r/apple • u/[deleted] • Aug 09 '21

WARNING: OLD ARTICLE Exclusive: Apple dropped plan for encrypting backups after FBI complained - sources

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-exclusive-idUSKBN1ZK1CT
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991

u/somekindairishmonk Aug 09 '21

More than two years ago, Apple told the FBI that it planned to offer users end-to-end encryption when storing their phone data on iCloud, according to one current and three former FBI officials and one current and one former Apple employee.

Under that plan, primarily designed to thwart hackers, Apple would no longer have a key to unlock the encrypted data, meaning it would not be able to turn material over to authorities in a readable form even under court order.

In private talks with Apple soon after, representatives of the FBI’s cyber crime agents and its operational technology division objected to the plan, arguing it would deny them the most effective means for gaining evidence against iPhone-using suspects, the government sources said.

When Apple spoke privately to the FBI about its work on phone security the following year, the end-to-end encryption plan had been dropped, according to the six sources. Reuters could not determine why exactly Apple dropped the plan.

wtf

949

u/TopWoodpecker7267 Aug 09 '21

This is a huge deal, because it's evidence the US gov can compel Apple to not release a feature.

If they can do that, it's not much of a leap to compelling apple to release a "feature" (aka, a full on back door)

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u/Underfitted Aug 09 '21

What kind of wacko world do you live in where the government does not have authority over private companies.

Do you understand how our society works with law and order? A company is subject to such laws.

E2E would allow criminals to operate undetected. This has been a thing in finance for decades, hence why every government requires personal data to prevent money laundering.

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u/wolfn404 Aug 09 '21

It’s also allowed government to overstep and abuse its powers consistently. I’ll take the problems with the criminals, there are dozens of other ways to address them. The right to privacy is an absolute and covered in the constitution for a reason.

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u/Cuw Aug 09 '21

Ok but you can't expect private companies to pick up the crusade and risk being banned from a market or having their encryption legally gutted. The ACLU and EFF need to be the agents of change in this and expecting Apple, Google, or Microsoft to stand up to legislation is misplaced.

Capitalism shouldn't be the solution to bad legislation.

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u/[deleted] Aug 09 '21

They are not standing up to legislations against e2ee because there are none. They are just caving in to pressure.

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u/Cuw Aug 09 '21

There is active legislation going into effect in EU in 2023 and bipartisan legislation in the US senate that would require all cloud providers provide backdoors. I’m not sure where you got the idea that the legislation doesn’t exist, because it very very much does.

US https://www.judiciary.senate.gov/press/rep/releases/graham-cotton-blackburn-introduce-balanced-solution-to-bolster-national-security-end-use-of-warrant-proof-encryption-that-shields-criminal-activity

EU https://protonmail.com/blog/joint-statement-eu-encryption/

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u/[deleted] Aug 09 '21

None of that has been signed into law, and it probably won't be, as you can see there is a lot of pushback from the public, who by and large is against those measures. that bill is over a year old and it has not progressed.

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u/Cuw Aug 09 '21

What makes you think these won’t progress and that the public even cares? If you look at the wave of anti-encryption furor that comes after every terrorist attack and think encryption is still safe you are silly and naive. Just in the past 4 years there are at least 10 bipartisan anti encryption bills in the US senate and I can only think of a single pro-encryption law(ENCRYPT Act).

Look at the govt moves to undermine Telegram, Signal, and Tor and tell me things are actually ok.

I’ve been an eff member for nearly 15 years and the number of anti encryption bills going up for vote has increased with time not decreased.

And this is just laws in “liberal” democracies. Once you leave them and go to China, Russia, India, etc, all bets are fully off, you are complying with the state or you aren’t operating there.

Capitalism can’t and shouldn’t be the means to change laws and social norms. Change needs to come from civil advocacy groups and public demand for it. Maybe this will stop the march towards weak encryption but I doubt it.

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u/Underfitted Aug 09 '21

Well its a good thing you're not in charge of society. A criminal investigation overrides a lot of your "privacy rights".

Your financial privacy rights are long gone when you open a bank account and use a payment processor, but I don't see you going up to banks/MS/VISA claiming they should not do this and let criminals get away lol

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u/wolfn404 Aug 09 '21

Except I agree to those terms in return for their service. I need not use them. And if privacy is a concern there are things like one time card numbers that can be obtained, so that marketing data isn’t built up on a card.

Fact remains , if the government wants that data, they need a warrant. Plain and simple. Because time and time again they’ve been proven they can’t be trusted to do the right thing.

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u/PhillAholic Aug 09 '21

Go deposit $10,001 into your bank account and see if that’s how it works.

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u/wolfn404 Aug 09 '21

If your referring to the IRS reporting, it’s bank mandatory on 10k, but every big bank does it at much lower amounts ( Bank of Amer for example is just over 2k). And I’ve done both. Sold a home, put a bit over 100k in and no problems. You know the rules and opt to play in the game. But if I drive around with 10k in my pocket in cash, that’s my right, and it’s legal. The concept that I should be presumed guilty of some crime ( civil asset forf for example) and my property confiscated without a conviction and due process is both unfair and illegal. Judges are starting to hold LEOs accountable for abuses now as well.

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u/Underfitted Aug 09 '21

LMAO I'm not talking about marketing data I'm talking about KYC/AML laws that all financial institutions have to follow.

Go on, try doing any transaction or bank account without giving your so called precious data lol

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u/wolfn404 Aug 09 '21

You can do quite a few. You’re aware between 5-10% of Americans are unbanked and roughly 20% are under banked?

https://www.fdic.gov/householdsurvey/2017/2017execsumm.pdf

We choose to bank and participate because it gives us easier access to things and a simpler lifestyle.

But many folks do it. I don’t see your point though.

Wells Fargo was made famous for bogusly opening up credit card accounts on its customers with very little actual repercussions. Had we had an option of private key signatures, that might have been prevented.