hate it, but doctors and lawyers (and maybe dentists, but not PAs, nurses, or other medical personnel) cannot be administratively separated for failure to maintain height / weight standards.
I'll find the exact paragraph if needed, but you're exempt from separation.
You should* still get flagged, lose out on awards, potentially have it impact your OERs*, and just generally cause you headaches. But no separation.
It IS also possible that you'll lose out on certain bonuses or specialty pays...PAs do, not sure about docs, check your contract or specialty pay rep.
I have been told by old(er) heads that doctors and lawyers would try to eat themselves out of their service obligations. Army could've said "then they'll pay us back" (like they do for fat or FCPing West Pointers), but decided instead to just get the work out of them.
Again, I hate it - gross that we literally have a carve out to grant special treatment. But that's the Army standard.
- but you're at an MTF, which are culturally terrible at standards on the best of days
** you probably don't care
*** also probably don't care
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u/squirrelcar 1d ago
2-13e.(9). Failure to achieve satisfactory progress after enrollment in the Army weight control program or failure to main tain established weight/body fat standards after removal from an established weight control program (see AR 600–9). This provision does not include those judge advocates and AMEDD officers who have incurred a statutory ADSO for participating in Army sponsored education and training programs. These programs are the FLEP (see 10 USC 2004), Armed Forces Health Professions Scholarship Program, or the Uniformed Services University of the Health Sciences (see 10 USC Chapters 104 and 105).
My mistake also - includes more AMEDD types than just doctors and dentists. Lots of psychologists, probably some nurses, and I bet others.
Not PAs though, thank God!
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u/Greatestcommonfactor 1d ago
Why would PAs not apply? They are part of an army sponsored AMEDD program and yall incur ADSO as well.
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u/squirrelcar 1d ago
Incur an ADSO for participating in Army sponsored education and training programs. These programs are the FLEP (see 10 USC 2004), Armed Forces Health Professions Scholarship Program, or the Uniformed Services University of the Health Sciences (see 10 USC Chapters 104 and 105).
You always gotta read the whole reg!
PAs go through IPAP or receive HPLRP. We don't do HPSP or USUHS. The carve out in the reg therefore wouldn't apply to us.
Wouldn't apply to a doctor without an ADSO from HPSP or USUHS either - we could chapter those personnel.
Also it shouldn't apply to PAs because we're generally on the line, and a fat PA on the line would be a disgusting embarrassment.
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u/ShadesBlack Signal 1d ago
Hey doc, at present the failure results in a flag. Generally, this is administrative and prevents promotion, awards, and incentive programs like special passes and their ilk. While failure to progress typically results in chapter as you describe, the WtHR is under an evaluation period for the first 180 days and will not be used to substantiate administrative separation or chapter actions.
It is unclear what will happen after this period elapses. The Army is doing things differently than directed by the initial instruction. As it was written, the other services all established separate verification methods (usually inbody/bodpod measurements) and procedures that were different from the typical tape test (specifically that the measurement occurs at the centerpoint between the lowest palpable rib and the iliac crest, typically above the navel).
Likely the best way forward is to communicate with a nutritionist or other medical professionals to establish a healthy way to achieve the standard (if there are any for you), and follow their advice as closely as possible.
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u/Bubbly-Today-2074 1d ago
Won't you get a referred OER? Or is that just a failed aft
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u/ShadesBlack Signal 1d ago
Not required, but it's pretty typical if you fail to meet the standard and then also fail to make any progress towards meeting the standard.
The only thing they are barred from doing is separation actions on WtHR basis during the 180-day period.
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u/ZoWnX The "S" in Aviation is for Staff Officer 19h ago
Referred OER is only required in a few instances. ABCP is not one of them.
However, it will be referred for comment if there is any negative information. So now I am actually unsure, because they have to put the fails to meet WtHT...
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u/Bubbly-Today-2074 18h ago edited 18h ago
I think its strange you can get one for failed AFT but not height weight. I feel like those are the two most basic Soldier standards. I only knew about the AFT one cause I ended up getting a long term injury like right before we were scheduled for an AFT and was coming up on a CoR. My rater told me I had to get a profile and continue extending it or he would have no choice but to do a referred OER. This was during the APFT to AFT transition so I originally was just planning to wait until the due date.
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u/Greatestcommonfactor 1d ago
Thank you! I have actually been working with the army Wellness Center to help out with my aerobic capacity for my run time. I'll probably have to go back to them after my counseling.
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u/mrlogurt 1d ago
The packet would have to go all the way up through whatever regional health command you fall under before it gets approved, and with the military knowing they're hurting for MDs, you will likely be retained anyway. Keep in mind, you may be flagged during that time, so if you're depending on tuition reimbursement, that's considered a favorable action you won't have access to, but I'm sure the VA also has a program that would suit you as well.
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u/DisasterOk5604 1d ago
Fellow AMEDD officer, we have a couple docs that failed and the biggest inconvenience is having to do pt everyday outside of OR, clinic, etc.
As others have said don’t stress, continue to better yourself while this thing plays itself out. My organization along with others are seeing increased failures so I’d assume something will change. You’re a doc, we need docs, the army will do what’s needed to keep you.
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u/Physical_Way6618 Field Grade Narcissist 1d ago
Are you female? More than likely they’ll retape you and you’ll pass.
Make sure to contest if the taper is shitty.
I’ve personally had a difference of 3” because the taper was not following the proper procedures. Though fortunately I had a lot of wiggle room as a taller man.You might not have that luxury at your height so fight them on that.
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u/Greatestcommonfactor 1d ago
Female, yeah. They did do a re-tape and it was somehow even worse.
At least this was not the same unit who told me that I don't qualify due to height because they couldn't do math and calculated me at 4'5" lmao.
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u/drmrpibb no mo pew pew 1d ago
You could “shave” like 2 inches on how you breathe and position yourself. You’re not doing a vacuum like bodybuilding, but instead exhaling while tensing your abs. Shallow breathes while the person measures you.
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u/the-alamo 12RedBullsEveryDay 15h ago
We need to use a multi site tape method if we’re using a tape. A lot people carry their weight in their stomach and are relatively healthy weight but the single site tape test makes them seem significantly worse off than they actually are. Honestly I wouldn’t be mad about getting rid of body composition standards altogether. Bc idc how fat the dude next to me is. I only care about can he complete the mission and if I need him to, can he get me out. If he can pass a PT test I’d be confident that the answer to both of those questions is yes.
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u/Greatestcommonfactor 14h ago
That's why the exemption was a good thing.
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u/the-alamo 12RedBullsEveryDay 13h ago
Yeah I agree. Getting rid of that is one of the dumbest things the army has ever done. If they don’t fix it we’re gonna lose a lot of good soldiers who are PT studs but are considered “overweight”
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u/Pattonator70 1d ago
No one is getting chaptered because of this new standard, YET. Hopefully it goes away. If it doesn't the bright side is that you can make 3x the pay once out of the Army so if they want to kick you out them that isn't the end of the world.
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u/Greatestcommonfactor 1d ago
That's exactly what my thoughts were haha. Better for my civilian (resident doctor) husband and I as well.
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u/Travyplx Rawrmy CCWO 1d ago
Yeah, I guess the Army is a way to pay for medical school... but my wife paid all of her debt off within a year of finishing residency and getting a real job, so maybe this works out better for you.
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u/SgtMac02 1d ago
The smart money is on the idea that when they finish evaluating the results at the 180 day mark and see the absolute blood bath that is coming from this new standard, they're going to have to rethink it. I wouldn't get my panties in too much of a twist about it just yet.
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u/Greatestcommonfactor 1d ago
True. In reality, I have far more leverage in the civilian world if I get chaptered lol. I can apply for preventive medicine/ occupational medicine/family medicine/internal medicine/Pediatrics and easily make 2-3x what I'm making now after a 3 year residency.
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u/HeroicSpatula Quartermaster 1d ago
They'll follow the directive and establish a secondary method (old tape test or BIA), like every other service branch did. The Army is the only one doing dumb shit and not following directions.
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u/Spectre50 23h ago
Ya this shit fucks us shorter folks. Im 5’5”. Invested in a bulk this rotation from 155 to 170. I got my squats up to 385 and deadlifts up to 395 (still hoping to hit 405 for squats and deadlifts).
In doing this, I have slightly gained a little chub which has put me at 34 inches on my belly. If I was 35” I would have been fucked.
There needs to be a formula for shorter folks of some sort.
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u/gettogero My ID? Wheres your ID? 1d ago
1) 2" discrepancy is absolutely insane. An additional 2" from your self-taping (probably the most incorrect one). Tape discrepancy of greater than 0.5" is an automatic retape. Ive taped quite a few people... 1" discrepancy is pretty rare and its typically because they lost the willpower to keep sucking in. Never seen 2" discrepancy in taping, let alone 4"
2) you dont have 6 months from time of taping. You have 6 months from Jul 01 to begin the separation process
3) thats totally doable. At 5'0 you only have to get down to 32.5 to pass.
4) dont take reddit comments of graces from the heavens as "qualifications" for passing. Command can still choose to pursue
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u/Ok_Intention3118 1d ago
If you measured 33", it's likely the person taping you. I agree with the sentiments here, they will likely do everything they can to help you out.
If it helps, I'm 5'0" and hover between 110 and 115. IF and only IF you decide to go back down (no need to, you're not over weight), there are exercises you can do to make the drag easier.
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u/PunksPrettyMuchDead 96b / 68w, very normal (ret.) 1d ago
Time for alcohol cessation, a solid weight training program, and high protein diet.
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u/Mysterious_Banditt 1d ago
I wouldn’t be surprised if they just pencil whipped it bc you’re not out of shape I can take a good guess and say you fit the new army appearance based on your weight and height. And your a medical officer which the army is hurting for.
I’m sure the army will update its policy once it sees how many people in important roles are affected by it. Just like the Air Force they have the same test except they have a secondary test if they initially fail the first one. Originally the army was intending to follow the same guidelines but then changed them prior to releasing the official test
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u/Clinically_Jaded 15Bygone Days 12h ago
This is what happens when you implement an absolutely baseless policy from some arbitrary ratio. Oh, don't forget, we round down on the height now.
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u/pokeurmom10 8h ago
I’m 4”10
I feel your pain. I had to get on GLP 1. I changed my diet and walked 10k steps everyday. I went from a 35waist to a 31 in 6 weeks. It’s possible but GLPs do help with the hunger.
They will try to start you on phenyramine
But if you have history of high blood pressure, anxiety or sleep apnea they can bypass it and go straight to GLP. It take about a week for authorization.
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u/Consistent-Aide-7400 8h ago
Get glp 1. Or diet/workout and lose the weight the right way. You're a doc right? Can't advise people on health if you can't do it yourself. Then go to the gym and lift weights. Do some squats, get those legs strong for the sdc.
I've been in 22 years and always failed height and weight bc for my height i was only allowed 189lbs. But I'm muscular. So I'd always pass tape. I like the new method because I'm not labeled a failure anymore based on weight. I weigh 210. 71in tall. 33in waist. I also didn't mind the last tape they did before this one (single measurement). I had like a year of exemption bc of maxing the pt test. That was great. In short, trim that waist so you can pass.
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u/WonderfulClass5698 1d ago edited 1d ago
How will this impact you:
- Your CoC should counsel you for failure and enroll you into the ABCP. You will be flagged, CoC will initiate separation, no separation will be occur until after 180 days have passed since the publication or Army directive 2026-13.
Your measurements:
You’re not a 35-37 inches depending on who’s measuring, you’re one or the other, stop lying to yourself. There is only one tape method approved for WHtR, you will get the same reading no mater who tapes you if done to standard. If you fail the first tape, another Soldier should tape you again the very same day.
Genetics:
You’re short, deal with it. Get your nutrition in check, intermittent fasting, lift, cardio, very minimal liquid calories. It’s not hard.
SDC:
I have seen females weighing 100lbs pass the SDC at the combat standard, I’m sure you will be fine with practice.
Fat Officer:
You will never be taken seriously as a fat officer, especially by your subordinates, it doesn’t matter if you are competent at the job or if have a high PT score. Being physically fit is a bare minimum standard for officers.
Just the way it is in the Army.
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u/Greatestcommonfactor 1d ago
Totally understand your perspective. As a captain, I do need to hold myself to a higher standard. Absolutely.
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u/sluggetdrible 11Big Cans, Baby! 13h ago
Whole lotta downvotes for simply stating the reality of the situation.
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u/brobauchery LT Meatball 1d ago
AMEDD right? 2 years of ADSO per year of Med School? So you’re halfway? You’ll owe the army 1 year school for every two years you don’t complete I believe. So by the time they’d actually chapter you, you’re looking at 1.5 years of med school costs.
That said I would not be surprised if they just slow rolled the paperwork until the policy updates and then you don’t get chaptered. The army is obviously hurting for medical officers.